Nationalism is not Good

[IceBlaZe]

Europeans hating Jewish folk is racism.

True.

Jewish folk hating all Europeans is racsim.

Depends. It can be just hostility based on political agenda.
Europeans are not really a race, a religion nor an ethnic group, but due to the increasing unity they share more or less close-by political views. And I'm taking a risk saying this, it's very general, I know that the Austrian are different from the English, and German politics different from Italian by a mile, etc etc.

Anyway, Curt, I never said I hate Europeans, I never preached against Europeans.

So where is the Double Standard?

 

[CurtSibling]

You just displayed you skill for double standards.

Racism is filth, anytime.

And don't try to tell me otherwise, boy.

 

[Damien]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Damien, your just not getting it, hating people for WHAT they are is wrong, it's NEVER justified, no matter what some nation is doing.

>>>I agree,those burning synagogues are the ones who disagree.

Iceblaze is right, and it's what I was alluding too, Europe is FAR from progressive, it's attitude is REGRESSIVE.

Regressive?Gay weddings with the same rights as heterosexuals,the right to vote for non-eu foreigners in more and more countries,the right to smoke cannabis in many countries and such laws are regressive?

 

[newfangle]

Originally posted by Damien


Regressive?Gay weddings with the same rights as heterosexuals,the right to vote for non-eu foreigners in more and more countries,the right to smoke cannabis in many countries and such laws are regressive?

Other things that make Europe progressive:
1) Implementing Kyoto with no financial loss. Investing in renewable and clean energy.
2) Not participating in usless military endevours, such as Iraq.
3) Are not as dependant on primitive technologies as Americans, Canadians, and Australians.
4) Much more open with art, much more devoted to science (not as much as that silly religion business getting in the way).
5) Ability for many nations to band together with a common goal, hoping to eventually disband the archaic ideal of nationalism.

 

[IceBlaZe]

You just displayed you skill for double standards.

Racism is filth, anytime.

And don't try to tell me otherwise, boy.

Your lack of ability to show where I did say anything against Europeans is enough to shed ridiculous light on your post.

I never showed any double standard, not here.

And don't try to tell me otherwise, "lad".

 

[IceBlaZe]

I'm not sure a law that allows to smoke Cannabis is progressive.
It's depends on the view of the individual.

Personally, I think that the free usage of Drugs in some European states made them centers of crime and filth and regresses the order and hegemony they had in the past.

But that's just me.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Other things that make Europe progressive:
1) Implementing Kyoto with no financial loss. Investing in renewable and clean energy.

That's progressive, but not neccesarily a sign for most progressive.

2) Not participating in usless military endevours, such as Iraq.

Opinion.

3) Are not as dependant on primitive technologies as Americans, Canadians, and Australians.

Depends where and on what category.
Again you show your microscopic view of things.

4) Much more open with art, much more devoted to science (not as much as that silly religion business getting in the way).

More open to art / Devoted to science than who?

5) Ability for many nations to band together with a common goal, hoping to eventually disband the archaic ideal of nationalism.

Or the usage of bashing other countries policies in order to diverge the crowd's eyes from local conflicts and problems.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
You just displayed you skill for double standards.

Racism is filth, anytime.

And don't try to tell me otherwise, boy.

I guess that's not what he's telling you.
Hating Europeans is not really racism, as Europeans are no race (and yes, racist definitions are stupid anyway), so there's a difference to anti-semitism.
Anyway, hating people for being Europeans is not better than racism.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
hating people for WHAT they are is wrong, it's NEVER justified, no matter what some nation is doing.

That's true of course, but that doesn't mean there are no differences in the "reasons" why people are hated.

Iceblaze is right, and it's what I was alluding too, Europe is FAR from progressive, it's attitude is REGRESSIVE.

Now that is a pretty heavy statement, especially without any special reason given. Regressive compared to what? Since when? And why?

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by newfangle
Nationalism is fading. Its an Adam Smith- era invention. People don't feel proud of their countries any more. There will always be splits in the populice. I know I am very much an idealist, but imagine a world with all ethnic and political borders removed. Also, humanity would be better prepared for an alien invasion/enslavement, which will happen in a few years I assume .

I just read this for the first time. Isn't it fairer to say "a Napoleonic-era invention?" I realize that means that you can't link nationalism to capitalism quite as easily, but fair IS fair.

I highly reccommend you fork over the $35.00 it will cost you to pick up a book called "Britons," newfangle, by Colley (Linda Colley? Can't remember). Very illuminating on how nationalism is created, especially when you compare its conclusions to our debate long ago about Vimy Ridge .

R.III

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe


[quote about jews]

True.

[quote about europeans]

Depends. It can be just hostility based on political agenda.
Europeans are not really a race, a religion nor an ethnic group, but due to the increasing unity they share more or less close-by political views. And I'm taking a risk saying this, it's very general, I know that the Austrian are different from the English, and German politics different from Italian by a mile, etc etc.

Anyway, Curt, I never said I hate Europeans, I never preached against Europeans.

So where is the Double Standard?

I have to say, you have just displayed a double standard. I am clear enough on what you are saying to realize that you aren't saying you hate all europeans.

But you DID say that to "hate all europeans based on a political agenda" is not the same as hating all jews based on a political agenda. The truth is, based on that logic, I could cheerfully say "I hate all jews because of Zionism, regardless of Israel's diversity of races, views and beliefs" - and you know what that would get me called, right? A bigot. Rightfully so, since Zionism and judaism are different things, and I would be unfairly prejudiced against jews by presuming one meant the other and hating accordingly.

Mercifully, I know that Israelis are just as confused about what exactly Zionism means in practice that I can avoid prejudices of that sort. .

R.III

 

[IceBlaZe]

I have to say, you have just displayed a double standard. I am clear enough on what you are saying to realize that you aren't saying you hate all europeans.

But you DID say that to "hate all europeans based on a political agenda" is not the same as hating all jews based on a political agenda. The truth is, based on that logic, I could cheerfully say "I hate all jews because of Zionism, regardless of Israel's diversity of races, views and beliefs" - and you know what that would get me called, right? A bigot. Rightfully so, since Zionism and judaism are different things, and I would be unfairly prejudiced against jews by presuming one meant the other and hating accordingly.

Mercifully, I know that Israelis are just as confused about what exactly Zionism means in practice that I can avoid prejudices of that sort.

No I haven't.
You have a fundamental mistake in analyzing what I said.
I never said hating all Europeans based on political agenda is not as bad, I just said that hating all Europeans based on Political agenda is not racism as hating Jews for being part of a religious group in which some individuals hold an opinion of some sort is.

 

[G-Man]

I don't know if being anti-european is racism, as europeans aren't a race (meaning they have nothing in common except the geeographic location of their countries). I think the question that should be asked is if being anti european means you hate EVERY single european or just hate europeans in general (ie opposing to the general opinions of French public but isn't against any French because he's French).

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by G-Man
I think the question that should be asked is if being anti european means you hate EVERY single european or just hate europeans in general (ie opposing to the general opinions of French public but isn't against any French because he's French).

And how do you answer that?
Think about what you say there. Wouldn't that thought out another way mean it is okay to hate Jews in general for their influence on the world (no matter what that is, your ideas of France's influence on it isn't the pure truth either) as long as you don't hate every single Jew for it?

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Hitro

And how do you answer that?
Think about what you say there. Wouldn't that thought out another way mean it is okay to hate Jews in general for their influence on the world (no matter what that is, your ideas of France's influence on it isn't the pure truth either) as long as you don't hate every single Jew for it?

No. Jews in general don't have a policy or anything else that connects all of them, therefore you can't hate jews for their ideas in general. French have something in common - they're all living in France, they all have the right to vote (and therefore influence the decisions of their goverment), they have govermental organizations that execute these decisions.

 

[Richard III]

Yes, the reason I wrote what I did was because I accept that there is something called anti-semitism that is a prejudice different from (and perhaps worse than) racism: I have trouble with the idea that Jews are a race in the first place. A point I think I hinted at in my decision to refer to "Israel's diversity of races, views and beliefs," Iceblaze.

But I will accept that the point is controversial, and I know there are as many Jews who feel anti-semitism is plain racism as feel it is something distinct from that.

R.III

 

[IceBlaZe]

Racism by semantical definition is also hatred and hostility based on religion, AFAIK.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-ti-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
Date: 1882
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun

Here, that covers what I meant I think.

 

[God]

I thought Arabs were semites too?

 

[Richard III]

OK.

(EDIT) by which I mean what I said earlier: I accept that there are two prevailing views on the subject; I know I'm not alone in mine, but I know that many take the same view as that dictionary of yours, too.

Whatever.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Anti Semitism is a definition coined when Jews were the only Semites in Europe.

So it only applies to Jews, and not Other semite groups.