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[BTS] NC 1 - Elizabeth - Redux

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lazarus_Cato, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. Lazarus_Cato

    Lazarus_Cato Chieftain

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    The Noble's Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.


    We are playing as Elizabeth of the English Empire, who was first played just over 9 years ago (original); they start with Fishing and Mining.



    Unique Unit: Redcoats


    Unique Building: Stock Exchange


    And the start...


    Spoiler map details :
    big and small


    Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "[NC1] Elizabeth". You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

    Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
    I'm new to this, so I don't feel confident enough with the WB to create the appropriate AI settings (tech and what not)... So you'll have to do this yourself manually, unless someone is kind enough to do it, in which case I am more than happy to attach the file to the OP
    Spoiler huts and events :
    Yes I think huts an events are on, at least from what I can tell from the original, I'm yet to play any of this myself. There's no way of editing the original save from what I can tell to rectify this.


    A note about victory:
    Krick19 the original OP suggested a cultural victory... In keeping with the spirit of the OOP, I am suggesting we all go for a cultural victory too.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Spoiler why are you doing this, it's already been done :
    A few things: firstly, I wanted to play the first NC so I went to the thread; alot of the images had expired, secondly, it was a game save, not a wb save - and I wanted to play the game on Prince, so I made the adjustments for myself self and then I thought I would do it for everyone... I really hope this wasn't out of line to do... Seeing as how we're up to NC184 I'm guessing alot of you didn't play the original and I'm hoping to generate some fresh discussion and improve my game, this will be my first Prince game and also my first attempt at a cultural victory.
    If there are any vets willing to play along with me that would be great, because I'd love to drastically improve my game, I'll do as I've read and play 10 turns at a time.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  2. Lazarus_Cato

    Lazarus_Cato Chieftain

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    Spoiler my first 10 turns, critique please :
    • T000 - Warrior 1SE, settle in place, build worker, tech agriculture for the rice
    • T001-6 - Warrior exploring south
    • T007 - Monty, yay! :shifty:
    • T008 - Get ag, straight for BW hoping for some copper to take care of Monty, popped a goodie hut for 74 gold, looks like a decent city site or 2 by the corn and cow.
    • T009-10 - Explored south some more hoping to see where Monty is.


    That's all I'm doing for now. Will play more on Thursday, real life beckons me...
     
  3. diegobueno

    diegobueno Chieftain

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    i dont like your version of the redcoat :lol:, is that a mod?
    gonna try on emperor
     
  4. Lazarus_Cato

    Lazarus_Cato Chieftain

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    Yeah, I run BAT 4.1
    Are you going for a cultural victory?
     
  5. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Why are you insisting on a cultural victory, just because someone suggested it 10 years ago? :) I think you shouldn't go for niche strategies like that while trying to learn the basics. If you just play a normal game, domination/conquest will come eventually.
     
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  6. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Let's give it a go. Prince, normal speed, aim for cultural victory.
    Interesting start:
    Spoiler :
    There's the conventional worker first, research agric,( AH?),BW or maybe WB first, BW, worker. Be nice to get clams early for the commerce boost.

    edit: playing further its a pretty horrible map, no rivers in sight, lots of plains, desert and jungle, copper with no food, Monte near enough to be annoying but too far to rush. Winnable for sure but not fun.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
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  7. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Totally agree with Sampsa. As I mentioned in the other thread, Culture Victory is very different type of game and approach. Really, I would not recommend even focusing on VC. Rather I would just focus on learning the early parts of the game and improving your mechanics/strategies to 1AD, then take the game wherever you wish.

    As for your start here, I might suggest something a little different. (Coastal starts can often be tricky and may call for a different approach than worker first depending on resoures/starting techs)

    So let's think about this. I think SIP is indeed fine. I don't see much gain from moving here unless Warrior spots something amazing. You have 2 clams (4F3C), dry rice (4F), and a cow(3F3H).

    Dry rice is not a strong tile. Cow is strong in yields, but not really as a food resource on its own. The clams are 4F3C, which is superior to the dry rice.

    Now usually I want to get a worker out asap, but in this case he is going to have a lot of idle turns after improving rice and waiting for BW.

    What I might do here since Lizzy starts with Fishing is go for a WB first. (timings are tricky here unless practicing the start but I would use 1F2H forest first until border pop and then 3H PH to finish WB fast). I'd ignore AG for now and go straight to BW.

    You could start worker after wb, building it with the improved clams (which will also speed up BW with that 3C), or start another WB or even Warrior to grow to size 2, then start worker immediately. Switch to slavery after BW and whip worker as soon as available. Chop out second WB.

    (learning note: in case you didn't know, workers and settlers are built with both food and hammers, so the improved clams should mean faster worker over no improvements.)

    After BW, you can choose maybe to go AG>AH, but that might depend a bit on what scouting has shown you up to this point. Or go TW>POT>Writing to get up grans and hook up possible copper (maybe) or whatever. All that can be assessed after the BW finishes.

    But now you have 2 decently strong tiles in the 2 clams improved and the ability to chop and mine the city for settlers/workers to expand with what no idle worker turns.

    (again, I should note that coastal starts can be difficult on the best approach to take -.>worker first, wb first, or even something else. It all depends on several factors and timings of things. I think what I outlined is the best for this start but there could be something better. What I do know is going AG and worker first will leave you a lot of idle worker turns while only having a relatively single weak tile improved)

    (another learning note: "Spawnbusting" ...I noticed this in your last game. Not sure how much of a barb problem you had, but noticed China did build GW next to you.
    A single unit can "spawnbust" a 5X5 tile area. In other words, that 5X5 area from the center tile a unit stands on will not spawn barbs. I will usually move my initial warriors into spawnbust positions logically outside my borders to limit/prevent barb spawn. I noticed a lot of open and fogged land to the NE and E that might have sent quite a few barbs your way especially with the GW just to the E. This is something to be aware of and try to practice. It will save you a lot of hassle and protect areas you plan to settle soon)

    last edit: and feel free to restart this game..i think you have started already if I read correctly. For now, I recommend even getting advice before starting the game.

    (I think it's more than fine to use an old NC game)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
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  8. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    I gave it a try on Prince/Normal, thought it would be fun.

    On map difficulty :
    Spoiler :

    Normal speed Deity on this map is gonna be crazy hard.
    Why?
    Spoiler :

    Boxed in from the start, only available land is jungle and no-food-ground tiles. A monster AI on the other side of the continent




    @Lazarus_Cato

    I played through the whole game, not sure that posting a writeup right now is very relevant though, especially as I played through most of the game with automated workers and city production lol. Well it gave me a feeling about this game, and about Prince difficulty so that I can understand better what you are doing wrong. I came to the conclusion that if you had trouble winning on Prince, there was almost every in-game decision you were taking was sub-optimal. This is not a criticism by any means, I have been in that situation myself not very long ago. The thing is, that when you are new to the game, most the in-game decisions you take are sub-optimal, and you need a big deal of optimal decisions to win a game (on higher difficulties at least).

    I would suggest that you post as detailed writeups of your moves as you can, so the people here can point out the good, the bad and the ugly.

    Now about yout opening, not much to add to what lymond already said. Fishing start + lots of forests often means Bronze Working + whip worker, then chop whatever you want.

    A bit off-topic but a very good way to improve your game would be going through Kossin's Micro Challenges : https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/micro-challenge-central.499254/ ; this will make you practice on how to make optimal moves in a given situation.
     
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  9. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Have to agree that the way to improve is to play short sets (10-15 turns), posting thoughts/plans before playing and waiting 24 hours for feedback before playing the set. A lot of people have found this frustrating and race on ahead which is understandable but doesn't aid learning.
     
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  10. Krugi

    Krugi At heart

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    IMM / Normal / No huts / No events (edited WBSave to give Agri/Hunting/Archery to all AI opponents). Played to 1 AD.

    I have notes up to ~T66, then it became tedious to jot down everything, but I still kept track of macroscopic developments. I also made some very silly mistakes; you'll see.

    Spoiler :

    • T0: Warrior moves 3, revealing nothing at all. I dislike the WB first approach without a forested plains hill in the small cross, though, and rice/clams could be a useful second city to overlap cottages (capital is rather mediocre for commerce either way, but FIN helps alleviate that). Thus I moved the settler 36.
    • T1: Found London. WB, work forested plains hill (6t). (Always go max hammers for a starting workboat in capital.) Research BW first; need to speed up my settlers vigorously with such a capital. Founding London reveals flat plains stone (!) in BFC, 1/4/0 -- better than the whip. Pyramids + PHI? Yes please.
    • T4: Met Montezuma's scout in the SW. Too close.
    • T7: Work boat moves onto clams (consumes movement). Switch to 2-food tile to ensure fastest growth (5 * 4 + 2). Hammers into Warrior.
    • T8: Work 4/0/3 FIN clams.
    • T13: London size 2, start Worker (9t).
    • T15: Finish BW; research Masonry (stone tile is good). Met Frederick's scout from the NW jungle belt (Iron Working will be a key economic tech).
    • T19: Monty, who founded Buddhism on T18, converts.
    • T22: Worker finished, moves 3 into forest. Still 3t to Masonry, but we can chop the forest. London starts a settler.
    • T25: Masonry. We need Agri, AH, Wheel, Pottery and Sailing (lighthouses for 5-food tiles; there's at least 3 clams we will be working at that time; GLH would be nice as my dotmap is nearly all coastal)
    • T26: Revolt to Slavery. Settler must go out asap.
    • T27: London spots Sitting Bull's warrior on that "island" with the gems to the north-east, which must be a peninsula.
    • T29: Swap to a FIN coast tile for a turn, which speeds up Agri by 1t and puts the settler at 70/100.
    • T30: 1-pop whip Settler. Quarry finished. It hurts to whip off the quarry, especially since we regrow slowly, but I need settlers fast. Briefly consider that I should have chopped rather than improved the quarry, but that leaves too few forests for later settlers / Pyramids.
    • T33: Found York 4777 of London (dry rice, clams). Worker 1 chops plains forest 41 of capital to sink 20h into a work boat 3t from now, which will improve the clams. Agri finished either on this turn or the previous one. AH next, since I'm worried about the lack of copper and horses seem likely; the plains cow at the capital helps as well. York languishes in mediocrity for a while, but can at least grow to size 2 and whip the third worker (food surplus is exactly 6). The placement of York means that I lose free trade routes (culture doesn't cover coast until London pops third-ring borders T50), but I gain a canal towards the third clams, preserve a forest, and can work a banana later. Hill might help if the jungle is poorly fogbusted by my AI "colleagues" (this will turn out not to be the case, barbs don't hurt me at all in this game).
    • T37: WB finished. London size 2. Produce another worker there (7t). Wk1 chops forest 7 of cap.
    • T40: York size 2, swap to Worker. Wk1 moves 4 into another forest.
    • T42: London starts work on another Settler.
    • T44: Animal Husbandry. Wk1 finished chop; moves onto plains cow and pastures. Research The Wheel next; lack of roads is getting noticeable and more than that, I want granaries / cottages. I figure we'll also need a useful military unit since the animal era is long past and Monty is close. We have horses alongside dry corn (can be irrigated later); that'll be city #3.
    • T46: Squeezing in a scouting move with a warrior reveals plains copper S-SE of capital (haha), but any city to claim the tile would go foodless. No thanks. Workers finish pasture. I whip the settler at London, which probably bites me later as the capital whips off a good and just-improved tile (plains cow) once again, but I figure I'm in a race with Monty (which is true, but not in the way I expect at this point), as his second city has popped up south of my desired site some ten turns earlier. York's worker (that's #3) farms rice.
    • T47: Workers 1,2 move 77, losing a turn, to finish the farm on the next turn. (Still no Wheel.)
    • T48: Farm finished. The workers will jointly move onto the horse tile, losing two turns (!) -- but we can't get Wheel before T50, and everything is improved barring cottages, anyway. Could have foregone AH in hindsight, since the cow is whipped off and the plains horses don't matter so much (would've chosen that site regardless). Note my mistake. Not used to IMM tech costs yet. Founded Nottingham (dry corn, plains horse; plains/desert incense later; some grassland, 1 grass mine). That city can help with workers (later settlers); good production from tiles, but also good for whipping.
    • T51: The Wheel; set research to Pottery (what else). York now connects to London via coastal trade route within own culture (doesn't need Sailing). Met Saladin, who founded Hinduism. Two workers road the horse 7 of Nottingham as the third one moves 31 onto corn and farms. Monty's second city is located 22221 of Notts, by the way.
    • T52: Wk1 helps Wk3 farm corn, Wk2 pastures. London and York both grow back to size 2. York immediately starts another worker (will whip again), whereas London will grow to size 2 on a work boat (we'll need one for the third clams sooner or later), then start a settler at size 3. York's worker is slated to chop at London. None of the AIs have researched Writing yet.
    • T55: Notts size2. Start Chariot, 6t (plan is to whip worker at size 3, also 6t). But there's also a grass hill I want to mine, which is forested. I can put the chop into a worker, of course, but the catch is that I need two workers to improve the hill before Notts grows to 3 (it would be stuck working a useless tile for at least one turn otherwise). That'll slow down London in turn. Pottery due soon.
    • T64: Just chopped another settler at London (40h overflow into Pyramids). It's late for what's only the fourth city, but the late pottery, slow-growing capital and riverless land are growing very apparent (still researching Writing) -- the way out, though, shall be PHI Representation Scientists. The fourth city shall claim pigs and has three forests (shared with Nottingham, currently being pre-chopped), i.e. 60h into library (don't need granary at all for a while) -- 1-pop whip the library, run two scientists, and we'll get the Academy alongside the Pyramids (ETA T85)
    • T66: Monty founds his third city 2 of the projected site, next to ivory. The settler watches helplessly from 1 tile away. The Aztec city's name appropriately includes "lol". At this point I reroute the settler towards the only other site (clams west of York) and my economy tanks as London starts to work on a granary and the Pyramids, which will hopefully get me back into the game. I research Sailing as well; lighthouses will help tremendously (3 out of 4 cities benefit) and the gems peninsula looks like another useful site down the road.

    I build the Pyramids on T84 or so, then promptly forget to switch to Rep for 15 turns, all the while wondering why I'm still taking 15t to Alphabet. :smoke:

    What puts me back in the game after such a howler, though, is the capital working two Scientists and popping an Engineer on T100 due to the Mids. I delayed the scientists for a while to increase my chances of that happening (GLH > early Academy). No questions asked, I burn him on the Great Lighthouse (which has still not fallen!), trade Alpha to Saladin for IW and filler, and now that I can remove jungle, it's FIN cottage + Representation Scientists + infinite happiness heaven. Within the next 15 turns, my GNP easily doubles as I generate a GSci for an Academy in London.

    Techwise, on T115 (the 1AD benchmark), the computer opponents are only up Monarchy (Saladin/De Gaulle; Mids render it near-useless, I don't have wine either) and Code of Laws (De Gaulle monopoly; non-ORG courthouses are useless with all the FIN cottages I'd have to whip off), while I have Aesthetics (due next turn) and Currency on everybody else. 200bpt is decent enough at this point, and I'll only grow larger as the two northern gold mines and the gems at Canterbury will be claimed within the next dozen turns. Diplo-wise, everybody is at Cautious (maybe De Gaulle isn't, he just went Confu) because I revolted to Buddhism (Fred recently switched to Hinduism) -- Monty was at Annoyed due to border tension and I'd really rather not have that. I'm anticipating a tech path of Calendar -> Code of Laws -> Literature -> bulb Philosophy -> Music (burn artist on Golden Age, revolt to Caste/Pacifism) -> Civil Service (revolt to Bureaucracy during GA) -> bulb Education (at least partially). The problem is that the AI still cling to their precious Polytheism because nobody has built the Temple of Artemis yet ( :rolleyes: ) and the National Epic will be difficult to build without any of IND, forests or Marble at the ready.

    A few further mistakes, by the way: Newcastle, founded last turn, should already be working improved rice (will get that next turn, but still); Coventry lost its plains mine to a Fred plant I should have foreseen, screwing up the Granary whip I had planned; Nottingham's cottage 21 will be replaced by a farm sooner or later, since Tlatelolco :mad: stole the tile I had wanted to farm originally (for irrigation of the corn). Likewise, that plains riverside cottage at London should be a farm, and the GLH should perhaps be in York because the Merchant points are rather undesirable. It might also have been wise to gain Great Wall failgold earlier, but I'm satisfied with pouring all my Stone-boosted overflow (including a 29/60 lighthouse 2-pop whip; tasty!) into the Pyramids.

    Screenshot, 1 AD (save attached):


    We don't have OB or resource deals with Sitting Bull because he's Monty's worst enemy (for some reason) and he'd probably demand I cancel them. No idea where De Gaulle is, but he looks most likely to be the runaway. Not pictured: Newcastle (dry rice / desert gold; but see mini-map). Will build 1-2 settlers in the next 15t.

    If you haven't played the map, you might be wondering why Saladin isn't expanding southward onto that stretch of land where I founded Newcastle. Turns out there's an extremely opportune peak that blocks his access by land, and he lacks a city that could send galleys into the little inland sea.

    Lizzy has weird traits, but once Rep/Hereditary Rule happiness comes in, you can actually use them both at the same time.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
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  11. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Played this on Immortal/Normal speed, but looks like that got messed up. The game reports 750 turns, which would imply Epic speed, and I'm seeing warriors where they shouldn't be. Anywho.... almost to 1AD.

    Spoiler :
    Read pigswill's spoiler 2 minutes ago, and totally agree. The start itself is plenty fine, lack of rivers aside (and awkward timing with worker/wb/techs choices), but the surrounding land is basically crap, and Monty is the nearest neighbour. With that early scouting knowledge, I decided to try something I've never done before, but seen others do (99% sure AZ has done it). I got an early Great Scientist and bulbed Math for better chops. And then went for HA rushing Monty. He was probably plotting on me for refusing to cut off ties with some bloke anyway (despite agreeing to another demand shortly before - what a punk!).

    Chopped ferociously, and attacked him wiht 12-13 HAs. Forgot he got access to their unique unit just by KNOWING Iron Working, so lots of those things were around, but enough HAs could get through them, and Monty is dead by 250BC. The economy is completely down the drain, however, and it will take a long time to recover. If I continue the game, and I'm not sure I will, I'd take the HA army and declare on Frederick nearby. He doesn't appear to have metal. Pretty sure that war will go well too, but such a big empire early, without currency, or even pottery ( :D ), the economy will have a broken back in 3 places. Okay, would get Alpha before all that capture gold runs out, and maybe with luck work enough coast tiles to not have units disband. But it wouldn't be fun. Didn't exactly help that an annoying barb galley popped up and wiped both clams either. Without Sailing, there is nothing to do about it.

    A few weeks ago I read one of the early Noble Club threads, or possibly the first pages of the initial Bullpen thread, and I now understand why several people complained about being kind of shoehorned in the first handful of games. It's more fun when the game/map opens up for different strategies.

    In this map it's an awkward struggle from early on, and if you don't take out Monty, he will certainly come and pay you a visit sooner or later. And with all that crap land... ugh. There appeared to be loads of free land too, so barbs were running around everywhere, and spawning cities left, right and centre.

    By killing two AIs early on, it should be possible to win the game, but it looks to be a long struggle, and not of the fun type.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
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  12. diegobueno

    diegobueno Chieftain

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    yes!
    played on monarch, i have to restart the map cuz got beat by monty+germany+sb
    cant beat it on emperor =(

    Spoiler photo :


     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
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  13. Lazarus_Cato

    Lazarus_Cato Chieftain

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    I wasn't insisting, just suggesting... I thought it would be cool to keep the spirit of the original. I have started a normal game if you're interested. But I thought I would do this for fun and to learn more about cultural victories in the meantime.

    Spoiler :
    I agree with the map, I don't think I like big and small - are there strategies or what are some things to know about playing this kind of map?


    Done and done.

    Okay I'm sensing a theme here of where I already messed up. I'm going to do as suggested and restart for the wb first thing. But before I do a question... Does any of the above mentioned advice change if I intend to go for a cultural victory... For example, I'm wondering if it isn't worth while to race for the early religions?


    I'm gonna play these right now, this is awesome!! Thank you!

    I definitely need to practice spawn busting, but surprisingly in my last game they weren't too much of an issue. The chariots came in handy a couple of times but it wasn't too bad.

    What do you mean by moving the settler 36?

    So I take it you didn't finish it... either way I'm thinking I will follow your lead with you know who.

    Congrats! And my that's alot of wonders... I should be so lucky!

    Cool.
     
  14. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Going for early religions, if you mean PH/Med/Mono are pretty much always a bad thing no matter the game. Those religions will spread to you, and you can still get CoL in a reasonable time regardless. In culture game, you will want to prioritize foreign trade routes for auto-spread unless, you have zealots close to you. (Like Monty will send you mishes unless he attacks you first :)) Also note that the higher the level the less likely you will beat any of the AIs to those religions, especially if Myst is not your starting tech. big whoop...

    Regardless of game, it is always good to focus on the important worker techs and food first..so no, my advice would not change. How you might setup your empire might though.

    And really, for casual games you don't need to always start with a set VC.
     
  15. Krugi

    Krugi At heart

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    Those are numpad directions, an alternative to using the mouse when moving units. Think of the "5" key as the tile that the settler is currently occupying. If you press 36, the settler heads southeast, then south.
     
  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I assumed that is what you meant myself, though no clue what 36 meant. Just note that many many people here don't have a clue about it or use it.
     
  17. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    For cultural victories founding an early religion is much less important than growing fast and grabbing land which means worker techs (i.e. techs that improve tile yields). You have the option of founding religions a bit later (usually confucianism from CoL and toaism from philosophy (GS bulb))
     
  18. Krugi

    Krugi At heart

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    I meant southeast - east in that post, by the way; another testament to my inattention. :lol:

    I find I can visualize "4777" better than "W-NW-NW-NW" or even "W-3NW" for some reason, but I can understand that one would get thrown off by it.

    The game itself isn't going all well --
    Spoiler :
    now at 425 AD (T132), 300 bpt; trouble is that De Gaulle climbs ever further in score while I am out of room, and lack iron, copper or ivory. He will almost certainly attack Sitting Bull at some point, growing even stronger. Sitting Bull, by the way, is willing to sell me iron... for 79 gpt, 2/3 of what I generate at 0% research, or for all of my resources -- including horses. Monty still hovers at Pleased after I bribed him to war against Frederick, whom I declared on at Saladin's behest -- no actual intent to fight archer garrisons with chariots. At least the Aztecs gave me Polytheism for free. Math, Calendar, CoL, Civil Service are in; plan is still to go Literature -> Music and leverage the Golden Age into two more GP, but perhaps I should delay said GA until I can build Cuirs (with iron expensively loaned) and generate a Great Merchant, then hopefully get my own source of iron and roll over Sitting Bull before De Gaulle does -- advice welcome...

    Could also tech HBR right now and try to grab Fred's cities with horse archers (he doesn't seem to have metal), but I have little natural production and would have to whip off cottages, which might only throw me back further behind De Gaulle, as my tech lead is all I have over him.

    Can attach a save if there's interest.
     
  19. gamegasmo

    gamegasmo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2016
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    Male
    First post. Great thread!

    Gone for cultural victory with 4 city. 1904 AD. Prince/Normal.

    Spoiler :
    Rough map for cultural win or bad in-game decisions, whatever, just got to restart for Monty chased me.

    Wiped him out and settled my three cultural cities. A fourth only to be my military units farm. Sip and got Monty's capital. The third right in the middle, grabbing corn, cow and ivory.

    BW>TW>Pott>W>H>AH>Math>Aes and son on till Lib. Skipped the religious techs and got late for CoL. Monarchy by 760 AD and Lib by 1560 AD.

    My cultural slider got stuck at 70% waiting for GAs.

    Feeling that the initial whip ruined my cottage plans...
     

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