[BTS] Need Help on Monarch
- Thread starter crashmon
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crashmon
Warlord
turn 47
Spoiler More Scouting :
Me personally, I would have settled Coanda 1S so that it would have had pigs in first ring and been coastal. That city could have been able to build workboats for fish city and crab city.
I understand if you want horses in first ring though, but one option to get those is to settle a helper city NW of horses on the riverside PH, such a city could help develop some cottage and also contributed by borrowing cows and eventually gotten the sheeps. But such a placement requires knowing more about the coast though.
With regard to your city placements, I would bump up forward crabs up in priority above backfill-sheep.
Math.. I don't know. It's a nice tech and would be lovely to get.
On deity I would normally want to save up cash and delay such large techs until I have gotten up a library in capital, especially if there is also gold in the capital.
If you are going math now, you should probably delay some of the chopping. Perhaps do abit of roading and lay down a cottage or two.
But I'm not sure, the techs are cheaper and the timings might work out differently.
I understand if you want horses in first ring though, but one option to get those is to settle a helper city NW of horses on the riverside PH, such a city could help develop some cottage and also contributed by borrowing cows and eventually gotten the sheeps. But such a placement requires knowing more about the coast though.
With regard to your city placements, I would bump up forward crabs up in priority above backfill-sheep.
Math.. I don't know. It's a nice tech and would be lovely to get.
On deity I would normally want to save up cash and delay such large techs until I have gotten up a library in capital, especially if there is also gold in the capital.
If you are going math now, you should probably delay some of the chopping. Perhaps do abit of roading and lay down a cottage or two.
But I'm not sure, the techs are cheaper and the timings might work out differently.
crashmon
Warlord
I have only just teched writing, so won't lose any beakers if we switch (its the same turn)
Now if we had more neighbours I might have gone alpha for trades, but it looks like I only have one near neighbour right now, so it looks like tech trading will be limitied until optics... So this has got me thinking if I should be looking at a semi-iso play here. I'm not sure how much of a tech trader Zara is here
Now if we had more neighbours I might have gone alpha for trades, but it looks like I only have one near neighbour right now, so it looks like tech trading will be limitied until optics... So this has got me thinking if I should be looking at a semi-iso play here. I'm not sure how much of a tech trader Zara is here
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/page-3#post-11931840
Zara Yaqob general information in that link. He's a religious zealot - he strongly likes those who share his religion, and strongly dislikes those who do not. Since you two seem to probably be in isolation and neither of you founded an early religion, that's irrelevant for now. He's not a warmonger like Montezuma, nor is he a pacifist like Gandhi; he's somewhere in the middle of the scale, will fight sometimes. He is a backstabber - about half the AIs in the game will not start planning a war against someone if they are at Pleased status, but Zara Yaqob is unfortunately not in that group. If you need to handle a backstabber, the preferred methods are either point him at another target (not an option in semi-isolation), get to Friendly status (not practical without shared religion bonus), grow significantly bigger so they're scared of your power (very practical on Monarch), kill them first (also very practical on Monarch), or just cross your fingers and hope for the best. He is a bit more of a unit-spammer than average, but not to such a degree that it holds back his tech rate or expansion that much - just enough to keep him a bit safer than most. He's Organized and Creative; Creative plus the Stele unique building (+25% culture) means his cities tend to get very quick border pops. That helps fix problems with bots placing cities in sub-optimal locations which is why most Creative AIs are better than average; it also gives him cultural city defense faster (which can be a headache for early rushes) and makes it hard to fight with him culturally over any contested border tiles. He's a very friendly trade partner - he'll trade techs and resources even with players he is Annoyed at. In large multi-civ continents this often puts him ahead of other AIs, as he'll be making trades with everyone and getting a little value from all of them, but in semi-isolation it just means you can pretty much count on him to be happy to swap with you.
Overall he's a fairly balanced AI who generally plays a smart, effective game. One of the contenders for "strongest AI."
The issue regarding tech trades is that you're on Monarch, and with decent play on Monarch your tech will generally simply outstrip that of the AIs which means they don't have much they can trade to you. Particularly if you're in semi-isolation so there's only one tech trading partner. On a higher difficulty I'd want to keep him around for tech trades, but on Monarch playing as Egypt with inner-ring horses on my third city I'd be very strongly tempted to just chop + whip ~10 war chariots and kill him. If you decide to go that route, your workers need to drop everything else, get roads and horse pasture done and then chop forests until you get the war chariots out and moving. It'd be a fairly late attack for a traditional chariot rush, but war chariots stay viable a little longer (one of the best unique units in the game). It's an option, not a must-do. You've got enough good land here that you certainly could play this safe and peaceful out to the Renaissance, I just don't think a Monarch Zara Yaqob is going to contribute all that much.
On a totally different issue... two warriors should be sufficient to barb-bust the north, and three probably the west unless that peninsula in the southwest goes on a long ways. That'd be a good thing to get positioned now, make sure you don't have to worry about any barbs. Third city should grow to size-2 before it starts the worker - building either a granary or a warrior. You're running a little short on worker-turns, so I'd probably have the second city just make another worker after the current one finishes. Capital might want to grow on a granary if you're thinking about war chariot rush, or possibly grow on a library if you're planning a more slow/peaceful game.
Zara Yaqob general information in that link. He's a religious zealot - he strongly likes those who share his religion, and strongly dislikes those who do not. Since you two seem to probably be in isolation and neither of you founded an early religion, that's irrelevant for now. He's not a warmonger like Montezuma, nor is he a pacifist like Gandhi; he's somewhere in the middle of the scale, will fight sometimes. He is a backstabber - about half the AIs in the game will not start planning a war against someone if they are at Pleased status, but Zara Yaqob is unfortunately not in that group. If you need to handle a backstabber, the preferred methods are either point him at another target (not an option in semi-isolation), get to Friendly status (not practical without shared religion bonus), grow significantly bigger so they're scared of your power (very practical on Monarch), kill them first (also very practical on Monarch), or just cross your fingers and hope for the best. He is a bit more of a unit-spammer than average, but not to such a degree that it holds back his tech rate or expansion that much - just enough to keep him a bit safer than most. He's Organized and Creative; Creative plus the Stele unique building (+25% culture) means his cities tend to get very quick border pops. That helps fix problems with bots placing cities in sub-optimal locations which is why most Creative AIs are better than average; it also gives him cultural city defense faster (which can be a headache for early rushes) and makes it hard to fight with him culturally over any contested border tiles. He's a very friendly trade partner - he'll trade techs and resources even with players he is Annoyed at. In large multi-civ continents this often puts him ahead of other AIs, as he'll be making trades with everyone and getting a little value from all of them, but in semi-isolation it just means you can pretty much count on him to be happy to swap with you.
Overall he's a fairly balanced AI who generally plays a smart, effective game. One of the contenders for "strongest AI."
The issue regarding tech trades is that you're on Monarch, and with decent play on Monarch your tech will generally simply outstrip that of the AIs which means they don't have much they can trade to you. Particularly if you're in semi-isolation so there's only one tech trading partner. On a higher difficulty I'd want to keep him around for tech trades, but on Monarch playing as Egypt with inner-ring horses on my third city I'd be very strongly tempted to just chop + whip ~10 war chariots and kill him. If you decide to go that route, your workers need to drop everything else, get roads and horse pasture done and then chop forests until you get the war chariots out and moving. It'd be a fairly late attack for a traditional chariot rush, but war chariots stay viable a little longer (one of the best unique units in the game). It's an option, not a must-do. You've got enough good land here that you certainly could play this safe and peaceful out to the Renaissance, I just don't think a Monarch Zara Yaqob is going to contribute all that much.
On a totally different issue... two warriors should be sufficient to barb-bust the north, and three probably the west unless that peninsula in the southwest goes on a long ways. That'd be a good thing to get positioned now, make sure you don't have to worry about any barbs. Third city should grow to size-2 before it starts the worker - building either a granary or a warrior. You're running a little short on worker-turns, so I'd probably have the second city just make another worker after the current one finishes. Capital might want to grow on a granary if you're thinking about war chariot rush, or possibly grow on a library if you're planning a more slow/peaceful game.
crashmon
Warlord
Thanks @coanda that was a very insightful post
So now I think we have the first major decision here.
Thoughts please on this.
So now I think we have the first major decision here.
- Kill off Eithopia
- Peace for a while as good land for at least 7 cities, leave Zara as is
Thoughts please on this.
crashmon
Warlord
Also if we go war, do we change from Maths to HBR for horse archers (but I dont have hunting so would need to research 3 techs here?) or being egypt is War Chariots enough, also would I be looking at chopping a barracks for the combat bonus?
In situations like these, I usually leave the AI alive.
There is enough room to get an okay amount of cities. My goal would rather be to get to optics (for trades with other AIs) and astro for traderoutes.
Then I turn on my neighbour later and get a good amount of already developed cities very fast and effectively, hopefully in a very unfair fight (cuirs or cannons vs longbows).
That way, the land is developed and cities are grown, without me having to pay for the maintenance.
This would mean to expand rapidly to 5-6 cities, then cottage up and start running 2 scientists in 3 separate cities before T90, then I know I can bulb astro at a respectable date (300/6 = 50 turns) for the third scientists. Then I have an academy and a double-bulb of astro T140 if teching and trade goes ok.
A myriad of factors change the finer details of every single game though.
There is enough room to get an okay amount of cities. My goal would rather be to get to optics (for trades with other AIs) and astro for traderoutes.
Then I turn on my neighbour later and get a good amount of already developed cities very fast and effectively, hopefully in a very unfair fight (cuirs or cannons vs longbows).
That way, the land is developed and cities are grown, without me having to pay for the maintenance.
This would mean to expand rapidly to 5-6 cities, then cottage up and start running 2 scientists in 3 separate cities before T90, then I know I can bulb astro at a respectable date (300/6 = 50 turns) for the third scientists. Then I have an academy and a double-bulb of astro T140 if teching and trade goes ok.
A myriad of factors change the finer details of every single game though.
crashmon
Warlord
This is one thing that I see @Lain and AZ do a lot in Iso type starts, but something harder to master... So if we did head to astro, based on where we are right now.
Questions (really sorry asking loads of questions here, but all this helps)
1) What would be tech path from here (so we get correct options for bulbing Astro)
2) We would build lib's so we can get and run scientists, however how would we use the GS which they would spawn from them (1 for acadamy in Cap, then others for bulb)
3) Would we want to think about GLH? If so I'll need to found coastal city by fish next. I think we have strong commerce so not sure if needed
4) We probably need something stronger than warriors to stop Zara going for us, we have copper / horses so can get axes, spears and War Chariots, so I think we are ok
1. I would get sailing because it's cheap and required for compass, then I would go MC (cheap forge and +1 more happines from the gold), IW->compass->optics.
It could be that a detour myst->poly->priesthood->monarchy first could be worth it for even more happines though, but I think just a straight beeline would be good.
Besides, there is also a chance to get monarchy in a trade later on if he goes alpha. And if not he might still trade away wine (or some other happines resource).
2. 1 for academy, then two hangs out forever waiting for you to trade for math/alpha/calendar overseas so they can bulb astro. Don't get CS/Theocracy or they will want to bulb paper, and don't get meditation+drama/CoL or they will want to bulb philo.
On maps where you get the 3 libraries slow or if the capital is bad, you might have to skimp on the academy and start running 2 scientists in two cities T100-T110 instead.
3. GLH for fourth city? That must be highly unlikely to succeed. And the benefit is greatly reduced if you have so few coastal cities too.
Regarding wonders, I think oracle was really suited here, and there is something to be said for a stone-less pyramids run too. But other than that I'm not too sure.
Shewdagon paya for failgold would have been really nice.
4. I would gift him a city to get him to pleased, that greatly reduces the risk for him starting to plot. Then I would try to avoid culture pressure to not become a land target and then run around with 1-2 units in his cities to keep an eye out for military buildup.
It could be that a detour myst->poly->priesthood->monarchy first could be worth it for even more happines though, but I think just a straight beeline would be good.
Besides, there is also a chance to get monarchy in a trade later on if he goes alpha. And if not he might still trade away wine (or some other happines resource).
2. 1 for academy, then two hangs out forever waiting for you to trade for math/alpha/calendar overseas so they can bulb astro. Don't get CS/Theocracy or they will want to bulb paper, and don't get meditation+drama/CoL or they will want to bulb philo.
On maps where you get the 3 libraries slow or if the capital is bad, you might have to skimp on the academy and start running 2 scientists in two cities T100-T110 instead.
3. GLH for fourth city? That must be highly unlikely to succeed. And the benefit is greatly reduced if you have so few coastal cities too.
Regarding wonders, I think oracle was really suited here, and there is something to be said for a stone-less pyramids run too. But other than that I'm not too sure.
Shewdagon paya for failgold would have been really nice.
4. I would gift him a city to get him to pleased, that greatly reduces the risk for him starting to plot. Then I would try to avoid culture pressure to not become a land target and then run around with 1-2 units in his cities to keep an eye out for military buildup.
crashmon
Warlord
Turn 54
Have gone for peace (for now
), as might start another game after this one on a small Pangea to try a early rush type game. So this one with semi iso and lots of land we will go peace (at least until we have astro and have met others)
Ok lots of things I've started now, time for review and correction if its wrong
Please review and what should I focus on Next...
Have gone for peace (for now
), as might start another game after this one on a small Pangea to try a early rush type game. So this one with semi iso and lots of land we will go peace (at least until we have astro and have met others)Ok lots of things I've started now, time for review and correction if its wrong
Spoiler Another good city spot uncovered :
Please review and what should I focus on Next...
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A few thoughts in no particular order...
If you've got a warrior to spare, poking around Zara's lands and also the coastline would be useful now for potential trade route commerce.
I would have improved the pigs before the horses on Coanda unless I needed the horses hooked up as a strategic resource (which you don't, if you aren't planning war chariots and already have copper). Horses isn't a disaster, but growing cities faster is usually the default choice.
Time to start laying down some cottages in the capital and on floodplains tiles; you might need another worker to keep up. Commerce is starting to grow in importance as you move into the mid-game.
Coanda needs a granary pronto. Get that after the warrior finishes.
Fogbust the northeast as soon as you can; two warriors will do it.
Since you are about to have horses hooked up, when you can work it in (no huge rush, but some time in the next ~10-15 turns) I'd get a single war chariot to go scouting the rest of your continent, see what you have to work with.
Fish/gold and clams/pigs cities you want to take fairly briskly. I'd take fish/gold first, chop a workboat there, whip a granary, whip another workboat to send on over to pigs/clams. After those two the best spots will be filled. Focus will be more on making sure your existing cities are grown up to happy cap, plenty of improved tiles, granaries, libraries where appropriate, great scientist generation proceeding smoothly. Thinking shifts from "let's get settlers fast to take this great land" to "this city wouldn't be slowing its own development by getting a settler."
If you've got a warrior to spare, poking around Zara's lands and also the coastline would be useful now for potential trade route commerce.
I would have improved the pigs before the horses on Coanda unless I needed the horses hooked up as a strategic resource (which you don't, if you aren't planning war chariots and already have copper). Horses isn't a disaster, but growing cities faster is usually the default choice.
Time to start laying down some cottages in the capital and on floodplains tiles; you might need another worker to keep up. Commerce is starting to grow in importance as you move into the mid-game.
Coanda needs a granary pronto. Get that after the warrior finishes.
Fogbust the northeast as soon as you can; two warriors will do it.
Since you are about to have horses hooked up, when you can work it in (no huge rush, but some time in the next ~10-15 turns) I'd get a single war chariot to go scouting the rest of your continent, see what you have to work with.
Fish/gold and clams/pigs cities you want to take fairly briskly. I'd take fish/gold first, chop a workboat there, whip a granary, whip another workboat to send on over to pigs/clams. After those two the best spots will be filled. Focus will be more on making sure your existing cities are grown up to happy cap, plenty of improved tiles, granaries, libraries where appropriate, great scientist generation proceeding smoothly. Thinking shifts from "let's get settlers fast to take this great land" to "this city wouldn't be slowing its own development by getting a settler."
A minor nitpick, but I would really have wanted to scout the coast by the floodplain 2E of the gold. If there is fish there thats good to know.
I would have wanted to know this prior to settling coanda (which I would have wanted to have 1S.
The gold doesn't need a road to connect, it's already connected since it's by a river.
The hill by pigs/clams isn't a PH (Plains hill) it's a grassland hill, and you get no bonus from settling on it.
And Zara is still at 2 cities...? That feels abit weird.
I would open the dialogue with him a halfdozen times to see what unit he is boasting about. If he is bragging about axes/swords I would want to check asap if he might be up to some trouble. If he goes on about archers or chariots things are probably chill and he is just slow.
Having visability of his cities would enable to see if he is building some wonder through the espionage tab.
I would have wanted to know this prior to settling coanda (which I would have wanted to have 1S.
The gold doesn't need a road to connect, it's already connected since it's by a river.
The hill by pigs/clams isn't a PH (Plains hill) it's a grassland hill, and you get no bonus from settling on it.
And Zara is still at 2 cities...? That feels abit weird.
I would open the dialogue with him a halfdozen times to see what unit he is boasting about. If he is bragging about axes/swords I would want to check asap if he might be up to some trouble. If he goes on about archers or chariots things are probably chill and he is just slow.
Having visability of his cities would enable to see if he is building some wonder through the espionage tab.
crashmon
Warlord
Only risk I see here is if Zara settles the pigs/clams spot.. This is why I was thinking going there first
crashmon
Warlord
My thinking here is defence bonus as this city is very close to Zara
City defense bonus is occasionally worth it, but this is not a situation I'd think about it. It's not the closest city to Zara Yaqob, it's not at a particularly key choke point, barbs are zero threat, and more generally you're just bigger than Zara. You have 4 cities to his 2, and pretty soon now you're going to have 6 to his probably 3. You're also likely ahead in tech, and that gap is just going to keep widening. He doesn't have the hammers needed to seriously threaten you; a DoW from him would be an inconvenience that would upend your plans while you hurried out some defensive units, then you'd invade him and take his cities away, but if you're keeping an eye on his cities to spot military build-up the war he shouldn't ever have a chance to actually move deep into your culture.
If you like that spot for the city because it has more land tiles, you can take it. If you prefer 1S so you can mine the grass hill for a bit of non-whip production, don't let the lack of a defensive bonus deter you.
If you like that spot for the city because it has more land tiles, you can take it. If you prefer 1S so you can mine the grass hill for a bit of non-whip production, don't let the lack of a defensive bonus deter you.
crashmon
Warlord
turn 64
now I'll pause again until tomorrow... Lots done last few turns
now I'll pause again until tomorrow... Lots done last few turns
Spoiler update at turn 64 :
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I'd really keep the exploring warrior on a better path there. You have two fogged coastal tiles that once removed would give you trade routes with him. Stay on roads in possible for now. Warrior near pigs/clam can step 1SW to unfog one of the needed tiles.
Settling the two western cities first is fine.
Thebes should not be starving on the settler..you are losing production there.
Not a fan of starting a worker in Sampsa. I'd rather a new city get growth unless they have a power to work.
Yep, a coastal city will focus on a WB first if needed, unless you can produce WBs from another established coastal city, which you don't have here.
Settling the two western cities first is fine.
Thebes should not be starving on the settler..you are losing production there.
Not a fan of starting a worker in Sampsa. I'd rather a new city get growth unless they have a power to work.
Yep, a coastal city will focus on a WB first if needed, unless you can produce WBs from another established coastal city, which you don't have here.
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