[BTS] Need Help on Monarch

[crashmon]

Thebes should not be starving on the settler..you are losing production there.

This is just until Krikav gets to size 3 (2 turns), then Krikav will switch to a FP, and pigs go back to Cap... Or was this thinking wrong here

 

[crashmon]

Just a seperate question (only asking as Monarch, this not an option higher levels)

Seeing semi-iso and good cities spots + lots of production in cap... Is the mids a play here? with the chops I have in the bank, is this even advisable or possible? Even if I miss it lots of potential fail gold. Masonary is very cheap to research if I want to divert slightly

 

[krikav]

It is for sure one option, and it's not easy to dismiss that out of hand.
You have taken care of most of the important early expansion, so making a play for them now wouldn't hurt that much.
You have highlighted that there are decent production in the capital, but the traits are nice too. Ind make it possible (without Ind it would be a non-starter imho.)
Spi benefits abit more from pyramids too though.

They would be good, the question is just if there is something else that would be even better. And what price you pay to try and get them.

I don't think I would pursue them, given the situation.
If capital was larger and I had some more mines perhaps. And if workers had some cottages down already. (If they are chopping, then they won't build cottages).

 

[lymond]

This is just until Krikav gets to size 3 (2 turns), then Krikav will switch to a FP, and pigs go back to Cap... Or was this thinking wrong here

Well, what you are doing right is thinking about your cities and tile sharing. I opened the save. You are building a settler in Thebes with cow+gold+scientist. The copper is not being worked at all.

Keep in mind that settlers are built with food surplus in addition to hammers. So when you build a settler and starving you are losing hammers.

What happenens if Krikav works the cottage FP instead of the Pigs?

Thebes takes pigs back and work pigs/cows/copper (edit) to finish the settler. Then I'd look at maybe having Thebes start to grow now.

edit: I might take a turn of growth in Thebes this turn in expectation of the chop...granary as placeholder. Then take chop into settler next turn, and then the following turn grow to size 4 working all great tiles in thebes to finish settler. After settler, Krik can take the copper and Thebes can start thinking about scientists.

 

[crashmon]

So I logged in just to do as advised by @lymond, and as part of this moved settler to 1S of Grass Hill ready to settle Fippy and.....

Spoiler New decision :

Do we move 1W and settle on pigs to also get horses, although I think there is more land south of the horses so they are possible later

EDIT I'm blind lol, I can settle here and still get horses.. Time for bed

 

[krikav]

The only way to get those horses as a resource is to settle on them. Can't build a road to connect them.
If you settle on the hill, that leaves room to possibly settle a city on the horses eventually, such a city could share the pigs. (Late late late city).

 

[lymond]

Well, the only value in "connecting" the horses, is if you don't have horses - or for trading which seems somewhat irrelevant here. Otherwise, I'd just consider it a nice workable tile for the city there, or maybe a city later on that island. Right now 1E of pigs is solid.

 

[coanda]

settlers are built with food surplus in addition to hammers. So when you build a settler and starving you are losing hammers.

To clarify for crashmon: you're losing potential hammers. A food deficit while building a settler does not get directly converted into "negative hammers;" if you were working say the copper (6H), cow (3H), gold (3H) and of course city tile (1H) while starving -1F per turn you'd still put 13 hammers into the settler each turn. There are some instances when you will want to starve a city to get a settler or worker out faster, although they are uncommon.

With that said - by this point in the game you should always, always, always be working your high-yield tiles. An unworked copper mine is really bad, and the scientist doesn't come close to making up for it. Fix that right away. I'd stop the scientist in capital, take the pigs, and pass the copper to city 2.

 

[lymond]

Yep, that wasn't worded exactly how I meant it. More like it was quite sub-optimal based on the tiles available. (but still technically hammers are lost on the turns that great tiles are not being worked like copper, or a city does not need pigs to grow in the same amount of time)

I think it may be better to let Krik grow with the FP - still 2 turns, and Thebes look to grow to size 4 in 3 turns, with 1 turn stalled on chop for settler. Grow with granary using Pigs/copper/cow..finish with settler with pigs/copper/cow/gold.

Krik may take copper later as needed soon, especially with Thebes running scientists soon or working a cottage.

After the first 2 or 3 cities, I like to see my cap grow to max on good tiles or scientists...depends, ofc, on what you are trying to do or rush on settlers, but usually a good second city or two can focus more on that.

 

[crashmon]

Ok we are at 1000BC (turn 75)

I think at this point I am done with expanding and now its about infrastructure... Therefore I think folks will need to look at my save as with 7 cities now, its not very clear from screenshots in terms of moving into next phase

• I am now focusing on granaries and possibly more workers in newer cities (we have 7 cities now, but that is max expansion until I have more commerce hooked up)
  
• we have 0 land barb issues, North is FB, and Eithopiea is to west (well apart from galleys which will be coming soon)
• So now we need to draw plan to get to 0AD..
  • Once Granary is built in Thebes, then will move to cottages and start to work scientists (will still work gold, cow and pigs for now). Plan is to grow thebes to happy cap
  • We will have forges soon so will switch to building them in major cities
    
  • Krikav will take copper tile as soon as Thebes finishes Granary to help with Library build
  • Coanda is unhappy, but it will only be for one turn as then I can whip (as I have 1 turn left from previous whip of granary)
  • I can only mine or cottage the wine I NE of Coanda right now, so not sure what to do with that tile
  • Worker is on way to improve Fippy Pigs
  • Worker is on way to improve Lymond FP
    
  • Going to pop out more units (WC and warrior) just in case Zara gets any ideas (he is not plotting right now), also to avoid unhappiness as cities grow, also to explore other side of Eithopia

Screenshots below. But please look at the save as I think you will need to look at the cities and what is being worked. I will be pumping out more workers as well as units as I think we are getting into cottage time now.

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[Fippy]

Worker is on way to improve Fippy Pigs

Some fine tuning possible, Thebes can give pigs to Krik this turn and use a 2 forest.
-2 is okay, this would be lost anyways cos your granary cannot load up fully if you continue with current tiles.
Sampsa gets corn from Krik, so you are shifting around some and make an overall nice gain.

Masonry after MC seems reasonable, with IND + forge Pyras in Thebes are a strong play.
Worst case are good failgold chops. Might want maths before too thou.

 

[crashmon]

Some fine tuning possible, Thebes can give pigs to Krik this turn and use a 2 forest.
-2 is okay, this would be lost anyways cos your granary cannot load up fully if you continue with current tiles.
Sampsa gets corn from Krik, so you are shifting around some and make an overall nice gain.

Masonry after MC seems reasonable, with IND + forge Pyras in Thebes are a strong play.
Worst case are good failgold chops. Might want maths before too thou.

yes moving around a little, means Samspa grows in 1 turn, and Thebes can get Granary in one turn .... Seems so simple how just by shifting one or two tiles around, yu can save turns...

I think this is why cities locations (esp first 5 or 6 cities) are so important, and why learning folks like me struggle until we nail these type of concepts

 

[lymond]

Has NZ been workin' the crab tile or an FP?

oh..I got myself a city...I'm so honored

I would look to have a worker to spare to chop a forest around Lymo City for an ASAP wb. The city can max hammers a couple of turns or so to time the chop to 10h. (Unless you have Maths already..which in that case that does not matter)

Not too much you can do about NZ's workboat other than to grow as fast as you can with FP, but Lymo city can get a workboat very fast. Keep that in mind when settling seafood cities. You want that food netted immediately, if possible. Sometimes that means having produced a wb earlier from another established coastal city.

ok...looking at save:

Worker 4 can move to forest 2S of Thebes next turn to chop for Lymo, which works 2F1 tile for 2 turns which should be enough hammers to time to chop for 1t wb at that point. (Make sure Lymo takes the tile being chopped so hammers go to it.)

NZ should be working an FP ..yup

I think one worker is fine for pigs/clam. Looks like Worker1 was headed there, but instead chop forest for Sampsa there

Thebes will not be optimized for granary. Work tiles as is this turn. The next turn Thebes can move copper to a cottage tile while Krik takes the copper. The turn after Granary finishes, Thebes will be 1 turn to grow, but click Avoid Growth button to allow some gran storage.

Trade pigs to Zara

coanda can run scientists when lib completes

after 2 turns of working 2F1h tiles, Lymo can work the cottage until fish is netted. (actually lymo will grow anyway onto fish at same time wb finishes)

 

[crashmon]

Update

Turn 79

• Thebes / Krikav are now building forges
• Once Thebes finishes (5 turns), will move Krikav onto Copper, and Thebes onto more cottages
• Have built a WC to start to explore
• Zara is Pleased, have traded pigs for corn (he only has corn, and I will have 2nd pigs hooked up very soon)
  
• Coanda / Krikav both working 2 Scientists :- Krikav however will go to one, once Thebes frees up copper
• Other cities either going for workers or Granaries, need to think about culture on Zara boundry, so might build libraries in border city (or could possibly get Myst for Obelisks in those cities)

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So :- To Mids or not to Mids, that is the question

• We are one turn from Masonry (screenshot say 2, but can get it in 1 by running for 1 turn at 20% sci)
  
• after that No Mids play I'm thinking IW => MACH => Compass => Optics
  
• if mids play then Maths=> IW => MACH => Compass => Optics
  
• Only 5 turns from Thebes forge, can chop it quicker if needed, want to save forests in case we go Mids
• Only two wonders build so far (none of them Eithopia), these are Oracle and Stonhenge
• Zara is not building any threat to me right now, and looks like is focused on expansion

Please review save, and please can I have thinking on Mids as a Play here.

• In comments so far
  • @Fippy feels its a valid play
  • @krikav feels I would be better on infrastructure and getting to astro without the distraction
  • @lymond, @coanda, @sampsa :- what are you thoughts here (not like I'm putting you on the spot

Save attached

 

[lymond]

Sure. I'd build it in Thebes, since you will have a forge soon. Pre-chop the the 6 forests around Thebes and wait for Maths to finish them. (grass hill can be pre-mined/chopped)

Based on what I recall, seems you did not use avoid growth in Thebes after the granary.

Coanda should work the horses. No reason not to work that good tile there. City grows into another scientist. (For some reason I thought you had warrior building there too)

NZ did not take an FP....

I think you are probably done on workers for now. If anything, build settlers.

I woulda gone Myst before Masonry. One for the bonus, and two to open up a path to CoL after Maths. Maybe get the religion but at minimum get the civic. (don't go through Med though if you plan to bulb astro)

Warrior in far NW is not really in great bust position now. I'd move him NE a bit to spy there. Send WC NW to scout a bit and protect that area.

 

[crashmon]

Yea, that was my bad, I set the Thebes city up for first turn, switched it around 2nd turn, but forgot to click avoid growth.

I did have a warrior building in Coanda, but switched it into worker in case we decide to go for Mids. I have 3 cottages around Thebes, and three around Sampsa / Krikav, so should give me some commerce. Want to build one on the FP by Lymond as well.

Will start the pro-chopping fun once I play again, will wait until tomorrow to give others also change for feedback.

Will road to Fippy and NZ as well in case Zara does start to plot...

Question I still have, should I consider Obilisks in Sampsa and NZ to at least get some culture going as well as Libraries

 

[lymond]

Sampsa I'd do a Library. NZ maybe an obelisk whip just to get those better tiles faster. Make sure NZ takes an fp to grow faster to whip that wb.

You might replay back to the turn the granary finished to try the avoid growth trick and see the difference.

 

[coanda]

Pyramids is probably worth it here. It's not a slam dunk like it would be if you had Stone, but unlocking Representation will pay for itself reasonably quickly. You've got a number of cities that can run multiple scientists, you're industrious, and you have plenty of forests to chop. Although I admit I'm a little partial to going for Pyramids when I have a Spiritual leader and can halfway justify it because I find trying to leverage anarchy-free civic swaps fun.

You can stick with binary research and delay Masonry an extra turn; you aren't gaining anything by having it a turn earlier. Mathematics should be finishing about 9 turns from now, so you'll want to be starting on chopping a whole bunch of forests about 7 turns from now. I'd try to carry hammers over into Pyramids off a Forge whip when it's one turn from completion - whipping on a wonder gives reduced hammers, but overflow hammers from a whip on the previous build are full efficiency. I think you can probably get Pyramids somewhere around turn-90 give or take a turn. Very unlikely the AIs snipe it before you on that date and this difficulty, and if they do nearly 500 failgold would be handy on its own.

You're probably not going to be able to take the extra floodplain away from Lalibela. Creative AI with a +25% culture monument who has the city already set up for a while is going to be hard to unseat with cultural pressure, and I wouldn't even try. But a library will be plenty to protect your inner ring - once you've gotten the first border pop, inner-ring plot culture gets a hidden +20 per turn boost. So your library (2 per turn) plus that 20 means Lalibela would need to be generating 22 culture per turn to win the tiles bordering Sampsa. Monument is totally unnecessary.

NZ needs a workboat before anything else. But after the work boat finishes? A monument lets you get a border pop like 15 turns faster I think - which means you can work that horse and chop that forest (that's your 30 monument hammers recovered right there with Mathematics), so your library probably finishes earlier if you go Monument - Library than if you'd just gone straight library.

I'd be strongly tempted to pick up Code of Laws before zeroing in on the Astronomy beeline. With a little planning, Spiritual leaders can essentially get all the benefits of Slavery and Caste System. Just be certain if you decide to go that route that you don't pick up Meditation at any point, because you want to bulb Astro and not Philosophy. And honestly, I'm not convinced the AIs are going to have that much to trade with you by the time you get there if you go direct on Monarch.

 

[coanda]

Oh, and a later thought I had: since you'll have Masonry for a couple turns before the capital finishes the forge and starts the Pyramids, and because your big production priorities seem mostly under control, you could potentially dump a few turns into Pyramids in other cities purely for failgold when the capital finishes it. With Industrious, failgold is going to be more effective than building wealth or research would have been (and you don't even have those unlocked yet).

 

[crashmon]

Start of Turn 90 (not started worker actions yet)

• Am going down CoL route, just finishing maths, now teching Poly
• Have pre-chopped all forests around Thebes, all forest now only 1 turn to chop
• Based on 6 forests to chop = 180 + 29 a turn I am 6 turns away from Mids, feeling that its very high chance I'll get it
• @coanda I also did put 1 turn into Mids in Coanda , so some fail gold coming
• Zara still pleased with me
• Other cities now on granaries / forges / libraries (NZ is doing Obelisk)
• Have 2 WC now just in case our friend zara starts plotting
• Zara only has archers so far, so does not like he has copper or iron yet

Questions

• My other cities, are they optimized correctly (esp Sampsa / Krikav / NZ tiles)
• Hopefully when I get priesthood can start to build ToA or Parthanon for fail gold
• Think I'll build 2 more cities (backfill sheep, and forward settle fish / horse in NW)

Will now wait for feedback

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