[BTS] Need Help on Monarch

[lymond]

My two pence:

I really don't like to see the cap starving like that. I don't think Mids is that pressing to sacrifice the growth. Maybe on high levels something like that would be needed. You've gotta ton of hammers coming in from those chops. Get Thebes to max and keep it there.

I'd liked to have seen the tile cottaged 2S of Thebes before the FP, simply for the tile share between Lymo/Thebes. That cottage will blossom for Bureau sooner.

I'd say let Krik grow to 4 and whip that settler...maybe use the OF into a turn of Mids. I see no point in holding Krik at size 3 otherwise with 1t to grow. Krik can give back pigs to Thebes, and still grow this turn taking lake tile and keeping the scientists + FP. Next turn after whip, Krik takes corn back to finish settler + FP (or maybe move FP citizen to PH mine)

Whip obelisk next turn when Sampsa can take FP. Obelisk probably shoulda been whipped already, but fine to keep those cottages working as much as possible.

Coanda looks fine as is, keep those scientists running there.

Desert mine in Sampsa is pointless over green tile farms or cottages. I would not even bother with that mine. The roads down there are pointless as well for now. Keep priorities straight.

Warrior in Ethiopia can move back for MP in Thebes. Keep WC to the N of Zara ....maybe scout some, but that area seems a thread still not to mention all the stuff way N.

After forge in pigs/clam, I'd consider a tireme or two...get a lot of hammers from 2pop tiremes with a forge. You probably want a tireme there and up in the NE from NZ.


edit: oh..and the 2 warriors in the N can be adjusted to limit barb galley spawn. Move the E tundra guy 1NE on the hill, and the W guy onto the sheep.
The guy N of NZ I think can move up some, since NZ borders take care of some that...I think 6N of NZ is a good spot.

 

[crashmon]

BTW guys, I'm learning loads from this.. really appreciate all the time people are taking on this thread, page 8 and only on turn 90...

 

[krikav]

I just glanced quick at the screenshot, and ofcourse I looked abit extra at the city with my name on it..
It's generally very bad to stagnate cities that close to a growth.

Why? Because then all of the food in the food bar is stagnant, they are not generating anything new.
If you let the city grow, all that food is converted to a population that can in turn start generating something new.

 

[Fippy]

After forge in pigs/clam

You have to rename this into Mylene @crashmon, or Lymond will never spell out the new city name

 

[Gumbolt]

Not really followed this. Thebes could be running the 2C cottage. Not being used by any other city. Agree it should be growing using the pigs too. Has 2 happiness spare!! With mids that would be 5!

I would of liked to have seen more wokboat exploration before barb galeys arrive.

Think lot of micro already discussed above.

Gumbolt is spelt as is. Thanks.

 

[coanda]

Looking through the cities...

Coanda is fine. The cottage up there is a little premature, since it'll be 12 turns before you can start growing it; maybe if you think back over your worker micro you'll see a way you could have saved those worker turns now to (for example) get an extra chop or something.

Lymond is gonna grow to size-4 in two turns. I'd two-pop whip the granary the instant that happens there; overflow could maybe get a warrior since a few of your cities are going to start wanting garrisons for happiness soon.

Thebes needs some tile management. It's starving because it isn't working pigs; it should be - that'd grow it a size next turn, which would be very worth it. Right now it's working a 1C cottage when it could be working a 2C cottage instead, which is simply wasteful. Stop working the cottage at all, grow on the pigs, then work the 2C cottage until you grow again. It also needs to take back that forest tile from Lymond before the chop there completes or Pyramids won't get the hammers.

I would literally starve Krikav -1F per turn working just floodplains and 2x scientist until the first Great Scientist pops out of there in 9 turns. That lets the capital keep working the pigs, Sampsa keep growing on the corn, and honestly the settler isn't a hugely urgent priority anyways. If you work one scientist instead of two, Coanda will generate your first Great Scientist in 10 turns instead - and now Krikav needs to get 200 GPP instead of just 100 to make its own Great Scientist, which means the "I want to work 2 scientists here but don't really have the food surplus for all my cities in this region" headache is extended much longer.

You have 5 roads around Fippy, and they are all pointless. Even the pig road is pointless since you already have pigs and you can see Zara Yaqob does too (no trade value). 10 worker turns you could have saved and used somewhere else.

NZ should whip that monument. That gets you started on the 10-turn countdown to a border pop, which is the slow step in getting that city going. Sampsa will grow a size next turn and can take over working that cottage for a while, so you only lose a single turn of cottage growth.

The desert hill by Sampsa is a lower priority than chopping out Pyramids; if there was a way you could have looped that worker back around Thebes without losing a ton of worker-turns, you should have done it. Also, if you're going to mine a desert hill why not pick one that's shared with Noble Zarkon in case that city ever wants the hammers instead?

Wow, Zara Yaqob's capital has a ridiculous amount of food surplus. Mid-game after you conquer him maybe drop National Epic there and run like 7 or 8 specialists in the city with Caste System just for kicks.

Otherwise things look good. Overall plan seems solid, just some micro efficiencies to tighten up.

 

[crashmon]

Gumbolt is spelt as is. Thanks.

Lol,

 

[crashmon]

Turn 94

I have to say, trying to keep up with each city takes time, its fun but at the same time its so easy to miss something (like working on the wrong cottage for example, or cottaging the wrong spot), I am trying to take in all the advice in the thread, but apologies if I miss something, hopefully I won't make any major mistakes now (Like roading to Fippy), as I feel I'm ahead of all the AI's right now.

So latest update

• We have the MIDS
  
• Thebes has switched to WC as its 2 turns, and I want to explore a little more other side of Eithopia
• After dwelling on the differing advice on Krikav, I decided to go for GS, as I don't urgently need city number 8, so once I have the GS, I will re-grow there with Pigs and give corn back to Sampsa, but for now its shrinking just to get the GS as per @coanda
  
• Thebes will move to working cottages now while I grow.
• Worker is on way to NZ to start to chop forest and pasture horse once I get border pop
• Sampsa is growing like a teenager.... almost every turn, soon I'll be able to whip the Library
• Fippy is now building tiremes
• Workers mainly on cottage duty now.
• Soon I'll be able to see what Zara is tech'ing (he does not have alpha yet)

Spoiler maps :

North East


North west


South West


South East


Wonders

• What to build in Cap after WC? Aqueduct for Hanging gardens Fail gold? more units like warriors or WC's?
• Also should we start colossus in Lymond for fail gold (will be able to start it soon)
• Zara still only has archers right now
• When should my workers switch to workshops over cottages? Most of my cities to the west have lots of food not much production, its fine right now as I can whip, but when we civic switch, they will need more production and workshops.
• When should we switch to Rep?

Last update for today, not sure if I will play tomorrow as promised the wife time, but should be looking at playing again monday, so have plenty of time for feedback.

 

[lymond]

Colossus is a nice fail gold op, whether completed somewhere or not.

Mylene City () can use that OF next turn into it. (if it's finished at all, probably here as you can whip tiremes and a galley into it) All other coastal cities can put extra hammers into it when they can.

NZ building Library is puzzling. Def want gran and lh there first.

Did not totally agree with actions in Krik myself unless one was trying to get a fast academy here. But my assumption is GSs will be used for Optics>Astro bulbing, and there is time for that here. Plus, you will have CoL soon.

Thebes - cottages over mine please (you can keep copper worked though)

HG in Thebes is a thought. Def not WCs. I'd put hammers into duct this turn, then build a quick warrior there and send WC NW to protect that area - I'm a bit concerned about that area and barbs.

I'd trade a couple of 1 resources to Zara for now. I think you can spare it health-wise, and you still have corn to hook up.

oh..and you shoulda switched to Rep asap

 

[crashmon]

I've not lost any time on Rep Have only just build mids.. Why I posted turn 94, and not turn 95

Have switched to Rep.. and resaved.. Not going to re-upload save but we in rep now (love SPI with no anarchy)

 

[crashmon]

Mylene City () can use that OF next turn into it. (if it's finished at all, probably here as you can whip tiremes and a galley into it) All other coastal cities can put extra hammers into it when they can.

Just so I understand this point, I would do something like the following

• Put 1T into Colossus as we have just whipped the forge so colussus gets forge overspill
• Then switch to tireme
• build tireme until I am able to whip
• Whip, then switch to Colssus to get overflow
• rinse and repeat

Do you mean something like that, or am I misunderstand this.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, let's look at it this way first. I consider this a casual - albeit deliberate - build/fail gold of Colossus.

When IND or resource bonuses (or both), I tend use natural OF in cities and feed to wonders. What I mean by natural is "non-whipped" build finishes (unit or building), that often produces at least a little bit of OF. If the city does not otherwise have something pressing to build anyway, let that OF flow into a Wonder at a bonus rate.

Of course, you can also just keep putting hammers into a wonder in cities regardless, if nothing better to do with them a the moment. A great way to accrue a bunch of gold later.

In the case of My City, you just whipped a forge. (I think you 1 popped it..not sure) Appears you will get like 5-10h OF from the whip. Put that into Colossus cause you get bonus on the hammers. But also consider ..say...a tireme build. You want to be 2popping these gusy.

With no forge, 1h into a reme (and My has 1 base hammer at the moment), and a 2pop whip is going to net you no more than 1 or 2h OF. With a forge, it's going to be at least 20H or more.

But also consider "whip points" on an item. Not sure if this has been discussed much. Let's use a reme as an example. A reme cost 50H. A whipped citizen is 30H. So at 20H of production into reme (no forge) it becomes a 1pop whip. At 19H or less it is a 2pop whip.

With a forge, this threshold drops quite a bit. I forget at the moment but something around 10H or less to 2pop. So you need to keep tabs on this when you prepare to whip something. You can also try to maximize the whip OF if you like. (the closer you get to that threshold the more OF you get from a whip)

Lymo will be done with its forge soon enough and you can switch between the cites to put hammers into it. Say that the idea is My will complete the Colossus eventually, so Lymo will be producing fail gold hammers. Maybe NZ at some point to, but it does have more pressing items in the short term, including a likely wb for fish city up there. Ofc, in the case some AI finishes Colossus you will get all fail gold.

Tireme is not necessarily a pressing item, but barb galleys could appear soonish. One coming up from the S fog will eat your seafood.

 

[coanda]

I would say if you decide to put hammers into something for failgold here, be prepared to self-build it somewhere else if necessary. The AIs are not going to be speeding up the tech tree, and you don't have contact with them so you can trade them the necessary tech to enable building the wonder. Stuff like Colossus or Hanging Gardens is not guaranteed to go even before turn 140 on Monarch. Easy to end up sitting on potential fail-gold for a long time, and you are primarily concerned here in this semi-isolated situation with getting to Optics quickly.

 

[crashmon]

Yea, I do want about three tiremes (one to explore, and two to protect what I have N and S), so will switch between these and Colossus....

Should I be considering LH's in my southern coastal cities for extra food. Also I have maori statues unlocked now which is available. Don't think Fippy (Mar) needs a LH, but Lymond might

Finally I am very close to first GS... DO I sit him until he is ready for bulbing? or do I acadamy in Thebes with him

 

[coanda]

Coanda will get your second Great Scientist in about 22 turns, and once Fippy gets going on Caste System scientists it'll generate your third probably not too long after that. So that's your Astronomy double-bulb there, easily in time for it. The only question is whether you'd prefer to use your first Great Scientist on bulbing Optics or on an Academy. The Optics bulb requires that you know Alphabet, so it'd only "save" about 450 beakers of research in terms of getting Optics as fast as possible if you can't get Alpha in trade from Zara Yaqob (not sure whether that will be possible in reasonable time or not). This is a fairly high-commerce capital, or at least it should be once its grown up a bit, and you aren't massively expanded with near-0% slider, so Academy is probably going to be getting you like +15 beakers per turn pretty soon. Which means if you can't get Alphabet from Zara Yaqob, bulbing Optics wouldn't really be faster than self-teching it but would leave you in a weaker general position going forward. If you can get Alphabet from Zara you'd save a handful of turns with the bulb approach, but the total utility is restrained by how useful techs you can get in trade from contact with other AIs are and - once again - you don't have the academy in your capital so your own research rate after that point is a little slower. I'd lean strongly towards Academy in your situation.

Speaking of the capital - it doesn't really need production any more. There's nothing particularly useful for it to build right now, as its main priority is to grow. Pull it off that plains-hill mine. Pass the gold to Lymond, and put Thebes on cow, pigs, copper, 3x cottage. Then when Krikav finishes the Great Scientist in a few turns have it take over the copper (and I'd also take the corn from Sampsa at that time) so the capital can grow even faster. When it gets up to size-10, which shouldn't take long at all growing on cow, pigs, a granary, and pretty soon only 2F cottages after that, it can take the gold back from Lymond because it's reached the happy cap and can't grow further. Potentially also passing the pigs to Krikav at that time to work more cottages, or adding a couple scientist specialists plus pigs and working fewer cottages.

 

[crashmon]

By the time Kirkav gets the GS, I will be able to see what Zara is tech'ing... and he does not have alpha yet... So I think that decision can wait until we see what Zara is planning and make the call then

 

[crashmon]

Turn 98

• Just whipped a Tireme into colossus in Fippy (Mar), will switch to 2nd Tireme next turn
• Zara is Tech'ing Monachy (4 turns) , so will build acadamy in Thebes (will get GS next turn)
• Then will do tile switching as per @coanda
• Soon will be able to chop / whip forge at Lymond, then will do the Colossus switch between Fippy / Lymond
• NZ worker going to chop forest, ready for NZ border pop, then will work horses

Spoiler maps :

North East


North West


West (Eithopia)


South West


South East

Next steps (if any of this needs to be modified ofc pls feedback)

• Get the two settlers out
• Get the next 2 GS out
• Do the Colossus switcheroo between Fippy and Lymond
• Infrastructure
• Will probably get a couple more workers out as well
• and most importantly TECH, TECH and TECH

Question

• Is it worth Hanging Gardens in Cap, while I am growing?

Save attached

 

[lymond]

Ah...too bad you did not 3pop that library in sampsa last turn at 29H of production for max OF. Go ahead and whip it now regardless.

Workshop is irrelevant now. Maybe prechop in Thebes for HG.

I'd probably farm some around that lake between sampsa/krik since you are running rep...more food would not hurt there.

Are you noting the hammers in My City from the OF and impact on Colossus....just making sure you see that. Probably look to start grow in that city for now in expectation of caste.

Thebes should be working that river cottage at least until Lymo can work it...that tile more important that non-river cottage. Thebes can take Coanda cottage that is not being worked once Krik takes copper. Prioritize river cottages always over non-river.

 

[crashmon]

Turn 102

Only 4 turns played but so much has happened

• Have teched CoL this turn
• Acadamy founded in Thebes
  
• Whipped the Forge in Lymond into Colussus before switching to Lighthouse
  
• Whipped the Tireme in Fippy into Colossus this turn before I switched to Caste system
• Confectism founded in Fippy, sending missionary to Thebes
• Settler on way to Fish City, Kirkav building Worker atm
• Zara has a settler going way up north, can't see anything, think Iron must be up there
• NZ borders have popped, worker pasturing horses
• Tiles working as per @coanda post above right now

Spoiler Maps :

North East


North West


South West


South


South East

Next steps (please feed back)

• Once Fippy grows will run 2 scientists (only 1 right now as want to grow)
• Going to keep Fippy on Colossus (lymod has some FG)
• Lymond should I build LH, or switch to Tireme / galley
  
• Zara is still at pleased
• Final city for now will be near sheep (unless we have seafood to South Island, then will build Galley at Lymond and take settler there)
  
• After Aquaduct in Thebes, will switch to HG
• Otherwise all about growth right now

Save attached.......

Questions

• When to think about Moai Statues
• Any buildings / units I should priotise (ie WB in NZ for fish city, fish city can work horses at first while I build WB? )
• crossing fingers that after Monachy, Zara will tech Alpha

 

[coanda]

Moai statues isn't a very good wonder in its own right - it's 250 hammers, so for a normal leader you'd want the city to be working something like 7, 8, 9 water tiles to pay itself off in reasonable time. Which doesn't happen. Water tiles without resources are simply not that good, and if you have the food surplus to grow up to that size in reasonable time you'd probably just run a bunch of specialists instead. Even for an IND leader you're still talking 5 or 6 water tiles worked, which is very unlikely. However, if you have stone it's a reliable source of failgold. It's relatively cheap, it's a national wonder, it gets +100% production from stone, and it never goes obsolete which means you can use it (one time only) for failgold at any point in the game with no limit on "if the AI gets there too early I can't put failgold hammers into it because it's already gone."

You don't have stone here, and your coastal cities are already getting failgold on Colossus instead, so I wouldn't worry about it yet. Sooner or later you'll probably get stone this game, and it might be worth thinking about then depending on the overall situation at the time.