[BTS] Need Help on Monarch

Yep, Maoi is never a given. I view it as a kind of fun wonder sometimes, but mainly use it for fail gold if I have stone.

Lymo fine with a LH for now.

Zara should get Confused soon I think.

Might of held off the Caste switch for a bit for some whips, like in NZ. Get a WB fast for new city.
 
Turn 108

  • 2 new Cities founded (Gumbolt and Jnebbe)
  • Found great city spot on island to south, will build galley and take settler + worker to spot
  • Have either Inca or Charley to South, but can't get across ocean to talk to them
  • Tireme is on way north to protect north coast
  • 2nd Tireme protecting south coast
  • Thebes is building HG, and is working cottages
  • Fippy running 2 Sci, when grows again will run 3
  • Zara is tech'ing writing so crossing fingers he will next go alpha
  • Krikav has ordered an american hot with extra chicken and chillies for fail gold
  • Other cities building infra and starting to run specialists.
  • have Iron working now, and have Iron in my territory
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Main focus now is to try and get to optics as quick as possible now I can see third civ, also by building a city on a island that should also help my commerce hopefully

Again feedback always welcomed
 

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Thebes is working an ugly plains tile with no improvement when there is a grassland forest and a plains forest and a plains mine that it could work instead, depending on what you want. I would work the grassland forest.
Coanda has a cottage that is not being worked, imo I would work the cottage over a scientist, I don't think there is any rush to get the GS out. Also gets the settler out faster.
Noble Zarkon is working an ugly grassland tile, I would have it work one of Samsa's cottages and have Sampsa work the unworked farm.
Both Jnebbe and Gumbolt are running an artist, which ordinarily isn't a bad thing, but there is no need for a border pop right now given that there are no good tiles in the second ring.
 
WB shoulda been whipped already. Try to get in the mindset of having seafood netted immediately, if possible. In this case it was very possible.

Thebes can simply run an Engineer now rather than unimproved tile.

If Zara does not go Alpha next, you may just have to tech yourself as you will need it to bulb. I can't recall if iso-AI will trade Alpha or not anyway. At least you can build research.

Sampsa on iron.

ugh..forgot you were in caste. Use the PH in NZ until the WB finishes....and probably the gran too.
 
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Ok, I've double checked the cities this turn, it looks like every time I grow, it defaults to an Artist. So cities should be working now and not on artists (Sci is ones I have placed).

So Turn 115 / 1AD.

Time to take stock, as this is usually a good point to review

  • Thebes will soon complete HG, and is working cottages
  • Krikav is working towards fail gold, and is also on cottages
  • Samspa will soon have a forge, so should speed up other builds
  • Lymond will finish the galley, to take the settler building in Coanda and a worker to the south island
  • Fippy running scientists and slow build colossus
  • Other cities on Forges / granaries / LH (if coastal)
  • Workers almost finished cottaging
  • 1 turn from Mach, then onto compass
  • fudgingg Zara on HBR, wish he would go to alpha
  • if he does not go alpha, I might tech it myself before compass
  • Either Holy Rome or Inca to south as well
  • I will start a WB in Fippy once my 10th city on the island is built and is close to an obelisk for a culture pop, would be building it now, but the seafood won't be in inner circle
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So looks like lots of land to south and west of Zara, is there a concern he will expand too much here, and do I need to take steps before Lib and cuirassiers (use treb's / knights/ macemen), or do I just tech my way to cuirs and take him them (ofc if he starts plotting decision is made)

Am taking that island to south, lots of food and commerce potential there.

So what should be plan to 500AD, continue my merry way to Astro and then music?

Again thoughts etc.
 

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So looks like lots of land to south and west of Zara, is there a concern he will expand too much here
No. Immortal AI never expands too much to become a runaway, so neither will monarch AI. Only on deity should you worry about what the AI is doing, assuming you build up your empire correctly (as you have done). :)
 
Well, if you are running caste you can use an artist for a necessary border pop. Have WB ready to net the turn borders pop..so time build to that.

Thebes needs fixing...you seem to lose focus sometimes on what cities are working.

I'd be looking to grow coanda after settler...(really woulda liked to have seen that earlier)

I think you are going to have to go Alpha like I mentioned.

Could go to Music later for the great artist (golden age), then I'd be thinking about Philo for Pac then Edu-Lib.
 
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~17 turns for Optics from now. If you've got a Trireme pre-positioned around that island city to the south, for a bit of gold you could immediately upgrade it to a caravel to make contact with the civ to your south the turn after you get Optics. Then that caravel could head west while another one could head east from Coanda. After that you may need to self-tech Alphabet (depending on whether you still can't find an AI to trade it to you), may need to self-tech Calendar, then the Coanda and Fippy Great Scientists double-bulb Astronomy for instant completion somewhere around turn 140-ish. I'd wait on even thinking about what you do after Astronomy at least until Optics and Alphabet is giving you a bit better idea of the overall state of the game.

Keep in mind that since you are a Spiritual leader, you don't necessarily need to stay in Caste System all the time if you don't want to. There's a 5-turn cooldown between civic swaps, but you can for example spend 5 turns in Caste then 5 turns in slavery. During the 5 turns in Caste, some of your cities (those who don't need whip production) can starve a bit running excess specialists, while other cities grow up in size. Then during the 5 turns in slavery the cities that were slowly starving rebuild their food storage, while the cities that were growing can whip that population for production. You could use this to get things like the granaries in Gumbolt and Jnebbe built a bit faster. It's not something you have to do, but if you want to get every bit of mileage out of Spiritual it's an option to keep in mind. Things you'd probably like to whip: Gumbolt granary (1-pop whip after the forest chop finishes in 2 turns), Jnebbe granary (any time in the next 3 turns is equally good, after that would start costing you food), Lymond lighthouse (preferably the turn after it hits size-6, where if Thebes has taken the gold tile over it should be just under 30H on the Lighthouse and you could overflow almost 30 hammers into something like Colossus), possibly a Fippy Tririme for eventual upgrade to Caravel with optics or work boat for the new city. If you did it all right, you might be able to for example run slavery from turn 117-122, back to Caste System on turn 122, get some good production without dramatically slowing your teching.

Don't worry about Zara Yaqob expanding too much. He's vastly far behind in tech already and simply falling further behind; when you feel like it you'll be able to conquer him easily, any land he develops in the meantime is to your benefit.

Looking through your cities...

Gumbolt would ideally whip that granary about 7 or 8 turns from now, if you can find time to work a handful of turns in slavery into your civics. A Representation scientist there is more useful than an unimproved plains forest.

Ideally you'd have let Coanda grow to size-5 before starting that settler.

Let Lymond finish that galley next turn if you can; that way it can move E-NE, then next turn when Coanda finishes the settler galley moves N, scoops up the settler, and heads towards the new city. I might consider trying for a 2-pop whip on that lighthouse in two or three turns to overflow hammers into Colossus with an eye to failgold. That sets you up for building the city on turn 127, and a turn 130 border pop from an Artist specialist, so you want one work boat there by turn 130 and another by turn 133 or so. Because the galley will be passing by Fippy on turn 122, if you have a worker in the area ready it can hop onto the galley turn 122, hop off onto the horses on turn 123, pasture them turns 124-128, hop back onto the galley turn 129, and be ready to move again in Fippy turn 130 (or get carried south by the galley to chop forests for the new city).

Thebes is finally going to hit happy cap next turn (for now, at least); that's a sign for it to consider taking the gold back from Lymond since the lack of food surplus no longer hurts it and the Academy can make better use of the commerce. Then it could work the inland lake 2F2C tile, and pass the pigs off to Krikav to grow on. Not sure about the point behind that random workshop between Krikav and Thebes. You don't really want to finish Hanging Gardens in Thebes if you can avoid it; ideally you'd prefer to collect the failgold off it instead. When it's got one turn remaining I'd swap onto something else and starting Hanging Gardens in a second city (such as Krikav). Worst-case you might end up finishing Hanging Gardens eventually, which is not the end of the world.

Krikav looks fine. I'd have stopped with 1 farm - the capital is going to be happy cap pretty soon, which frees up the pigs, so it should have a lot of surplus food soon anyways.

Sampsa and Noble Zarkon look fine. Get a mine on that grass hill for Noble Zarkon to grow onto. Ideally that granary might have been whipped a while ago, but slow-building it will be okay.

If you're thinking about a brief stint in slavery soon, I'd hop off the horses and run 4 scientist specialists in Fippy for the next couple turns. If you want to keep it simple, current mix is fine.

The new city will be useful but not huge, because you don't have Currency for 2 trade routes per city. So most of your cities already have foreign trade routes (2C) that will not be replaced by the new city's overseas internal trade route (2C). Jnebbe will get +1 commerce, and the new city itself will be 2C from trade and 3C from ordinary production, +6C net. Won't quite offset added upkeep costs, probably about 10 gold per turn, so it's actually going to slow down your tech rate slightly in the very short term. Still worth setting up though, about 10 turns after you've settled it, it can be size-3 with probably fish, clams, and a specialist, by which point it is a net positive and it just grows from there. If you weren't going to have Optics fairly soon anyways, you might prefer to settle that city 2S1E - a pretty useless location in its own right, but with one border pop it would make contact with that civ to the south.
 
Great advice as always thank you guys

The new city will be useful but not huge, because you don't have Currency for 2 trade routes per city. So most of your cities already have foreign trade routes (2C) that will not be replaced by the new city's overseas internal trade route (2C). Jnebbe will get +1 commerce, and the new city itself will be 2C from trade and 3C from ordinary production, +6C net. Won't quite offset added upkeep costs, probably about 10 gold per turn, so it's actually going to slow down your tech rate slightly in the very short term. Still worth setting up though, about 10 turns after you've settled it, it can be size-3 with probably fish, clams, and a specialist, by which point it is a net positive and it just grows from there. If you weren't going to have Optics fairly soon anyways, you might prefer to settle that city 2S1E - a pretty useless location in its own right, but with one border pop it would make contact with that civ to the south.

I'm also planning new City (FishMan) as potential gathering point for any invasion to the land to the south
 
Thebes needs fixing...you seem to lose focus sometimes on what cities are working.

Hence the whole pupose of this thread.. I've never micromanged cities to this extent before, its good fun but while I'm learning this I am going to keep slipping up which is why I keep posting.. Its not deliberate, with 9 soon to be 10 cities now, and with them interlinked, making a change in say coanda will impact thebes, so I go to thebes to adjust, which might impact Lymond and Krikav, so I'll go to Krikav, adjust, go to sampsa, adjust, go back to Krikav re-adjust then forget I have to go back to thebes:cry:

So you guys need to keep pulling me up on this so it gets stuck into my thick head when I am doing this, or I won't reach my goal of beating Immortal regularly by end of 2021
 
At least for me, city management works best when you keep governor on and :food: icon clicked. From the big map you can see what tiles are worked, and whenever a weak tile is worked you can enter city screen to adjust. You'll learn to see what tiles a city sized 3 should be working and if it is working those tiles.
 
Will post an update tomorrow, am still trying to take in @coanda's post (its a fantastic post, but so much embedded in it).. I think I'll split it into sections then ask a few further questions before playing next few turns......

I know on Monarch staying in Caste would be fine, but I want to get this Caste => Slavery => caste right, as once I fully get this I'll need it on harder levels... When to do it, why to do it and when to switch back are key here....

For instance question 1 on this

1) I am 2 turns from Settler in Coanda, 1 turn from galley, and I have a worker ready to put on boat.
2) So thinking if to switch to Slavery to do it once settler is built
3) Then I have 5 turns to whip in the other cities (ie the LH in Lymond, Granary in Gumbolt etc)
4) Switch back to caste once I get to the island for city 10, as then can run a Artist for border pop
5) worker would work horses, then help FishMan (city 10) with chops..

I know there is more in the post about what tiles to work etc, will get to that as I digest that post in more detail, but in terms of time line is my 1 to 5 above looking optimal, or should I stay in Slavery longer?
 
You built Gumbolt. :goodjob: Game won.

If you zoom out on map and go to culture view you can see an Ai to the south. Think you would need a border pop to meet them. Yellow culture is a give away.

You will have caravels soon enough. Currency for trade routes would be nice too.

Zara can still plot at pleased.
 
You want to spend as short a stint in slavery as possible. If the game allowed you to, you'd switch to slavery, queue up all the whips, and switch back to Caste System without even ending the turn in slavery. Game won't let you (5 turn minimum cooldown on civic swaps), so you spend 5 turns in Slavery and get back to Caste afterwards. That sort of swap is incredibly painful if you have a turn of anarchy each way (a non-Spiritual leader simply won't do it, too costly), but for a SPI leader the "cost" is simply not running Caste System for 5 turns. And if you're careful about managing specialists and food levels you can often offset most or even all of that cost.

"Finish settlers before civic swaps" is generally good advice, but - again - does not apply to Spiritual leaders who get anarchy-free switches. While sometimes you might look at things like "I'm one turn from Currency, but will be two turns away if I leave Caste System now," "in three turns I'm going to get Civil Service and want to be ready to switch into Bureaucracy instantly that turn," or "I've got two turns until I generate a Great Scientist who is going to immediately bulb Liberalism for me," none of those apply here. Switch based on whip timings, so that 5-turn window will catch all the whips you want in cities. My recollection was that switching in two turns and switching back in seven worked, although I haven't opened up the save to take another look.
 
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What they said, but you don't need to overthink it here. Generally in most games caste is something you adopt to run more specialists - usually scientists - for bulbing. Often, if not spiritual, I will adopt it while running a Golding Age (free civics switch plus bonus to GPP). Though it does not necessarily have to be with that way.

As a spiritual leader you have the luxury of going caste at any time - well every 5 turns. Obviously, the goal is to run more specialists, or in some cases run them in cities that otherwise could not. To a lesser degree it can be used for quick border pops if needed. But the emphasis is on running specs to pump out more great folks - namely GSs for now.

So you have to think of it two ways. The need for whipping to get necessary infra - or some settlers/workers. (In other cases it may simply be that you are in a war). And the need or value of Caste at that point in time. Can you really make use of it based on your cities population. You are getting to that point now were cities can grow into 3, 4 or more scientists. Any turns they you cannot run those extra guys is slowing your GPP and the targeted goals for that. But 5 turns of slavery is not bad to get out a few quick things. Often you can the things you need within that window.

As Coanda said though, as a Spiritual leader, stay in Caste as much as you can, and use logic to determine good points to switch out for a spell. It looks like you already are doing that or at least thinking on it.

You could also ask yourself if you really need to whip anything short term rather than just slow build those items and let cities grow into scientists. Gumbo's gran can be sped up by taking horses. NZ can probably start running some specs. Lymo's lh could be slow built, it is not that far off.

The most important build imo is wb(s) for new city to time with its border pop..
 
Played 4 more turns (to turn 119)

  • We in Slavery
  • Have whipped in Lymond (LH), Fippy (WB), Gumbolt (Gran), NZ (LH), Jnebbe (Gran)
  • Fippy is not building Moai Statues, just need to put overflow somewhere, as Lymond is putting overflow into colossus
  • Fippy switch back to colossus (might let fippy build it, have culture there I think will help, and Fippy already has good culture right now, so be good push back on zara)
  • Building Aquaduct in Krikav as need it for health (Zara nothing to trade right now)
  • Switched pizza making duties to Sampsa. Sorry @krikav I know your starving for some good pizza, but your getting too fat :nono:, and need an Aquaduct for health and diet reasons
  • Other cities on forges, or other improvements, will switch pizza making around for extra FG
  • Will stop HG at 1 turn left in Thebes (want the fail gold for optics / astro / cal)
  • Will switch back to CS as soon as I can
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Edit updated save as we can get Compass in 2 turns, but not redoing screenshots
 

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Aqueducts are terrible buildings. It's 100 hammers for, best case, +2 food per turn. They are very rarely worth building, almost the only reason is because you want to work on Hanging Gardens for failgold and are Industrious, have stone, or both. The actual health benefit is minimal. That's also a reason Hanging Gardens is one of the less-efficient failgold conversions, because the 100 hammers into the Aqueduct prerequisite is an unpleasant up-front cost.

Usually you can handle health with resource trades. In your case, for example, the only reason Krikav is at the edge of health right now is because you've apparently traded your only clams away to Zara Yaqob (you could cancel that deal as soon as it lets you, or in about 10 turns you'll be getting another clams from your new city). And about 20 turns from now you're going to have Astronomy and can hopefully start getting resources like Wheat, Rice, bananas, deer, at which point your health problems are solved for the near future. Spending 10 turns and 100 hammers to build an Aqueduct, when 10 turns after that you don't need the health anyways, is essentially spending 100 hammers and getting maybe 20 food back. Not at all a good conversion.

Fippy needs to make a second work boat for the new city. And you might want another trireme too, so you can get it ready to upgrade to caravel and sail off making contact the moment you get optics. Better use of the overflow hammers than Moai would be. Even a lighthouse wouldn't be a total waste; 1 more food per turn while in Caste, and 3-5 more food per turn next time you switch into slavery for a 5-turn whip window.

As a general note for future games, the number of forges you are building this game make sense for an Industrious leader who has gold, but it would be overkill in a typical game.

Keep checking your tiles and thinking about worker priorities. Unimproved grass plain in Gumbolt, and preferably you'd be cottaging the grass tile before you cottage the plains tile. Unimproved river grass in Coanda which wants a cottage; running a second scientist is better than that grass. Plains cottage instead of plains riverside cottage in Thebes, easy +1 commerce. Engineer specialist in Lymond is polluting your GP pool and running the risk of that city maybe some day generating a Great Engineer when you want a Great Scientist or Great Merchant, and you could just work something that produces 2F instead. Then when you get back into Caste system you can run an extra scientist for a little bit as a result of the extra food. Engineer specialist in Krikav should be a scientist. Fippy doesn't have a ton of useful stuff to work just due to lack of Caste System for a few more turns, but a 2F tile is better than a 1F2C tile for it (ideally you'd cottage that tile or maybe daisy-chain a farm over there after Civil Service, but for something you're only going to work 3 more turns then probably not work again for a long time it's not a huge priority).
 
Yea I was also thinking about putting Thebes on Chicken Pizza, and switching Krikav to HG, but need Aquaduct for that.
Want to finish Colossus as want fail gold soon, as want to get alpha and Calendar very quickly after optics

Will review what the cities are on, they should not be on engineers
 
Complete HG asap. It could go soon and the extra pop will be very nice now. Its not a wonder one generally fail golds due to the huge hammer investment in a not so optimal prereq.

Thebes can run an engi, but yeah, you want at least 2 GSs short term.
 
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