Need some diplomacy advice

[littlej]

Ever since BTS came out I've been having some difficulties and I was wondering what I'm doing wrong. My typical game is an epic speed, big & small map, standard size & noble difficulty.

The problem I'm having is more or less along the lines of diplomacy. Either I get everyone p'd at me and get invaded on 4 fronts (not to mention my people are unhappy because the world considers me a villian) or everyone is so darn happy with everyone that I'm afraid to attack anyone because it will lead to "You attacked a friend" and start making everyone mad at me again.



For example, in my current game I'm Sumerian (sorry no screen shots), I was pinned down at the bottom of a peninsula and I was pinned in by Monty of all people. Thanks to my Vultures, Monty was mince meat but the land I was settled in was kind of barren and low on the food production, so I really needed to keep pushing a little further and find some prime real-estate.

That's when I find that both Pascal (Hindu) & Justinian (Buddist) are just north of where Monty was and Zara Yaqob is just north of both of them. I was just waiting for Zara to pick a religion and I would have attacked but before the next turn he chose Hindu and Justtinian also change to Hindu and of course all three where extremely happy with each other and I'm still pinned down in my little area with only 4 cities.

Well it turned out that of the 7 remaining civs, that 6 of them are all on my continent and they are all Hindu. They all have big pluses towards each other and I just don't want to fall back into the pattern of p'ing everyone off and getting the old circle boot again. I've fallen behind in the tech race big time because I didn't have room to expand (without force) and I only have mediocre land to begin with. My only real option would be to take over that civ that was out in the ocean all by themselves and hope I'm not too late for a space race victory but I think I've waited WAY too long.



Anyways, does anyone have some tips for diplomacy? Should I have tried to pump out a different religion and hope someone switched or can I do anything with spies to get other civs mad at each other or at me without me making the world mad at me? Should I try and get someone to declare war on me (which would hopefully turn a shared ally against him)?

Thanks

 

[madscientist]

OK, how I would have tried that diplomacy game. You have 2 religious leaders who's favorite civic is theocracy. I would have adopted that along with Buddhism. Build monestaries and force feed Buddhism down Zara and Justinian throats, trading to get them to switch when you can. If they have enough cities converted they will not convert back.

You waited and seen which sometimes works, but you had a chance to shake things up.

Now, I would adopt theocracy and Hinduism, mass feed buddhist missionaries to Pascal and antagonize himinot a war if you can (probably tough because you are likely please already).

You can also wait, Pascal may slip into FR if he builds the Swan Palace but unlikely.

Sounds like you need the fist of diplomacy (declare war on Pascal). A -1 modifer for declaring war will be minor compared with the same religion and favorite civic.

 

[littlej]

Yeah, I did wait too long. I should have just marched on Pascal or Justinian while I still had a large force of Vultures. As for favourite civic, I almost always forget about that.

Is there a way to tell at which point the computer is willing to attack you or not? For example Monty will attack just because he's Monty but Zara is only medium aggression.

Actually now that I look at it, Monty has a peace probability of 0/30/80/100, so if he's Friendly I don't have to worry but even if he's pleased does it mean I have a 1 in 5 odds of him declaring on me? Where Zara is 10/50/90/100, so a 1 in 10 odds of him declaring on me if he's pleased. With Justinian being 30/80/100/100, I don't really have to worry about him unless I really make him furious.


So now I need to look up all the diplomacy plus and negatives.

 

[madscientist]

Yeah, I did wait too long. I should have just marched on Pascal or Justinian while I still had a large force of Vultures. As for favourite civic, I almost always forget about that.

Is there a way to tell at which point the computer is willing to attack you or not? For example Monty will attack just because he's Monty but Zara is only medium aggression.

Actually now that I look at it, Monty has a peace probability of 0/30/80/100, so if he's Friendly I don't have to worry but even if he's pleased does it mean I have a 1 in 5 odds of him declaring on me? Where Zara is 10/50/90/100, so a 1 in 10 odds of him declaring on me if he's pleased. With Justinian being 30/80/100/100, I don't really have to worry about him unless I really make him furious.


So now I need to look up all the diplomacy plus and negatives.

I never bother withe numbers, takes some of the flavor out of the game.

Zara is a zealot and the same religion alone almost guarentees he will not attacked. The same civic solidified that.

Justinian is also a zealot but theocracy means alot to him (unlike Isabella where the religion is key). He is usually OK, but unpredictable enough to launch a sneaky and often dangerous attack. And he will attack your weakest point.

Pascal is rather peaceful and takes alot to rile up. He also tends to build less military than the others. His favorite civic is HR, so likely the other leaders were running that also unless one of them popped the pyramids.

Montezuma is nuts and unpredictable. He is impossible to keep at friendly and he just needs to slip one turn to pleased to attack. Also he will drag you into numerous wars trying to keep him happy. Best to hate him and be done with it.

 

[Phatkarp]

Where can you find (in game) the leader's favorite civic?

 

[madscientist]

Where can you find (in game) the leader's favorite civic?

In the diplomacy scrren there is a tab at the bottm that says info. Should be there. Otherwise you can check civopdeia

 

[littlej]

I downloaded this http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6570 or this version http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6571

So as long as I have that, plus this chart
Friendly >= +10
Pleased >= +3
Cautious
Annoyed <= -3
Furious <= -10

And roughly here are the general modifiers based on your actions together (this does not include rank or any other hidden modifiers)

MEMORY_DECLARED_WAR -3Pts
MEMORY_DECLARED_WAR_ON_FRIEND -1Pts
MEMORY_HIRED_WAR_ALLY -2Pts
MEMORY_NUKED_US -2Pts
MEMORY_NUKED_FRIEND -1Pts
MEMORY_RAZED_CITY -2.5Pts
MEMORY_RAZED_HOLY_CITY -2Pts
MEMORY_SPY_CAUGHT -1Pts
MEMORY_GIVE_HELP 1Pts
MEMORY_REFUSED_HELP -1Pts
MEMORY_ACCEPT_DEMAND 1Pts
MEMORY_REJECTED_DEMAND -1Pts
MEMORY_ACCEPTED_RELIGION 1Pts
MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION -1Pts
MEMORY_ACCEPTED_CIVIC 1Pts
MEMORY_DENIED_CIVIC -1Pts
MEMORY_DENIED_JOIN_WAR -1Pts
MEMORY_ACCEPTED_STOP_TRADING 0.5Pts
MEMORY_DENIED_STOP_TRADING -1Pts
MEMORY_STOPPED_TRADING -1Pts
MEMORY_HIRED_TRADE_EMBARGO -1Pts
MEMORY_MADE_DEMAND -1Pts
MEMORY_TRADED_TECH_TO_US 0.1Pts
MEMORY_VOTED_AGAINST_US -2Pts
MEMORY_VOTED_FOR_US 2Pts
MEMORY_EVENT_GOOD_TO_US 1Pts
MEMORY_EVENT_BAD_TO_US -1Pts
MEMORY_LIBERATED_CITIES 1.5Pts


I should have a better grasp of how to handle my diplomatic relations. We'll find out tonight.


PS - Thanks MadScientist, you really did help me clear some of that up.

 

[Quotey]

Can't Pacal declare at Friendly? I have heard that he's a backstabber, but he is never in my games. The reference charts never really helped my understanding of AI personalities. Peaceweight 1, are you, Brennus? The hell does that mean, Monty...

 

[madscientist]

I have had pacal declare war but only after really ticking him off for a good long time!

 

[TriPp]

Can't Pacal declare at Friendly? I have heard that he's a backstabber, but he is never in my games. The reference charts never really helped my understanding of AI personalities. Peaceweight 1, are you, Brennus? The hell does that mean, Monty...

Isnt it immpossible for any leader to declare war at friendly? Besides him choosing to go to war with you before relations became friendly?

Peaceweight = 0-10 = Zero meaning they favour peace 10 meaning they favour war.
Is a warmonger considered any leader who starts with a base 2 peace weight?

 

[littlej]

From my understanding of it (through some research) the AI will do a check every turn to determine if it should declare war against anyone (which has more to do with the strength of the AI vs opponent X). If the check comes up yes, it will then check it's diplomatic relations with the opponent it deams worthy to die and that is where the Peace Probability comes in (ie Pacal decides Justinian is ripe for the pickings but has a cautious relationship, so it will he will have a 50% chance of actually declaring war, if Pacal had a Pleased relationship then there is only a 10% chance Pacal will declare war).

Once the computer has determined someone should die and his diplomatic relationships allows him to attack, then he will prepare to invade and declare when he is ready to attack.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if I missed anything.

 

[littlej]

Can't Pacal declare at Friendly? I have heard that he's a backstabber, but he is never in my games. The reference charts never really helped my understanding of AI personalities. Peaceweight 1, are you, Brennus? The hell does that mean, Monty...

I really wouldn't call him a backstabber but since his favourite civic is heredity rule, you'll likely get that early relationship boost (up to +5) and as soon as you switch you automatically lose that. If you had only peacefull or cautious relations, it could drop quickly.

 

[Quotey]

I KNOW that Catherine can declare at friendly, and I wouldn't be surprised if Gilgamesh could.

Does anyone have a list of what the highest relationship an AI will declare at is?

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

The "you declared war on our friend" penalty isn't that big. It's only -1, right? So as long as you don't repeatededly do the attack, take a city, sue for peace, attack again in 10 turns deal, and you wipe out the target in 1 single war, the overall penalty shouldn't be too bad.

Does anyone have a list of what the highest relationship an AI will declare at is?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=236346





No civ will attack at friendly. If you get attacked at friendly it's because they decided to attack you before you were friendly with them, or you have a vassal and they aren't friendly with the vassal. Vassals are amazing for starting wars, since the AI's average the opinion of the master and the vassal, if they're friendly with the master but cautious or annoyed with the vassal, you can often bribe them to attack their friend.

 

[littlej]

That might be my problem right there. I often attack, take a city or two and then declare peace while I rebuild my efforts for another attack. No wonder the world considers me a villian.