Need some help playing philosophical leader

[pokeii]

I want to learn about specialist economy so I started trying Elizabeth. I'm trying this on immortal knowing it will be hard. This time I got very lucky and landed both the GLH (850 BC London) and pyramids (825 BC Nottingham). But I also think I'm lucky I got plenty of grassland, some with rivers. With the extra happiness from representation I'm confused: it will take time to reach max size for cities. So when do I start hiring library scientists? Do I do it differently if I weren't financial? If I make an academy do I put it in my capital?

Side note for the screenshot: I think I started alphabet late (way too much money left). The mod must have told me Zara wants to trade tech but I didn't pay attention. I suspect Stalin is plotting against me but did not go archery immediately.

 

[jorissimo]

I want to learn about specialist economy so I started trying Elizabeth.

Don't even bother with the specialist economy, it's something from the past, it's been refuted since. Specialists should never be the main driver of your economy, they serve mostly for getting great people during golden ages in some food-rich cities.

So when do I start hiring library scientists?

Once you reach the happy cap. But always prioritize working cottages over running scientists.

If I make an academy do I put it in my capital?

Normally you would, but your current capital is not great for commerce. The city east of it on the river is better long term, and you can move your capital there eventually.

 

[Izuul]

Trying to force an entire economy around specialists doesn't usually work very well. I don't know if those old "Specialist Economy" strategy articles are still around, but that's a really outdated concept at this point. Specialists are very powerful, but the primary uses for specialists are:

1) Generating great people. Great people (scientists in particular) are very, very valuable. Lightbulbing techs is very strong - particularly in the early-to-mid game. Knowing which techs can be bulbed, and how to force your great scientists to bulb specific techs is important. There are articles around here with that information, and those are very much still relevant.

2) Supplementing the economy. This is most relevant to your situation. Not all cities have good river tiles for cottages. If a city has a library and a bit of food it can work two Rep scientists. It doesn't need to grow much to do this. If you only have two decent tiles to work then just go for size 4 and work those two tiles and two scientists. Two Rep scientists with a library is 15 beakers per turn + 6 great people points (12 with your Philo leader).

3) Generating research in a low or no commerce start - usually in conjunction with the Pyramids for Rep. If you're lacking river tiles for cottages and other potential early game commerce sources such as gold or gems, Rep scientists and The Great Lighthouse are generally the two options to look at. Both of these wonders are capable of creating an early-game economy in otherwise hopeless looking situations.

In your game here, you have a nice long river and a FIN leader. That's a really good setup for cottages, and it looks like you've focused on getting those built which is good. London only has 1 river tile and plenty of food surplus so that's a good candidate to run a couple of rep scientists. The corn and sheep spots to the east can also work specialists, and you probably want to focus on getting those settled as quickly as possible.

As for the Academy - I wouldn't put it in London here. The idea of putting it in your capital city is to combine it with the Bureaucracy civic, but this is dependent on having high commerce in the capitol and you do not have that here with London. Your options are to move the capital to another city and do it there, or just not worry about it at all. The nice thing about Financial is that you're less dependent on doing that (trying to leverage a huge amount of the economy through one city) since more cities are capable of making significant contributions. That's even more the case here with Rep scientists in other cities that don't have good raw commerce. So in this situation I might forgo the Academy entirely in favor of bulbing something with that scientist.

 

[pokeii]

Thank you. I have a few more questions. At t85 Zara would trade alphabet, and I had 336 gold, slider at 0. I suspect this is bad because I want tech trades early. From the few attempts in immortal difficulty it's hard to get alphabet first. My questions are

(a) What do I research to trade for alphabet? I know if I have marble I probably should go aesthetics. But what should I do here? Metal casting?
Zara will trade alphabet, iron working, archery, polytheism and meditation. I can see he also has monotheism and priesthood. But I think I should not self tech monarchy anyways because of the pyramids.

(b) When should I turn my slider to 100% for this tech? Do I wait for libraries at all?

War Academy still has the two specialist economy articles. I tried to browse the strategy articles forum but there's variation in quality as it seems anyone can write there.

 

[Izuul]

This doesn't cover everything, but it's really good and a bit more than just the basics - despite the title. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/beginner-help-the-basics.648469/

Regarding your questions about the techs:

Once you have the basic techs you need (relevant food techs, mining, bronze working, the wheel, etc), you either want to tech something like Horseback Riding or Math > Construction to rush somebody, or you want to figure out how to get Alphabet so you can start trading with the AI. I'm going to ignore the warfare options here and focus on the latter - getting Alpha. You have two basic options - either tech it yourself or trade for it. If you think the AI are going to be really slow getting to Alpha your best option might be to tech it yourself. If you're on a continents map and only have contact with 2 or 3 AI that's an argument for self-teching Alpha vs being on a single landmass and meeting everyone. The more AI you have contact with the better the odds of one of them getting it in a timely manner. The specific AI also matter a bit because they all have different personalities and some will focus on military stuff and generally have worse economies and slower research while others focus more on economy and economic techs. Lastly, the difficulty also matters. The AI tech really fast on Deity and often at least one of them will get Alpha early, but on Immortal that's not a sure thing.

Now, assuming you've decided to trade for Alpha, the next thing (as you mentioned) is deciding what tech to research to trade for it. The answer to this question is frequently Aesthetics. Why Aesthetics? Because the AI almost never prioritize it. The only AI in the game that i know will actually prioritize Aesthetics early is Hammurabi. On the other hand, the AI highly prioritize Iron Working and Monarchy, and also sometimes Math as well. So IW and Monarchy are techs that you almost always want to trade for, and teching Math in hopes of trading it for Alpha can also be a bit risky. This leaves Aesthetics as a very good and safe option, and it's even better if you have marble because that tech path unlocks several wonders that use marble (Temple of Artemis, Parthenon, and The Great Library) which can be built or used for generating fail gold.

When should you turn the slider on to tech Aesthetics (or whatever)? Typically as soon as you've saved enough gold to get it. If you're running -15gpt at 100% research just look at the turns needed to finish the tech. If it's 10T you're going to need roughly 150 gold so you can bank gold until you get around that point and then turn the slider to 100%. This just buys you time in case you change your mind or you get some information that influences your decision. You've likely waited longer than you really needed to here. If you get Alpha sooner you can sometimes wait to trade for some techs you may kind of need, but aren't critical. Like in your situation here I may or may not have teched Animal Husbandry for just one plains sheep when the capital already has corn and clams. That sheep is a decent tile, but is it worth the 160-170 beakers to get it a little earlier or can that wait until you get Alpha?

 

[pokeii]

I only realize now that the sheep after improvement only gives a hammer more compared to a flood plains farm.

After agriculture finished at T10 I went hunting AH in game, thinking I'll need archery and writing so AH would be cheap because of the discounts hunting->AH->writing. I then got away not doing archery until T90. Is it I didn't need archery because I have high production?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Normally you would, but your current capital is not great for commerce. The city east of it on the river is better long term, and you can move your capital there eventually.

Off-topic.

Academies are generally a mediocre use of a great scientist, but. Just for Elizabeth, I am willing to cottage almost every flat tile around the capital and build an early academy.

 

[Chalybion]

Thoughts on trading for Alphabet at Immortal difficulty (which I play almost exclusively):
- I often self-research Alphabet if my priority is expansion/currency with late war. (i.e. lots of room to expand, friendly neighbors). Then Alpha can trade for IW, Math, Monarchy​

- I don't self-tech Alphabet if:​

1. A leader that prioritizes Alpha is in the game (Zara, Joao, Wilhelm, a few others). But if Joao has a low-commerce capital - don't wait.​

2. A leader has gems/gold in their capital's BFC. The usual sign is that they want to sign open borders before 1800 BC or so​

3. There are multiple financial leaders. (But Mansa is rarely first to Alphabet).​

- If waging early war with horse archers or elephants, I research Horseback Riding, put 2-3 turns research into Alpha, then wait to trade HBR for Alpha. HBR is a reliable trade tech, except if the Mongols or Carthage are in the game (who weight their UU highly)​

- If researching the lower part of the tech tree (e.g. crossbow war, treb war, or low-commerce cannon bee-line), Metal Casting is a good trade. Another civ will often Oracle MC, but won't trade MC while they have a monopoly on it.​

- Aesthetics is the most reliable, especially if your research is behind and has to catch up at all costs. Also super with marble, or when bee-lining Cuirassiers.​

- Code of Laws is trade option #4 (e.g. religion focus [risky!], massive expansion with organized leader, or bee-lining caste/pacifism w/ philosophical leader). If another civ researches first - unlikely they will trade it, and other civs will hold off researching since the religion is taken.​

 

[pokeii]

@Chalybion Thank you but can you tell me how you learned which leader would prioritize alpha? A quick search turned up https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ai-tech-paths.657757/ but I hope I can be forgiven not reading all the cpp

 

[sampsa]

Is it I didn't need archery because I have high production?

You don't need archery in general against barbs. Here the land shape makes it easy to fog bust nearly everything.

 

[Chalybion]

@Chalybion Thank you but can you tell me how you learned which leader would prioritize alpha? A quick search turned up https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ai-tech-paths.657757/ but I hope I can be forgiven not reading all the cpp

I was listing off a few that I remember from experience. Thinking further, there seems to be a good correlation with Leaders who have a "Science" flavor:

Thread 'Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy)'

Oct 23, 2012

Click on the leader link below to view their strategy article

1. Alexander
   
2. Asoka
   
3. Augustus Caesar
   
4. Bismarck
   
5. Boudica
   
6. Brennus
   
7. Catherine
   
8. Charlemagne
   
9. Churchill
   
10. Cyrus
    
11. Darius
    
12. De...

• Kaitzilla
• Replies: 244
• Forum: Civ4 Strategy Articles

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For instance, Tokugawa has "Science (Medium)" flavor, and he is another who is quick to alphabet

 

[pokeii]

You don't need archery in general against barbs. Here the land shape makes it easy to fog bust nearly everything.

Many times I get a high food start and cannot get enough warriors. I know I can play with overflows, perhaps combined with whipping of workers/settlers but it still doesn't seem to be enough short of chopping for warriors (if I get a big overflow after chopping for a worker I think essentially I chopped for warrior) or non-river mines. I think I'll post the start next time when I get that problem.

 

[Chalybion]

Yeah, chopping a warrior sometimes make sense before the first settler on high food starts. Even if you can't fogbust all of your land, a good fogbust will force barbarians to spawn further from your borders, giving an extra 5-10 turns to hook up a strategic resource before they attack.

 

[pmarc]

If possible, you can also work a hammer-heavy tile to produce a quick warrior while your worker is improving the first food resource.

 

[sampsa]

If possible, you can also work a hammer-heavy tile to produce a quick warrior while your worker is improving the first food resource.

Yes, this is a very good tip especially if you don't have extra city center.

I would also recommend all ambitious players watch this content at least partly: https://www.youtube.com/@drewphataman5208

 

[pokeii]

I tried your suggestions in a new game, skipping hunting archery AH before alphabet and survived with warriors. I'm very happy I got AH by selling writing (teching hunting just after alpha). There are two barb cities outside though, one just popped when I was about to settle. I'm quite scared so I settled with an iron working+archery for alpha trade.

 

[Gumbolt]

What difficulty level are you playing?

For me you should have more cities by this date. 6-7 maybe.
You only have 3 workers? Not enough for 5 cities and all that forest still to chop by 650bc.
London is not growing as you are building settlers. Or have you been whipping it? I would not be running specialists in your capital as it needs to grow.
Have you got foreign trade routes yet as this is worth more than the GLH.
If you have built wonders you will get a GE or GM anyway eventually. You need cities size 10-14 to make specialists work during golden ages.

 

[pokeii]

@Gumbolt

This was immortal.
Was going for the wonders a bad idea? I went that way because I settled on stones, not food resources but a lot of forests in Nottingham. I realize the choice might have been bad because of the late finish dates and still having space to expand into.
London was at size 6 when I got GLH. I 3 pop whipped a library and did the settlers at 5 pop because I really didn't have that many good tiles.
I had trade routes with Zara. I later reloaded and roaded into Russia. Eventually I loaded too many times and put the game aside.

Edit: I did a 3 pop whip, and in the same turn switched to rep. The library was not finished until the next turn but at the next turn I started with 4 pop and when I started the settlers I was at 5 pop. I did not know this could happen. I was very close to size 7 when I whipped.

 

[pokeii]

Yes, this is a very good tip especially if you don't have extra city center.

I would also recommend all ambitious players watch this content at least partly: https://www.youtube.com/@drewphataman5208

Should I do settler first even without imperialistic? Here I rolled a map with one flood plain and a plains cow but I'm on a PH. Elizabeth, pangea, immortal. I think if I go worker first I would farm the flood plain, build a mine and chop, which is not that attractive.

 

[Chalybion]

Should I do settler first even without imperialistic? Here I rolled a map with one flood plain and a plains cow but I'm on a PH. Elizabeth, pangea, immortal. I think if I go worker first I would farm the flood plain, build a mine and chop, which is not that attractive.

You have commerce for either AH or BW. AH isn't really worth a single plains cow, until other AH resources are revealed. England starts with mining.
Suggested build order:
- Worker (will mine both grass hills)
- Warrior (growing on FP, should reach size 2 at same time warrior completes)
- Settler, working both grass hills and chopping forests

Find somewhere food rich to settle, and only use your capital for pumping out settlers until food techs+pottery come online

Edit: Tech order
Bronze Working first, probably followed by Agriculture