Need some help with Japan

[GuitarDemon]

Absolutely still loving this mod after so many hours

Japan is one of the few UHV I struggle to beat, think the closest I came but ultimately started to greatly lose the tech race against the US and had too weak of an army to destroy them

Need some advice on how to do better with Japan.

Usually I’ll leave two cities and get try get the cultural requirements early, conquer Korea early (usually China will declare war on me then), settle Manchuria quickly, keep good relations with all euro/ American civs so I can start to catch up tech wise. And then try to rush the rest of Southeast Asia before the dead line hoping a late colony stack doesn’t appear.

I think my fault is im not a good city manager type player and Japan requires you make most of Kyoto and Tokyo’s resources and water tiles. So any advice is appreciated

 

[BaneFire]

UHV2 for Japan isn't actually that difficult - providing that luck is on your side.
Obviously a statement like that is filled with conditionals, but basically consider that:
>> Independent cities within a region do not count as contesting the region. If you control just Beijing and every other Chinese city is independent, you control China. However if a single Chinese city is controlled by someone else (eg, Guangdong/Cantao/Hong Kong), it is contested. <<
As such this is what enabled me to secure victory without conquering *all* of Indonesia - I only had to take Java and that was enough.

This can be equally infuriating though - one test run saw me take half of Indonesia, only for them to fudging rebirth in 1939 after I collapsed the Thai who controlled Singapore. Oops.
In general though collapses are in your favour - Asian civs have high collapse rates, and you should be able to steamroll China with just 4-6 Samurai and 2-3 Trebuchets, improving them with gunpowder and other relevant techs.

I'm with you on the tech problems though - America was a full 8 techs ahead of me, getting 8 global techs before I managed to even get 1. Ouch. Perhaps the key is to release China? It just might not be that worthwhile to have.

 

[BaneFire]

Here's the aftermath of one particularly brutal game. I had long since lost UHV3 to America, but was determined to win by a score victory, yet they kept constantly outpacing me.
So I did the one thing that I could - I prepared a nuclear invasion of America.

Seized the coast with a number of marines and a naval force, also landing with tanks, infantry and mobile artillery. We were out-teched by America but I took the fascist civics and outnumbered them at the start of the war. By the time I nuked Denver they were starting to push back though.

 

[BaneFire]

My final push sadly ended in failure. A nuke on Grand Forks and Chicago STILL didn't push America's score below mine - but taking Grand Forks was just enough to inch me, barely, over them in points.
Unfortunately with only a few turns left America was able to deploy brand new Jet Fighers and Main Battle Tanks, which shot down my nuclear bombers and crushed my infantry and marines. I was still a tech away from nuclear power and sadly no tech-trading with other civs could push my score over the American one.

gg Roosevelt, I suppose.

 

[JHLee]

Finish Goal1 with Kyoto/Edo, rush Korea and China, (and burn/resettle Xian 1S if you can), catch up on tech till you have at least ballistics, kill USA and Eng (because they usually have the tech lead), try to delay Russia/Germany as much as you can.

 

[Nyayr]

You can cheat a little with Starting as Korea and give Japan a little head start if that isn't against your morals, hehe.

 

[GuitarDemon]

thanks for the advice guys

After some thought I realized Ive done the first two UHVs many times so maybe thats not my issue, my issue is specifically the late game tech race. The only time i tried to kill USA I was outright crushed.

One time i vassalized china Thailand and Indonesia and tried to use them to help me win the tech race but they never wanted to trade me the techs I told them to research despite being as friendly as I could possibly be.

Another game I outright owned all of asia but could not manage my funds effiectively enough to run science 100% of the time and still got crushed by the USA before i could even stabliize my economy. I make tokyo a merchant city powerhouse and run merchants where ever I can but cant get my economy running right.

Any advice is appreciated here guys.

Ive got a decent game running right now but Im practically doing all the same things I always do and failed lol

 

[JDPElGrillo]

I had the same lategame issues with taking the tech lead from the US and big European civs, and I think there just needs to be some big war for them to get bogged down in in the late Industrial or early Global eras to break some of those really high-value trade routes and divert hammers into units. I'm still fairly new to the mod as well and I enjoy playing as China and Japan so I'm hoping to take another few stabs at this. All of my attempts on Monarch/Normal have struggled with UHV2 or UHV3, and I'm considering trying Epic speed next.

By the way, what does your opening look like for Japan? I'm a big fan of swapping into Republic/Citizenship/Manorialism/Merchant Trade, pumping workers from Kyoto at size 2, and founding 2 more cities in a tight triangle 2E of Kyoto and NE-NE of Kyoto on one of the Silks. The starting civics feel pretty lackluster given the available food (crucially, Rice paddy fields are not farms and thus do not get -1 food from Republic) and land, I find it helpful to finish UHV1 early with a Great Artist, and I don't mind the tight pattern because it's all core pop in anticipation of UHV2. Perhaps a 2-city approach is more efficient but I feel so bad with an unused starting Settler My first tech target is Feudalism for Himeji with Deification, which with a Theatre and Walls/Castle starts making steady progress towards UHV1. It's really a shame that it's nigh impossible to justify a 4th city to get a Buddhist cathedral for the additional +50% culture multiplier. One really important thing that's easy to overlook with Himeji is that you actually need to take the promotions before the game updates a unit's level. After finishing the wonder I swap to Monasticism/Conquest and start stuffing Himeji with cheap level 3s and then start teching toward Caravels to meet the world and enable the Modernization tech discounts.

EDIT: I was tinkering a bit with the opening on Monarch-Normal and I found time for 3 Spies, which were really impressively useful. Since they can move on roads and ignore open borders requirements, I was able to get one all the way to Portugal, which turned my beeline this game to Cartography into Education, Gunpowder, and Doctrine. It also allowed me to get the circumnavigation bonus with my first Caravel in 1535, which will be very useful further into the game.

Also, despite not generating any Great Artists at odds ranging from 20-33% out of 7 Great People so far (4 Scientists, 2 Engineers, and a Statesman), I'm on pace to finish UHV1 even if my next two Great People also aren't Artists at 42 and 49%. This is made possible by my early Himeji, which is adding 80 base culture per turn from units, mostly cheap level 3 Skirmishers from Barracks+Conquest. I also swapped back to Vassalage after finishing the discounted Citizenship buildings, so I'm paying very low unit expenses, and even with the penalty from Republic + Vassalage I have plenty of net stability from the other civics (Republic/Vassalage/Manorialism/Regulated Trade/Monasticism/Conquest). I tried first mining over the Tea hill and Silk hill at Nagano, and it worked nicely in that there's enough time and worker turns to turn them back into plantations before the happiness is needed, and an extra 1/3/1 tile is excellent when building all of the discounted Redistribution/Citizenship infrastructure.

I have two Settlers lined up for after UHV1, and I'm nearly finished with the Medieval techs and thinking of how to get into the world's good graces for Modernization. Fortunately there's a Buddhist bloc to trade with, but I was thinking of taking a page from the China UHV3 strategy book and settling Manila for an Islam spread, then converting to that and looking to foster trade with the Ottomans, Moors, and Abbasids.

EDIT: I was going to stop playing after completing UHV1, but it turns out I did get the Great Artist, and also triggered the Aztecs conquerors, which is certainly new for me, considering I haven't played as any of the European civs yet . It's kind of silly that I actually need to delay capturing any Aztec cities so that they don't screw up UHV1.

 

[Nyayr]

The sooner you can conquer the Korea (you allowed there) the better. Also you have a historical claim on several spots of los Angeles/Vancouver (be aware the lowest green spot is claimed by Mexico). Preventing with culture USA to settle those areas. You can build 1 spot left the first city on the rice to steal Korea's rice, I generally start with Korea and switch to Japan for a little head-start. New Spawned Japan starts with more troops that way.

With the Aztec, Incas and Mayas I generally fight them to they capitulate and return all their cities (unless I'm allowed there like England or spain is), then when you run Tributaries (good for trade %) you get for each vassal city a coin. Eventually they collapse after some centuries, Aztects usually first, but should give you easily 40+ turns of income. The Incas tend to last pretty long on average sometimes till the 1700's, but the Mayas do not...

 

[JDPElGrillo]

Aww, the latest git update nerfs the Republic opening (though not by much, only one actual paddy farm gets worked in my setup). Having Central Planning two techs earlier at Labor Unions is a tremendous buff though, it's worth swapping to as soon as possible from the underwhelming but necessary-for-stability Regulated Trade, gets a stability bonus and specialist synergy with Egalitarianism, helps smaller cities finish their Zaibatsu (Labor Unions might even be prioritized over Engines for Coal Plants, though that's a tough call, and Central Planning even boosts Coal Plant production so you're not delaying them by all that much), and having earlier access to food-neutral grass workshops and 3F grass watermills in Manchuria and later China makes building up the forces for UHV2 a lot more tenable.

 

[BaneFire]

Lol that git update seems like its targeted directly at this thread with some of those changes.

However I totally agree, the earlier fascist/communist civics are going to make Germany and Japan far more playable.

 

[JDPElGrillo]

Nyayr, I was curious about your claim that you could steal Seoul's rice tile by founding Kyouto 1W of spawn. However, when I tried this the tile kept all of its accumulated Korean culture and didn't flip to me. Are you starting as the Koreans and founding Seoul somewhere else?

Funnily enough, if I stick with the Republic opening, settling 1W of spawn on the rice is a bit more attractive because I'm only giving up a 4f tile instead of a 5f one, and it moves the incense hill (which I mine early and then plantation later like the tea and silks) into range. Kyoto no longer being able to share the pig and clams does hurt a bit, but I suppose after Korea is conquered and I swap out of Republic Kyoto can work the mainland rice and maybe make use of Caste System for a bit more food.

On a slightly related note, I realized that Manorialism's Worker bonus is directly implemented as -50% hammers needed, and not a +100% to production like some of the other civics or BTS Expansive's worker production bonus. This ends up being a really big difference because it means that foodhammers are also effectively doubled, when they otherwise wouldn't be. In light of this, I've slotted in a worker from Nagoya on t184 at size 2 once both seafood tiles are improved, but before the iron and copper mines are finished.

 

[Leoreth]

Lol that git update seems like its targeted directly at this thread with some of those changes.

That's not wrong. I never intended to make Republic more appealing to East Asian civs, in fact maybe I need to do more in that direction.

The Central Planning change had been planned for longer than that though.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

That's not wrong. I never intended to make Republic more appealing to East Asian civs, in fact maybe I need to do more in that direction.

Imo Republic's food effects need to go entirely, they are just too hard to balance. How about just +1 Free Specialist in your 5 Largest Cities?

The Central Planning change had been planned for longer than that though.

For how long? Five years?

 

[1SDANi]

Imo Republic's food effects need to go entirely, they are just too hard to balance. How about just +1 Free Specialist in your 5 Largest Cities?

This 100%. Republic's effect is useful for almost any nation with few cottage spots and a good number of food bonuses. -1 from Paddy Fields is just a tiny nerf all things considered. Paddy Fields already always give massive amounts of food, and -1 is easily offset by a single Specialist, and players are going to be running dozens of specialists by endgame.

I personally chose "+1 Specialist in your capital per Culture Level" in my modmod as it synergized well with the heavily culture based games of Italy, Rome, and Greece. (the latter two build a lot of wonders) It also has the pleasant effect of being something that naturally becomes less powerful as the nation expands.

Either of these effects would make it a Civic for civs that don't need the happiness bonus of Monarchy nor the production bonus of Despotism (and in my modmod also Elective), which in my playtesting seems to match up with the historical Republics.

 

[JDPElGrillo]

Agreed that the food bonus seems hard to balance at every stage of the game, and also in the opening turns being able to hire specialists with the free slots is a big deal since your Workers have so much to do and can just focus on improving food resources. Seafood with a starting workboat, even more so.

 

[Nyayr]

With Republic technically if you tolerate the -5 in later ages (I never take it beyond classic/early middle ages cause I prefer balance to be high), you can have an unlimited growth of cities when you got the Engineer or Artist +1 food wonder.

The artist +1 food bonus means under a republic an artist gives +2 food, a wonder you can get relatively early in the late classic age.

 

[GuitarDemon]

Never thought about switching to republic/citzenship during my game could have saved me a lot of turns if I did. I just rushed himeji castle and two great artist and was done with the UHV by 1400ad then settled a city on Japan gold and conquered Korea straight away.

I thought about getting the Aztec Incan conquerors but wanted a challenging game so I let the euro civs have them.


This game I’m playing right now I have defense pacts with Canada and México and Britain. Made them go to war with America hoping that would slow them down but triggering a massive world war got me to -18 diplomacy and I collapse in 2-3 turns no matter what I do

I never collapsed so many times in a game before. Even collapse during the middle of a golden age.

I found out the major drag on my economy is inflation -100 or more gold lost to inflation so any way to correct this?

Either way in this game I’m sure America already has 3 or 4 global age techs before I’m even out of the Industrial Age so not looking good for that last uhv again. All I need is Indonesia and the phillipines for the second uhv and i had plenty of time to grab them if I didn’t keep collapsing over and over again. I’m shaky before starting war with America

 

[JDPElGrillo]

I've been waiting for this screenshot ever since the change to Central Planning at Labour Unions. Republic/Constitution/Egalitarianism/Central Planning/Tolerance/Nationhood with Porcelain Tower and Jetavanaramaya. 41h of base production without a single hammer tile being worked. As silly and fun as this will be, it probably shouldn't be allowed to happen. I'm accepting the -5 stability penalty from Republic being outdated in the Industrial Era and easily managing stability otherwise from other civic combinations and vassals.

 

[GuitarDemon]

How did you get jetavanaramya? Can’t find it anywhere lol

Had an epic game but lost the 3rd uhv in 1930 by England before I could even get to one global tech. Kept playing and a world war started and the US and England both collapsed by 1940

If only I can get them to collapse earlier I might have a chance?

Japan really gets going good after all my cities are Powered. The only vassal that doesn’t collapse right away is the Thais and I could steal a couple techs from them I told them to research but took me too long to get my cities fully built. Perhaps I need to use whipping more effectively

Also I noticed trades from war don’t go towards modernization anymore in this newest version?