Need to prove to my mom that Evolution is real

Elrohir said:
My position hasn't changed: I want to know why exactly GoldEagle feels the "need" to "prove" to his mother that "Evolution is real". Why can't they both just go about their business as they see fit; why should close family members argue over something that truly doesn't have a serious impact on their lives? Come on: This isn't something that need come up in everyday conversation, and it doesn't matter nearly as much as everyone pretends it does - why not just let it go, and let everyone believe what they wish?
The same reason why the Kansas Board of Education didn't seem to want to give the subject up. Neither side is going to budge.

Elrohir said:
What genuinely puzzoles me people, especially evolutionists, being so intractable about this issue. So many of you are so sure that you're right, that you seem to spend a whole lt of time arguing about it - if you're right, and you know it, why bother? Richard Dawkins especially comes to mind here. Methinks the evolutionists doth protest too much.

Hey, it's like Christians who know they're right but don't keep quiet about it, instead they go out and preach. Can you se the parallels? It's not a good thing to let ignorance about a subject fester until it substantiates itself as something much worse. Methinks the creationists doth spread hypocrisy too much.
 
Elrohir said:
What genuinely puzzles me people, especially evolutionists, being so intractable about this issue. So many of you are so sure that you're right, that you seem to spend a whole lot of time arguing about it - if you're right, and you know it, why bother? Richard Dawkins especially comes to mind here. Methinks the evolutionists doth protest too much.
I don't see how this is a puzzle. The purpose of arguing with someone is not to convince yourself, it's to convince the person you're arguing with. Since the people being argued with believe evolution to be false, there is no puzzle.
 
Masquerouge said:
If a member of my family believed in Creationism, I would consider it my duty to not let him/her err any longer. But that's because we highly value rationalism and science in my family (some of us are also religious, mind you, and very so).
Of course you want to convince people that your position is right, and theirs is wrong, if you believe it is wrong - but is it worth such arguing and bickering?

If, for example, a close family member likes rap music, and you can't stand it, would you try and convince him that the music of, say, Bach is much better? (If you thought this, this is just an example) Of course you would - but you wouldn't make a big deal out of it, or let it be such a divisive issue. What I don't understand is why the idea of evolution (Speaking, of course, of macroevolution) is such a divisive issue. Why isn't there anyone but myself who is just sick of all the bickering? You think you know what's true here - great, so do I. So why do you insist upon spending so much time arguing over it?

If you really and truly believe that you are right, and you've each heard the arguments that the other person has to say, why not just let it go? No one is really going to change their mind on this issue, and arguing just because you can, when you know it won't accomplish anything is just plain stupid.

Blackheart said:
Hey, it's like Christians who know they're right but don't keep quiet about it, instead they go out and preach. Can you se the parallels? It's not a good thing to let ignorance about a subject fester until it substantiates itself as something much worse. Methinks the creationists doth spread hypocrisy too much.
When a Christian preaches to an unbeliever, he believes that it is only through the unbeliever listening and accepting the Gospel that his soul can be saved. I see the parallels, yes - but I also see a difference between trying, in your opinion, to save someone's soul, and trying to convince them of the validity of a scientific theory.

Look: If this were any other theory, such as, say, String theory, would any of you be so adamant in your defense of it? (Or arguing against it, if you don't think that String Theory is a correct theory) If you're right, and there is no actual, scientific difference between Evolutionary theory, and String theory, why would you argue about one more than the other?
 
to OP.

tell her to wait for a million years. its the quicker option compared to waiting for any proof on creationlism
 
The Short Proof of Evolution
by
Ian Johnston
Malaspina University-College
Nanaimo, BC

[This document is in the public domain and may be used, in whole or in part, without charge and without permission, by anyone, provided the source is acknowledged. Last revised in March 2005]



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We live, we are constantly told, in a scientific age. We look to science to help us achieve the good life, to solve our problems (especially our medical aches and pains), and to tell us about the world. A great deal of our education system, particularly the post-secondary curriculum, is organized as science or social science. And yet, curiously enough, there is one major scientific truth which vast numbers of people refuse to accept (by some news accounts a majority of people in North America)--the fact of evolution. Yet it is as plain as plain can be that the scientific truth of evolution is so overwhelmingly established, that it is virtually impossible to refute within the bounds of reason. No major scientific truth, in fact, is easier to present, explain, and defend.

Before demonstrating this claim, let me make it clear what I mean by evolution, since there often is some confusion about the term. By evolution I mean, very simply, the development of animal and plant species out of other species not at all like them, for example, the process by which, say, a species of fish gets transformed (or evolves) through various stages into a cow, a kangaroo, or an eagle. This definition, it should be noted, makes no claims about how the process might occur, and thus it certainly does not equate the concept of evolution with Darwinian Natural Selection, as so many people seem to do. It simply defines the term by its effects (not by how those effects are produced, which could well be the subject of another argument).

The first step in demonstrating the truth of evolution is to make the claim that all living creatures must have a living parent. This point has been overwhelmingly established in the past century and a half, ever since the French scientist Louis Pasteur demonstrated how fermentation took place and thus laid to rest centuries of stories about beetles arising spontaneously out of dung or gut worms being miraculously produced from non-living material. There is absolutely no evidence for this ancient belief. Living creatures must come from other living creatures. It does no damage to this point to claim that life must have had some origin way back in time, perhaps in a chemical reaction of inorganic materials (in some primordial soup) or in some invasion from outer space. That may well be true. But what is clear is that any such origin for living things or living material must result in a very simple organism. There is no evidence whatsoever (except in science fiction like Frankenstein) that inorganic chemical processes can produce complex, multi-cellular living creatures (the recent experiments cloning sheep, of course, are based on living tissue from other sheep).

The second important point in the case for evolution is that some living creatures are very different from some others. This, I take it, is self-evident. Let me cite a common example: many animals have what we call an internal skeletal structure featuring a backbone and skull. We call these animals vertebrates. Most animals do not have these features (we call them invertebrates). The distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates is something no one who cares to look at samples of both can reasonably deny, and, so far as I am aware, no one hostile to evolution has ever denied a fact so apparent to anyone who observes the world for a few moments.

The final point in the case for evolution is this: simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones (invertebrate animals, for example, were around for a very long time before there were any vertebrates). Here again, the evidence from fossils is overwhelming. In the deepest rock layers, there are no signs of life. The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). And no human fossils have ever been found except in the most superficial layers of the earth (e.g., battlefields, graveyards, flood deposits, and so on). In all the countless geological excavations and inspections (for example, of the Grand Canyon), no one has ever come up with a genuine fossil remnant which goes against this general principle (and it would only take one genuine find to overturn this principle).

Well, if we put these three points together, the rational case for evolution is air tight. If all living creatures must have a living parent, if living creatures are different, and if simpler forms were around before the more complex forms, then the more complex forms must have come from the simpler forms (e.g., vertebrates from invertebrates). There is simply no other way of dealing reasonably with the evidence we have. Of course, one might deny (as some do) that the layers of the earth represent a succession of very lengthy epochs and claim, for example, that the Grand Canyon was created in a matter of days, but this surely violates scientific observation and all known scientific processes as much as does the claim that, say, vertebrates just, well, appeared one day out of a spontaneous combination of chemicals.

To make the claim for the scientific truth of evolution in this way is to assert nothing about how it might occur. Darwin provides one answer (through natural selection), but others have been suggested, too (including some which see a divine agency at work in the transforming process). The above argument is intended, however, to demonstrate that the general principle of evolution is, given the scientific evidence, logically unassailable and that, thus, the concept is a law of nature as truly established as is, say, gravitation. That scientific certainty makes the widespread rejection of evolution in our modern age something of a puzzle (but that's a subject for another essay). In a modern liberal democracy, of course, one is perfectly free to reject that conclusion, but one is not legitimately able to claim that such a rejection is a reasonable scientific stance.
 
I am STILL waiting for that elusive definition of 'kind' - if it came, and if it held up to scruntity, theoretically, Dionysios, your article could be wrong.


What a pity the religionists can't come up with a proper definition of their very own favorite words :(
 
Dionysius said:
The Short Proof of Evolution


The first step in demonstrating the truth of evolution is to make the claim that all living creatures must have a living parent. This point has been overwhelmingly established in the past century and a half, ever since the French scientist Louis Pasteur demonstrated how fermentation took place and thus laid to rest centuries of stories about beetles arising spontaneously out of dung or gut worms being miraculously produced from non-living material. There is absolutely no evidence for this ancient belief. Living creatures must come from other living creatures. It does no damage to this point to claim that life must have had some origin way back in time, perhaps in a chemical reaction of inorganic materials (in some primordial soup) or in some invasion from outer space. That may well be true. But what is clear is that any such origin for living things or living material must result in a very simple organism. There is no evidence whatsoever (except in science fiction like Frankenstein) that inorganic chemical processes can produce complex, multi-cellular living creatures (the recent experiments cloning sheep, of course, are based on living tissue from other sheep).
There isn't no evidence whatsoever that a very simple organism was the origins for living things (cell) either but it doesn't stop this guy from making the claim. It only clear if you automaticly assume "Nature" is it's own creator. Almost all ancient gods were "nature" gods. Again this come back to the "Which came first? chicken or the egg" / "protein or DNA(RNA)" paradox.
The second important point in the case for evolution is that some living creatures are very different from some others. This, I take it, is self-evident. Let me cite a common example: many animals have what we call an internal skeletal structure featuring a backbone and skull. We call these animals vertebrates. Most animals do not have these features (we call them invertebrates). The distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates is something no one who cares to look at samples of both can reasonably deny, and, so far as I am aware, no one hostile to evolution has ever denied a fact so apparent to anyone who observes the world for a few moments.
Even if you dismiss the origin of life from evolution there are just as big of jumps in origins evolution (Darwinism) have to make. You got origins of sex, eukaryotes, multicellular, body plans, consciousness to deal with.
The final point in the case for evolution is this: simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones (invertebrate animals, for example, were around for a very long time before there were any vertebrates). Here again, the evidence from fossils is overwhelming. In the deepest rock layers, there are no signs of life. The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). And no human fossils have ever been found except in the most superficial layers of the earth (e.g., battlefields, graveyards, flood deposits, and so on). In all the countless geological excavations and inspections (for example, of the Grand Canyon), no one has ever come up with a genuine fossil remnant which goes against this general principle (and it would only take one genuine find to overturn this principle).
As some scientists have pointed out there is no simple life; One reason ID movenment uses "flagellum" often it's age in the fossil record. The idea life was simple which turn into more complex life made a lot of sense back in Darwin's day since they saw a cell as something very simple. So Darwin have evidence the a simple cell can turn into something as complex as a human, elephant, bird, etc. But today we know the cell if far from being simple.

This argument may have worked in Darwin's day but with the knowledge we have now makes this argument lame.
 
Smidlee: can I ask YOU about the 'kind' thing? There must be a creationist here willing to give a proper definition....
 
carlosMM said:
Smidlee: can I ask YOU about the 'kind' thing? There must be a creationist here willing to give a proper definition....
"Kind" is what you should be toward a good loving mother even though she does get on your nerves every now and then.:)
 
So there we are: instead of trying to explain the creationist position, you make jokes. Is that all there is? a big joke?



It's a lame one.
 
Smidlee said:
As some scientists have pointed out there is no simple life; One reason ID movenment uses "flagellum" often it's age in the fossil record. The idea life was simple which turn into more complex life made a lot of sense back in Darwin's day since they saw a cell as something very simple. So Darwin have evidence the a simple cell can turn into something as complex as a human, elephant, bird, etc. But today we know the cell if far from being simple.

This argument may have worked in Darwin's day but with the knowledge we have now makes this argument lame.
Do you understand the flagellum argument? I am really interested to hear what it is about.

The thing about the simple life is that it would today be out competed by more complex life. There are some very simple organisms in extreme environments where there is less competion.
 
The Formation of Life
"Alexander Oparin proposed one of the first hypotheses describing how life could have formed from inorganic molecules. Free oxygen, released into the atmosphere by photosynthetic organisms today, would have been absent in the early atmosphere. Oparin hypothesized that energy from lightning, heat or ultra violet radiation, chemically joined molecules of the atmospheric gases to create simple, carbon-based organic molecules. Rain carried the organic molecules into the seas which became a thick "primordial soup". Within the soup, tiny bubbles of lipid material may have surrounded collections of organic molecules. Some of the droplets eventually may have been able to incorporate new matter from the surrounding seas (grow), and chemically release the energy stored in molecules (metabolize). When a persistent "bubble" collected enough of the right material to grow large enough to divide and pass on to the daughter cells the information they needed to do the same thing (heredity), life had begun.

Ancient rocks from Australia, about 3.5 billion years old contain fossils of the earliest record of living cells. The cells are very simple in structure. They were prokaryotes meaning they had no nucleus and no membrane bound organelles. They were similar to modern day bacteria. Probably the best look at what those first living organisms were like presented itself about 20 years ago with the discovery of an entirely new form of life in the deep sea thermal vents. At depths where no sunlight could reach to allow photosynthesis, bacteria were discovered that could use the chemical energy in superheated plumes of hydrogen sulfide to metabolize and grow. Other organisms such as huge tube worms and blind crabs lived off of the bacteria the way most organisms depend on plants. Methane producing bacteria that are found in hot springs and must live without oxygen (anaerobes) also show similarities to these earliest forms of life.

The Joides Resolution is a research ship whose mission is to drill into and study the sea floor to learn more about the history of the Earth. Some students at Mira Mesa High School recently had the opportunity to tour this ship.

Another simple prokaryotic organism is cyanobacteria. Though lacking membrane bound organelles, these cells have the ability to carry on photosynthesis. One theory of the origin of eukaryotic cells - those with a true nucleus and other organelles - is that the mitochondria (that release energy from food) and chloroplasts (which makes food through photosynthesis) were at one time, free living prokaryotic organisms. The presence in both of tiny amounts of DNA - genes - supports this idea. The development of eukaryotic cells and then more complex multicellular organisms took another two billion years after the first cells were thought to have formed."

out of curiosity, smidlee, have YOU anything by way of facts to contribute?
 
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