Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Hmm, we'll increase our offer to 5 eco. points delivered over two turns, in light of that previous statement.
NES2 V - The Great Game.
- Thread starter das
- Start date
- Status
Stormbringer
The Brick and The Rose
OOC: Iggy, honestly I am very surprised Thy and Dis have actually been reseptive to my treaty, and I suggest you take it since I cannot possible imagine a better outcome for you than that.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
This is our proposition. We will pay 5 eco. points over two turns for this. If the Ottoman Empire finds the rest of Iraq an unworthy possession, it reserves the right to sell the province to Persia, or do whatever it likes with it. All other portions of the Federate treaty, including giving Shiites in Ottoman Iraq equal political rights with Sunnis, will remain in effect.
The only real difference here is that the borders are more stable, and we pay you more money.
Stormbringer
The Brick and The Rose
As Ive said, if the ottomans want to sell the land to you for 5 eco thats your buisniness but if they want to accept the federate treaty and not sell the land thats their choice and you will have to live with it. I also think that giving Persia parts of the Tigris valley will only lead to a splitting of communities and make the borders less stable.
OOC: Thayli, just accept the damn treaty. I hope you do realize, that you cannot win this war, this is as far as you can get. Ottomans army is twice as big as your, and they make 2 times more money than you. If you prolong this war, you will only lose. So just accept the stormy's proposal.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Dalnorossia agrees with the broad sweep of the Federate treaty, especially its provisions for the traditions of native peoples, but has a number of points it wishes to discuss, additionally we will not ratify it till we have heard the Ottomans 'Territorial' changes.
We feel that our original territorial offer, with all the guarntees and pledges and payments that went with it would have been advantagous to the regions stability and very advantagous to the Ottoman Throne. But if that has been rejected, then no matter...
Points of contention
1) Could we have a indication of where these 'regions of autonomy' for the armenians and georgians would fall? We desire for them to be treated fairly, not ghettoised for their part in this war.
2) We would desire sovereignty over the black sea port (the city itself, not the surroundings) as the 'facilitation' of trade would be much easier if we had a place for our merchents to build commerial vessels and store goods. It would also be a place for us to meet with the local cossack and other slavic populations to make sure the ottomans are respecting their 'traditional religion and cultural traditions'
3)This is not so much a point of contention as it is a a note that the finger of Ottoman land that extends between Muscovy and Dalnorossia is likely to be of great cost to them to secure and man, thus we propose the arrangement below, where the merest sliver of Ottoman territory is transfered (at a price we are willing to discuss, please remember we are seldom miserly in this regard) to remove this problem and allow Dalnorossia access to the Don on her own lands...
We feel that our original territorial offer, with all the guarntees and pledges and payments that went with it would have been advantagous to the regions stability and very advantagous to the Ottoman Throne. But if that has been rejected, then no matter...
Points of contention
1) Could we have a indication of where these 'regions of autonomy' for the armenians and georgians would fall? We desire for them to be treated fairly, not ghettoised for their part in this war.
2) We would desire sovereignty over the black sea port (the city itself, not the surroundings) as the 'facilitation' of trade would be much easier if we had a place for our merchents to build commerial vessels and store goods. It would also be a place for us to meet with the local cossack and other slavic populations to make sure the ottomans are respecting their 'traditional religion and cultural traditions'
3)This is not so much a point of contention as it is a a note that the finger of Ottoman land that extends between Muscovy and Dalnorossia is likely to be of great cost to them to secure and man, thus we propose the arrangement below, where the merest sliver of Ottoman territory is transfered (at a price we are willing to discuss, please remember we are seldom miserly in this regard) to remove this problem and allow Dalnorossia access to the Don on her own lands...
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
OCC:
@Quick note Stormbringer, if the weird blob in the north of the propsed persian borders is following the OTL modern border of Azerbaijan - aren't the Azeri Shi'a muslims? Indeed is this not where the Safavid Dynasty arose?
@Thlayli; why are you so ready to give up this historic land of your dynasty and religous sect to claim the lands in mesopotamia where there are (probably due to the stronger ottomans than the OTL) far less Shi'a adherants.
@Quick note Stormbringer, if the weird blob in the north of the propsed persian borders is following the OTL modern border of Azerbaijan - aren't the Azeri Shi'a muslims? Indeed is this not where the Safavid Dynasty arose?
@Thlayli; why are you so ready to give up this historic land of your dynasty and religous sect to claim the lands in mesopotamia where there are (probably due to the stronger ottomans than the OTL) far less Shi'a adherants.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Interesting point. This is true, the Azerbadjani lands have a very strong bond to the Safavid throne. Regarding the lands in Southern Iraq, they have the highest concentration of Shi'ite Muslims in all the Ottoman provinces.
EDIT: According to das, the hatred that the Shiite Muslims in Iraq have for the Ottoman Empire is of massive proportions, perhaps due to being forbidden even to perdorm the hajj, up until a few years ago.
We are willing to give up the al-Hasa province, in return for the Azerbadjani lands. Ottoman reoccupation of lands east of the Tigris is fairly unacceptable.
In regards to the equal treatment of minorities under the Ottoman throne, we wait for an Imperial proclamation that all Shi'ites (and Arabs, and Egyptians, and Slavs for that matter) have equal political rights with the Turks.
We will be satisfied by nothing less.
Regarding the comparative strength of both militaries: Ottomans may have more troops, but the Persians have higher military leadership, civilian leadership, culture, education, and confidence.
Storm, The FK border division seems to be drawn around the modern borders of Iran. I'm not sure if das can settle this for us, but I believe that many more eastern lands are considered Persian.
EDIT: According to das, the hatred that the Shiite Muslims in Iraq have for the Ottoman Empire is of massive proportions, perhaps due to being forbidden even to perdorm the hajj, up until a few years ago.
We are willing to give up the al-Hasa province, in return for the Azerbadjani lands. Ottoman reoccupation of lands east of the Tigris is fairly unacceptable.
In regards to the equal treatment of minorities under the Ottoman throne, we wait for an Imperial proclamation that all Shi'ites (and Arabs, and Egyptians, and Slavs for that matter) have equal political rights with the Turks.
We will be satisfied by nothing less.
Regarding the comparative strength of both militaries: Ottomans may have more troops, but the Persians have higher military leadership, civilian leadership, culture, education, and confidence.
Storm, The FK border division seems to be drawn around the modern borders of Iran. I'm not sure if das can settle this for us, but I believe that many more eastern lands are considered Persian.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Perhaps this is an agreeable compromise? The borders are much more stable, and the Tigris provides a natural barrier to both our nations. The province of al-Hasa will remain under Ottoman suzerainty, in return for ceding to Safavid Persia it's ancestral Azerbaijani (sp?) lands. We are willing to pay 5 eco points for this transfer of territory, over 2 turns.
Also, the Federated Kingdoms can understand how we would like Basra out of the range of Ottoman cannons, were ever a conflict to occur.
Also, the Federated Kingdoms can understand how we would like Basra out of the range of Ottoman cannons, were ever a conflict to occur.
2 eco points and your leadership is even.Thlayli said:
couple eco points on those too and it's even.
Btw it's not very wise to so greatly overestimate yourself while you underestimate the enemy. Face it, you are doomed, even if you would fight against ottomans alone.
das
Regeneration In Process
OOC:
Actually, what Thlayli is proposing here resembles most closely the borders of the Safavid Persia at its greatest extent.
There are also the Baluchis, although I guess they aren't too major...
The land in IRAN. Iraq was seized by Turks as in OTL, and recaptured by Safavids as in OTL, and then lost again - as in OTL. The divergences came soon after, really.
IC:
Andorra demands reparations (2 eco. points).
Actually, what Thlayli is proposing here resembles most closely the borders of the Safavid Persia at its greatest extent.
There are also the Baluchis, although I guess they aren't too major...
The land in IRAN. Iraq was seized by Turks as in OTL, and recaptured by Safavids as in OTL, and then lost again - as in OTL. The divergences came soon after, really.
It arose in PERSIAN Aizerbadjan.
IC:
Andorra demands reparations (2 eco. points).
Stormbringer
The Brick and The Rose
The Ottomans have accepted the Treaty of Constantinopol, now it is up to the Persians and the Dalnorossians to accept it or provide the Ottomans with an alternative that the Ottomans will accept. If not then the FK will join the Ottomans in enforcing the treaty.
The regions of autonomy would be, as stated in the treaty, regions where Georgians and Armenians form a majority.
I do not find the other two arguments of Dalnorossia to be valid, there is no need for their sovereignty of a city deep within Ottoman borders, and the land they want can be given up by the Ottomans if they so chose, but they will not be required to give the land up.
I have many times stated my dislike of the fact that Persian proposal divides the Tigris river valley into two, and similarly I will not enforce it. We have provided for the rights of the Shiites in the treaty, and if they are violated then the Ottomans will be, in the future, forced to give up Shiite lands. If the Ottomans chose to do so now in return for money or other reparations that is their choice, but they will not be forced to do so.
The regions of autonomy would be, as stated in the treaty, regions where Georgians and Armenians form a majority.
I do not find the other two arguments of Dalnorossia to be valid, there is no need for their sovereignty of a city deep within Ottoman borders, and the land they want can be given up by the Ottomans if they so chose, but they will not be required to give the land up.
I have many times stated my dislike of the fact that Persian proposal divides the Tigris river valley into two, and similarly I will not enforce it. We have provided for the rights of the Shiites in the treaty, and if they are violated then the Ottomans will be, in the future, forced to give up Shiite lands. If the Ottomans chose to do so now in return for money or other reparations that is their choice, but they will not be forced to do so.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Hmm, really? You're technically correct, true. Safavid Persia at it's greatest extent included...well, judge the historical borders for yourself.
Nonetheless, we agree to the Treaty of Constantinople, on the condition that the equality of all minorities in the Ottoman Empire is enforced by an imperial proclamation. (In orders.) We also would like to negotiate with the Ottoman Empire as to cession of Azerbaijan.
Also, we agree to reparations with Andorra, on the condition of a MPP.
Nonetheless, we agree to the Treaty of Constantinople, on the condition that the equality of all minorities in the Ottoman Empire is enforced by an imperial proclamation. (In orders.) We also would like to negotiate with the Ottoman Empire as to cession of Azerbaijan.
Also, we agree to reparations with Andorra, on the condition of a MPP.
Stormbringer
The Brick and The Rose
OOC: Das, I PMed you something very important.
das
Regeneration In Process
Agreed. May our two great nations prosper and crush all our foes!
Stormbringer
The Brick and The Rose
Wonderful, now two nations have agreed to the treaty, waiting only Dalnorossia
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Sorry das, I just noticed that my Military Leadership should be Brilliant+1.
- Status
