NES2 VI - Last Semblance of Order.

[Thlayli]

No. And you aren't the only person who knows that.

Do you always have to ruin the surprise, das?

 

[das]

What surprise? Even with the Greek war at end, there is also Abyssinia (and Sennar) and the Caucasus. That's provided silver doesn't start a new war - and knowing him, well...

 

[Insane_Panda]

Ah, so another unrealistic betrayal, done by NESers who do not understand a shred of what is realistic, or what is good for their nation, and simply chose their actions in order to bring down one nation.

I'm getting quite fed up, really.

 

[Stormbringer]

Well, I must say that if Silver does not send orders at all then the Russian-German alliance will lose the war this turn, so I would very highly encourage das to wait for silver in the spirit of not punishing stalin and me for silver's failure to send orders.

 

[stalin006]

Ah, so another unrealistic betrayal, done by NESers who do not understand a shred of what is realistic, or what is good for their nation, and simply chose their actions in order to bring down one nation.

I'm getting quite fed up, really.

well i hope u never saw an allience with germany as realistic

 

[Thlayli]

Ah, so another unrealistic betrayal, done by NESers who do not understand a shred of what is realistic, or what is good for their nation, and simply chose their actions in order to bring down one nation.

I'm getting quite fed up, really.

Although (not to insult, Panda) in terms of territory, the Mughals do stand to gain territorially from a French defeat. Technically. Sorta.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Das has not waited for others before (no matter their importance, on some occasions), so why should he make such an exception now?

 

[Cuivienen]

Although (not to insult, Panda) in terms of territory, the Mughals do stand to gain territorially from a French defeat. Technically. Sorta.

More importantly, a leader bent on uniting all of Islam would rather have to attack France, or else coerce France into surrendering a large chunk of its territory.

 

[Thlayli]

Namely North Africa, Sinai, Indonesia, etc.

Of course, ironically I've gone from being a Russian ally to a French ally if this betrayal plays out.

 

[North King]

Das has not waited for others before (no matter their importance, on some occasions), so why should he make such an exception now?

Actually, I concur, having been screwed over due to reasons beyond my control as the FK early NES 2 V.

Kill the bastards and be done with it, das.

 

[North King]

Das has allowed late orders to come in from Silver and many others over the last few updates. Some of those were not even cruitial orders, like this set is. As a result, given the precedent and the importance of the orders I believe that at the very least Das should wait for Silver to tell him the decision on the war. After that, if Das wants to get back to having a strict deadline with no late orders, he should begin to enforce it, but picking this particular set of orders to begin enforcing the strict deadline will completely upset the game balance and change the outcome of the World War, something I think should be decided by the way we play the game, not the decision of the mod.

One can argue that the absence of orders is a way to play the game (badly). Admittedly, silver has good reasons to have not sent his orders (I wouldn't send them if my dog was dying on me, either). But he might... no, should have sent them earlier.

Right now it looks like a third of the update is not being written for lack of his orders.

 

[Insane_Panda]

And those orders have only been a few hours late, at most, not a whole day. Furthermore, silver's supposed reasoning (supposed as he has not even said this himself) for a war against France is pointless. Engage yourself against the world's superpower, a nation you were previously allies with, in order to gain yourself some extra land in suprise? It's ridiculous oppurtunism, with no other real reason besides the desire of some for an easy victory, and the desire of others to remove themselves out of their terrible condition through the player's oppurtunistic attack against a former ally.

Furthermore, if Silver can send orders now, orders long past the clearly established deadline and the information revealed after the deadline (orders which he probably hasn't even written), than I too, should be allowed to send orders in order to react against his betrayal, as he should not be able to decide what he wants to do now, after the deadline has passed.

 

[Symphony D.]

OOC: Actually, Germany's betrayal of France, given its former existence as Krakow and defeat by Russia, and the fact there are barely any freaking Teutons west of the Rhine, made Germany allying with Russia really silly. That's a classic case of Metagaming. You did it because it made sense to you as a player to not allow Panda to win. In context of your nation, it makes no sense at all, because you gain nothing or lose the chance to gain something. It is not adherent to game theory or rationality at all within the game's context.

In short, it's the same as playing your country OOC, which is stupid. Same deal with Dar Al Islam. Everyone is harping on having to attack France to free Muslims. France has, what, North Africa? Ooh hoo, so terribly useful compared to say, Sri Lanka, the Indian Ocean, The Pivot of History™, etc.

Dar Al Islam, like Germany before it, has infinitely more to gain from assisting France. It is only in an OOC Metagaming perspective that it makes any sense at all for them to randomly up and betray France, and that is precisely the kind of behavior that often ruins the mood of games and deserves asteroid strikes in retribution. But then again, as staznesVIII is so handily proving at this very moment, NESers are anything but logical, consistent, or rational.

Furthermore, Silver's been late like the past three updates. Third strike, you're out. No instructions, no mercy. Mod-run NPC. The weakest links in a vast global conspiracy are always other people.

 

[Cuivienen]

Dar Al Islam, like Germany before it, has infinitely more to gain from assisting France. It is only in an OOC Metagaming perspective that it makes any sense at all for them to randomly up and betray France, and that is precisely the kind of behavior that often ruins the mood of games and deserves asteroid strikes in retribution. But then again, as staznesVIII is so handily proving at this very moment, NESers are anything but logical, consistent, or rational.

Can you point out anything that Dar al-Islam stands to gain from Russia? There is virtually no Muslim population in the parts of Russia Dar al-Islam does not currently occupy. By comparison, France controls all of north Africa, the Suez Canal, Indonesia and other Muslim majority regions that are "rightfully" within Dar al-Islam.


Frankly, I see this as a shameless attempt by IP and his allies to win the war by default rather than allowing it to continue in a competitive way. I see no reason why one instance of late orders is a serious problem for the NES, and I think das should understand that not everyone is always available to turn in orders immediately. Oftentimes, when preparing for a war, my orders take many days to complete, and sudden upheavals in my schedule may make me late in turning in orders. I see no need to punish someone for difficulties beyond their control, especially if doing so causes extreme damage to the balance of power in the NES.

 

[Symphony D.]

OOC: I... just did? Might I also note that Dar Al Islam is going to find itself grossly overextended and stretching from the Atlas Mountains to Java really wouldn't help that situation? The Indian Ocean, alone, is far more valuable than North Africa ever will be. The oil fields of the Caucuses and the resources of the Aral Sea (though this knowledge is somewhat metagaming too) even more so. Muslims extend deep into these regions as well, given their presence in, say, western China quite aways back, so they are not "devoid" of Muslims by any stretch. Story made short: bigger fish to fry, more to gain, more time to build up.

And nice, now the NES is probably dead. My way or the highway, a little? I've sent orders within 24 hours of a deadline, with extenuating circumstances before, and had them totally ignored. As Finmaster once said to me when I whined in ITNES: if you can't make it by the deadline, tough. It's the mod's call. Ultimately, whatever das decides goes, but I stand by my opinion.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Frankly, I see this as a shameless attempt by IP and his allies to win the war by default rather than allowing it to continue in a competitive way. I see no reason why one instance of late orders is a serious problem for the NES, and I think das should understand that not everyone is always available to turn in orders immediately. Oftentimes, when preparing for a war, my orders take many days to complete, and sudden upheavals in my schedule may make me late in turning in orders. I see no need to punish someone for difficulties beyond their control, especially if doing so causes extreme damage to the balance of power in the NES.

A shameless attempt by me? If anything, it is a shameless attempt by the other side to get a late order set (an order set which shall make or break their fate) accepted, which shouldn't even be accepted in the first place. What conveniences yours (or anyone elses) schedule shouldn't matter. There are deadlines which must be met, and Silver, (for the third time) has failed to meet these deadlines, and should be forced to pay the consequences for it as we all have before in das' NESes, in which there is very little flexibility of the deadline and update schedule.

 

[Cuivienen]

The Indian Ocean, alone, is far more valuable than North Africa ever will be.

And attacking Russia helps Dar al-Islam acquire the Indian Ocean? Portugal is not formally allied with Russia as far as I know.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Furthermore, I have no problem with fighting this war - however, it is the unrealistic oppurtunism of players such as stalin and silver which really irks me, and which does little to improve the game, and instead simply makes it a contest of players, rather than a contest of nations, which a NES should be.

 

[das]

Btw, did I miss anything or what happened with Wubba360? I mean, he's clearly still around, but is he still playing Abyssinia or did he quit?

 

[North King]

I would join as Russia for the sake of the game's continuation, but I will not out of respect to Panda.

Frankly, it's quite low to quit a NES when you're a key player because things didn't go your way--it has a tendency to kill the NES, and thus it gives the impression of the quitter being out to end the NES because he/she did not get his/her way.