Never Before Seen Civs - Elimination Game
- Thread starter The Kingmaker
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Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 12
Gauls/Britons 10 (9 + 1) Nope, Nope, Nope, Gotta have the Gauls: too important to the development of culture and technology in early Iron Age Europe.
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 19
Maori/Other Polynesians 5 (8 - 3) Still don't believe Firaxis can do them justice.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 12
Gauls/Britons 10 (9 + 1) Nope, Nope, Nope, Gotta have the Gauls: too important to the development of culture and technology in early Iron Age Europe.
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 19
Maori/Other Polynesians 5 (8 - 3) Still don't believe Firaxis can do them justice.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 12
Gauls/Britons 10 - 3 = 7 (Simply not a priority. Also, they are European, and we have plenty of European civs already, not just in Earth maps either)
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 19
Maori/Other Polynesians 5 + 1 = 6 (I don't think Firaxis can do any civ justice due to game restraints, lack of animated backgrounds, limited leader lines, etc. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't try for the Maori, let alone for the Maori vis a vis other civs)
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 12
Gauls/Britons 10 - 3 = 7 (Simply not a priority. Also, they are European, and we have plenty of European civs already, not just in Earth maps either)
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 19
Maori/Other Polynesians 5 + 1 = 6 (I don't think Firaxis can do any civ justice due to game restraints, lack of animated backgrounds, limited leader lines, etc. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't try for the Maori, let alone for the Maori vis a vis other civs)
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue, Hlai and Langkasuka
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA (12+1)=13 I'll defend them to the very end...
Gauls/Britons 7
Georgians (14-3)=11 Interesting language, but I only want them in the game because of Tamar. I have to nitpick now.
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 19
Maori/Other Polynesians 6
To Zaarin, kinda harsh about the Taino...
. They had chiefdoms you know. I think "Stone Age" hunter-gatherers shouldn't be considered inferior to farming peoples. It's a different way of life. Plus, I would like to see Anacaona in the game.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA (12+1)=13 I'll defend them to the very end...
Gauls/Britons 7
Georgians (14-3)=11 Interesting language, but I only want them in the game because of Tamar. I have to nitpick now.
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 19
Maori/Other Polynesians 6
To Zaarin, kinda harsh about the Taino...
. They had chiefdoms you know. I think "Stone Age" hunter-gatherers shouldn't be considered inferior to farming peoples. It's a different way of life. Plus, I would like to see Anacaona in the game. 
@Guandao To clarify, I have nothing against hunter-gatherers. I personally find Paleosiberian cultures absolutely fascinating, among others. But I do think a certain level of cultural and political advancement ought to be a qualification for being represented as a civilization, and to my knowledge no Caribbean society achieved that, unlike the hunter-gatherers of the PNW who created fantastic artifacts, employed specialists, had a rigidly stratified society whose noble pedigrees were not incomparable to those of Medieval Europe (except matrilineal, of course), and otherwise had a lifestyle far more like an advanced agrarian culture than that of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.
God of Kings
Ruler of all heads of state
The peoples of the Pacific Northwest (North America) also raised geoducks before they became a popular aphrodisiac among East Asians.
A geoduck is essentially a clam-like mollusc with a long siphon.
A geoduck is essentially a clam-like mollusc with a long siphon.
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 7+1=8 - Who cares they are European civ? We're still missing lot of European civs (Netherlands, Byzantium, Celts, Portugal, Bohemia...). They had an impact on history. And they are concrete Celtic tribe, that's another bonus.
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 19-3=16 - I've already said it. I'm not interrested in Native Americans. And Muskogee is more interresting choice than Haida/Tlingit for me. Yes, they have very impressive art, but the others are bigger priority.
Maori/Other Polynesians 6
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 7+1=8 - Who cares they are European civ? We're still missing lot of European civs (Netherlands, Byzantium, Celts, Portugal, Bohemia...). They had an impact on history. And they are concrete Celtic tribe, that's another bonus.
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 19-3=16 - I've already said it. I'm not interrested in Native Americans. And Muskogee is more interresting choice than Haida/Tlingit for me. Yes, they have very impressive art, but the others are bigger priority.
Maori/Other Polynesians 6
Returning Lurker
Prince
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18+1=19
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 8
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 16-3=13
Maori/Other Polynesians 6
I just find the PNW Natives boring. They sat in their corner of the map minding their own business and doing their own thing until the USA and Canada rolled in and took everything without much in the way of a fight. What I am NOT saying is that they had to make some sort of big epic last stand war against 2 continental powerhouses to be considered historically relevant to the civilization franchise or that they had to influence foreign policy in Hyderabad. What I AM saying is that for me to care about a prospective civilization they had to interact with foreign cultures in a meaningful way or impactful way, and I feel like they really didn't do that. The PNW met with Russians, Spaniards, French, Canadians, (US) Americans, and native tribes from around the continent, yet they didn't seem to interact with any of them in any actually important way. Sure they traded as far south as Nevada, and they exchanged goods with American and Canadian trappers and woodsmen, but what impact did they have on the culture or history of Nevada natives or on America and Canada outside of the direct area they inhabited? Token influences at best. I just find that completely uninteresting.
As for Nigeria I do think they've made major impacts on both the African continent and the European world, as Africa's largest economy by a massive margin with a quickly developing service and science industry and one of only 3 African nations with a respected space program I'd say Nigeria not only WAS relevant but still IS relevant.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 8
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 16-3=13
Maori/Other Polynesians 6
I just find the PNW Natives boring. They sat in their corner of the map minding their own business and doing their own thing until the USA and Canada rolled in and took everything without much in the way of a fight. What I am NOT saying is that they had to make some sort of big epic last stand war against 2 continental powerhouses to be considered historically relevant to the civilization franchise or that they had to influence foreign policy in Hyderabad. What I AM saying is that for me to care about a prospective civilization they had to interact with foreign cultures in a meaningful way or impactful way, and I feel like they really didn't do that. The PNW met with Russians, Spaniards, French, Canadians, (US) Americans, and native tribes from around the continent, yet they didn't seem to interact with any of them in any actually important way. Sure they traded as far south as Nevada, and they exchanged goods with American and Canadian trappers and woodsmen, but what impact did they have on the culture or history of Nevada natives or on America and Canada outside of the direct area they inhabited? Token influences at best. I just find that completely uninteresting.
As for Nigeria I do think they've made major impacts on both the African continent and the European world, as Africa's largest economy by a massive margin with a quickly developing service and science industry and one of only 3 African nations with a respected space program I'd say Nigeria not only WAS relevant but still IS relevant.
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Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 19
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 8 - 3 = 5 I'm not particularly interested in that.
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 13
Maori/Other Polynesians 6 + 1 = 7 Trying to save them, which seem to be the next to fall.
I think Guandao has already answered. I agree with you that Caribbean natives are too primitive, but I think we have enough information to think of a civ Taino. About Anacaona, it would be something different a female leader ruling a Native American civ. And we have Agüeybaná II who led a Taino rebellion against the Spanish in Puerto Rico. Even though some classify the Taino culture as belonging to the Arawak, it would be nice to have one or the other in the game. For me, Arawak/Taino would be nice additions, at least they are not more one civ native of North America
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 8 - 3 = 5 I'm not particularly interested in that.
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 13
Maori/Other Polynesians 6 + 1 = 7 Trying to save them, which seem to be the next to fall.
I think Guandao has already answered. I agree with you that Caribbean natives are too primitive, but I think we have enough information to think of a civ Taino. About Anacaona, it would be something different a female leader ruling a Native American civ. And we have Agüeybaná II who led a Taino rebellion against the Spanish in Puerto Rico. Even though some classify the Taino culture as belonging to the Arawak, it would be nice to have one or the other in the game. For me, Arawak/Taino would be nice additions, at least they are not more one civ native of North America
The Kingmaker
Alexander
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2004
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- 1,975
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 19
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 5+1=6 One more hit point for Gaul. We're going to get a Celtic civ at some point. I want to see it done well.
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 13
Maori/Other Polynesians 7-3=4 Very tough choice, as I do want to see them implemented properly as well.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 5+1=6 One more hit point for Gaul. We're going to get a Celtic civ at some point. I want to see it done well.
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 13
Maori/Other Polynesians 7-3=4 Very tough choice, as I do want to see them implemented properly as well.
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 16 (19 - 3) -- Still the remaining civ that I'm least interested in.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 8
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14 (13 + 1) -- In what way were they less influential than Feudal Japan, which closed down its borders and camped out on its islands for several centuries? The PNW traded up and down the Pacific coast and into the interior as far as the Plains and Southwest, as you yourself pointed out. Archaeological and anthropological evidence suggests that the Haida may even have had sporadic contact with Kamchatka in Siberia--which would make them the only New World people in even intermittent contact with the Old World (discounting the back-migration of the Siberian Yupik, given that they did not return to Alaska). They also fought wars with their non-PNW neighbors--the Tlingit were traditional enemies of the Eskimo-Aleut people of Southeastern Alaska, for example. And for the record, the Tlingit did resist the Russians--just not on the scale of the Sioux or Seminole. (A related anecdote, the Tlingit word meaning "Russian" is a racial slur for white people in Tlingit.)
Maori/Other Polynesians 6
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 8
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14 (13 + 1) -- In what way were they less influential than Feudal Japan, which closed down its borders and camped out on its islands for several centuries? The PNW traded up and down the Pacific coast and into the interior as far as the Plains and Southwest, as you yourself pointed out. Archaeological and anthropological evidence suggests that the Haida may even have had sporadic contact with Kamchatka in Siberia--which would make them the only New World people in even intermittent contact with the Old World (discounting the back-migration of the Siberian Yupik, given that they did not return to Alaska). They also fought wars with their non-PNW neighbors--the Tlingit were traditional enemies of the Eskimo-Aleut people of Southeastern Alaska, for example. And for the record, the Tlingit did resist the Russians--just not on the scale of the Sioux or Seminole. (A related anecdote, the Tlingit word meaning "Russian" is a racial slur for white people in Tlingit.)
Maori/Other Polynesians 6
Returning Lurker
Prince
Believe me when I say I don't disagree with that in the slightest. I think feudal Japan is ridiculously overrated and I'd be fine with them shifting their focus forward to Imperial Japan if they could find a way to portray their actions tastefully, or backwards to classical Japan where they actually had tons of interaction with China and Korea. But then they couldn't include samurai (also ridiculously overrated) so we both know that that isn't happening any time soon.
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Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 16
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 9 (8+1) - And how many other ancient civilizations have spawned Cultural elements that include both clothing design and comic books?
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Maori/Other Polynesians 3 (6 - 3) - for reasons given several times before.
A comment on the commentary in the thread, if I may. For at least three iterations of the game now, Civ has used a deeply flawed model that allows the gamer to play not a Civilization, but a thin, single-dimensional Slice of a Civilization, with at most a couple (Okay, in Civ IV up to 3: whoopee) of the leaders that made that civilization. So we get an England/Britain that is naval-oriented and ignore all the pre-17th century England/Britain that was not. We get a Tundra-Religious Russia despite the fact that o major Russian city was founded on Tundra except possibly Arkhangel'sk and Murmansk, and then only because there were no other International port sites available - and, of course, that for a large chunk of the 20th century Russia was officially Anti-Religious! And, of course, we frequently get only a Slice of the Leader: a T. Roosevelt that focuses on his Foreign Policy and ignores his extensive Anti-Monopoly Capitalism reforms of the US Socio-economic systems - and a Bismarck who likewise focused on external rather than (arguably longer-lasting) Domestic concerns.
Specially, it means I have to figuratively Hold My Nose while I vote for/against a 'Civilization' in these lists known that in reality, I am only voting on some aspect of the cv that can be depicted as the game insists on depicting them now: by ignoring large segments of the civilization's development and particular traits, because the game only has room for a thin slice.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 9 (8+1) - And how many other ancient civilizations have spawned Cultural elements that include both clothing design and comic books?
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Maori/Other Polynesians 3 (6 - 3) - for reasons given several times before.
A comment on the commentary in the thread, if I may. For at least three iterations of the game now, Civ has used a deeply flawed model that allows the gamer to play not a Civilization, but a thin, single-dimensional Slice of a Civilization, with at most a couple (Okay, in Civ IV up to 3: whoopee) of the leaders that made that civilization. So we get an England/Britain that is naval-oriented and ignore all the pre-17th century England/Britain that was not. We get a Tundra-Religious Russia despite the fact that o major Russian city was founded on Tundra except possibly Arkhangel'sk and Murmansk, and then only because there were no other International port sites available - and, of course, that for a large chunk of the 20th century Russia was officially Anti-Religious! And, of course, we frequently get only a Slice of the Leader: a T. Roosevelt that focuses on his Foreign Policy and ignores his extensive Anti-Monopoly Capitalism reforms of the US Socio-economic systems - and a Bismarck who likewise focused on external rather than (arguably longer-lasting) Domestic concerns.
Specially, it means I have to figuratively Hold My Nose while I vote for/against a 'Civilization' in these lists known that in reality, I am only voting on some aspect of the cv that can be depicted as the game insists on depicting them now: by ignoring large segments of the civilization's development and particular traits, because the game only has room for a thin slice.
The Kingmaker
Alexander
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2004
- Messages
- 1,975
Looks the numbers got off a bit a few posts back.
Counting Boris' vote, Gauls should be at 7 and Maori at 1.
Counting Boris' vote, Gauls should be at 7 and Maori at 1.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 16 + 1 = 17 (The most fascinating civ remaining, culturally rich and storied. The distinctive Golden Chair for the Dahomey would be memorable indeed.)
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 7 - 3 = 4 (If introduced in the game, they would be yet another European civ. This aside, Gauls/Britons simply are not the most compelling civ remaining. We have seen them (in a flawed representation) in the Civ series before, whereas we have not seen the Dahomey for example. If the Maori go down next, the Gauls/Britons should not be far behind, given that the Maori are far more fascinating)
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Maori/Other Polynesians 1
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 13
Gauls/Britons 7 - 3 = 4 (If introduced in the game, they would be yet another European civ. This aside, Gauls/Britons simply are not the most compelling civ remaining. We have seen them (in a flawed representation) in the Civ series before, whereas we have not seen the Dahomey for example. If the Maori go down next, the Gauls/Britons should not be far behind, given that the Maori are far more fascinating)
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Maori/Other Polynesians 1
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue, Hlai and Langkasuka
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA (13+1)=14 I've given my reasons before for supporting this civ.
Gauls/Britons (4-3)=1 I don't think there is enough linguistic data for a Gallic leader to speak. I fear that they will speak a Modern Celtic language. Besides, Western Europe is a low priority for me right now.
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Maori/Other Polynesians 1
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA (13+1)=14 I've given my reasons before for supporting this civ.
Gauls/Britons (4-3)=1 I don't think there is enough linguistic data for a Gallic leader to speak. I fear that they will speak a Modern Celtic language. Besides, Western Europe is a low priority for me right now.
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Maori/Other Polynesians 1
Mudokon Pop
Warlord
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA (14+1)=15 Personal Preference for SE NA, due to extensive settlements(Mississipian), extensive canals and irrigation (Seminole),extensive farming/social stratification/ trade networks etc.... all making them the most influential in the Pre-Contact period.
Gauls/Britons (1-3)= ELIMINATED The Irish man gets his revenge.
The Gauls are the better choice for the Celts for sure - but I think we're guaranteed a Celtic Civ of some variety anyways.
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Maori/Other Polynesians 1
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA (14+1)=15 Personal Preference for SE NA, due to extensive settlements(Mississipian), extensive canals and irrigation (Seminole),extensive farming/social stratification/ trade networks etc.... all making them the most influential in the Pre-Contact period.
Gauls/Britons (1-3)= ELIMINATED The Irish man gets his revenge.
The Gauls are the better choice for the Celts for sure - but I think we're guaranteed a Celtic Civ of some variety anyways.Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Maori/Other Polynesians 1
God of Kings
Ruler of all heads of state
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 15
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14 + 1 = 15 As stated earlier
Maori/Other Polynesians 1 - 3 = ELIMINATED Agglomerate civs would not work in Civ VI and the Maori aren't enough
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 15
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14 + 1 = 15 As stated earlier
Maori/Other Polynesians 1 - 3 = ELIMINATED Agglomerate civs would not work in Civ VI and the Maori aren't enough
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17+1=18 - Returning Lurker said it all. Relevant nation not just in the past, but even today, and I want them most.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 15
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15-3=12 - Lowest priority. I want nation with interresting and long history. Influental nation that interacted with other nations. Nation that created impressive wonders. Haida has impressive art, was fighting with Russians, but that's all. And I'm not interrested in Native Americans.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 15
Georgians 11
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15-3=12 - Lowest priority. I want nation with interresting and long history. Influental nation that interacted with other nations. Nation that created impressive wonders. Haida has impressive art, was fighting with Russians, but that's all. And I'm not interrested in Native Americans.
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