Never Before Seen Civs - Elimination Game

[Morningcalm]

How are the Haida at all like the Vikings? They were seafarers, but they didn't do much raiding. I'm not going to suggest they were pacifists, because they were human, but they certainly weren't the terrors of the Northwest coast that the Vikings were in the Atlantic. The Washington Indians were much more warlike, though most of their wars were fought against Plateau tribes in the interior and not other coastal tribes. The Tlingit also had a state of more or less perpetual war with the Aleuts, but again there was nothing really Viking-like about it. If anything I'd compare the Haida to Venice: small homeland, powerful navy, large trade network.

I quote from Wikipedia's entry on the Haida (which has been used for Civ V mods on the Haida)--specifically:

The Haida are known for their craftsmanship, trading skills, and seamanship. They are thought to have been warlike and to practise slavery. Canadian Museum of Civilization anthropologist Diamond Jenness has compared the tribe to Vikings...Like other groups on the Northwest Coast, the Haida defended themselves with fortifications, including palisades, trapdoors and platforms. They took to water in large ocean-going canoes, big enough to accommodate as many as 60 paddlers, each created from a single Western red cedar tree. The aggressive tribe were particularly feared in sea battles, although they did respect rules of engagement in their conflicts. The Haida developed effective weapons for boat-based battle, including a special system of stone rings weighing 18 to 23 kg (40 to 51 lb) which could destroy an enemy's dugout canoe and be reused after the attacker pulled it back with the attached cedar bark rope. The Haida took captives from defeated enemies. Between 1780 and 1830, the Haida turned their aggression towards European and American traders. Among the half-dozen ships the tribe captured were the Eleanor and the Susan Sturgis. The tribe made use of the weapons they so acquired, using cannons and canoe-mounted swivel guns.

 

[Zaarin]

Interesting. Most books I've read have said that the Haida and Tlingit did enslave war captives, but mostly acquired slaves by purchase from Washington Indians. See, for example, De Laguna's Under Mount Saint Elias on the Yakutat Tlingit. I'd still maintain that, from my research, the Haida were more akin to Venice than the Vikings.

 

[Siptah]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17 (16+1) most interesting civ left and together with Vietnam and Georgia also the one with most history to draw from.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 17
Georgians 10
Hebrews 10 (13-3) It would just end up being yet another civ based on a story rather than history and probably led by a legendary or half-legendary leader
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 13
Vietnamese 5

 

[RFormica]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17 + 1 = 18 Very interesting civilization; 3 still isn't enough for Africa!
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 17
Georgians 10
Hebrews 10
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 13
Vietnamese 5 - 3 = 2 I would rather see the Burmese and Siamese

 

[God of Kings]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 17
Georgians 10
Hebrews 10 + 1 = 11 Why don't earlier Civ games have the Hebrews?
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 13
Vietnamese 2 - 3 = ELIMINATED Siam/Thailand and Khmer/Cambodia are better choices for mainland SEA

 

[Manifold]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 15 (18-3) they were not the major power in pre-colonial Nigeria! Their terretory was very small. then let make Switzerland into a Civ.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 17
Georgians 10
Hebrews 12 (11+1) I also see the problems. 1. we do not need another "get a religion for free" Civ, 2. to similarity with Nubia, but the others in this list are even more totally unrealistic.
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 13

 

[Morningcalm]

Hebrews 10 (13-3) It would just end up being yet another civ based on a story rather than history and probably led by a legendary or half-legendary leader

Many Hebrew leaders aren't legendary. I cited two in my forum post reply: Hezekiah and Salome Alexandra.

 

[Zaarin]

Many Hebrew leaders aren't legendary. I cited two in my forum post reply: Hezekiah and Salome Alexandra.

I agree, Hezekiah would make an excellent leader for Judah--calling the civ "Judah" might also bypass whatever political reservations Firaxis may have.

 

[Amrunril]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 15
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18 (17 +1) The game still lacks any civs what soever from pre-Columbian North America, and while there certainly good returning options, it would be odd not to add any new civs to such a large and diverse area. While the Haida would have been my first choice, these southeasterners are appealing for many of the same reasons, and they have better known leaders in western histories, for those who care about such things. The Missisippian connection is also a plus, though, as someone who doesn't particularly care about leader choice, I'd still prefer to see the Mississippians themselves.
Georgians 10
Hebrews 9 (12 - 3) Vastly important religiously, but their political role was that of a city state.
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 13

 

[Zaarin]

@Amrunril I agree that the Creek or Chickasaw would make an excellent addition, but there are bigger problems for the Mississippians than leader selection IMO. They're just too marginally attested outside of archaeology, their only historical attestations coming from the period just before their collapse.

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 12 (15 - 3) -- TBH neither Benin nor Swahili interest me terribly, but I'm more familiar with the accomplishments of the Swahili.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 11 (10 + 1) -- Well, with the Haida/Tlingit eliminated, I guess I'm back to defending the honor of Tamar of Georgia. The Caucasus is way overdue for representation, and while Armenia is certainly the more interesting civilization it lacks as noteworthy a leader as Tamar.
Hebrews 9
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 13

 

[The Kingmaker]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 12-3=9 I would rather see most of the other African civs postulated in this thread first.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 11
Hebrews 9+1=10 I don't understand this fixation with declaring the Hebrews a city-state. The Phoenicians lived in city-states (ie. Sidon, Byblos, Tyre). The Hebrews, by contrast, were a tribal confederacy that coalesced into a monarchy, later separated into two kingdoms. They weren't large kingdoms, to be sure, but they did consist of multiple cities ruled by a single monarch, thus not a city-state.
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 13

 

[Guandao]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 15 (18-3) they were not the major power in pre-colonial Nigeria! Their terretory was very small. then let make Switzerland into a Civ.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 17
Georgians 10
Hebrews 12 (11+1) I also see the problems. 1. we do not need another "get a religion for free" Civ, 2. to similarity with Nubia, but the others in this list are even more totally unrealistic.
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 13

Here's my response to you:
Switzerland is boring, while Benin adds something new to the game. Plus it's easier to come up with leaders for both Dahomey and Benin, while Swiss have Dufour , who I don't even think ruled Switzerland, yet has been used as the leader for three Switzerland mods. West African coastal peoples haven't been represented in Civ before. Mali/Songhai don't fully represent the region because they are Muslim, and never ruled any part of the coast. There's a large diaspora of people in the Americas descended from the West African coastal people, so I think they would be glad to see some of their history in the game.

 

[Returning Lurker]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 9+1=10
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 11
Hebrews 10
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 13-3=10

If we're talking about pure landmass of the empire without tributary states and holdings then I suppose we're also going to have to count out the Netherlands. And while we're at it Judea was no Persia either. Nor were any of the people left on this list for that matter so I don't see that as a particularly good arguement against Benin specifically but rather this list as a whole. To quote Shakespeare, "Size matters not!" (I may or may not be confusing Shakespeare with Yoda). Its political, economic, and military influence stretched far beyond its borders and with the entire African continent having a grand total of three civs, all three of which are focused entirely on the ancient-medieval having a rennaisance-modern era Benin, Dahomey, Nigeria, whatever you want to call it is an excellent opportunity.

Swahili same reason as before.

 

[Siptah]

Many Hebrew leaders aren't legendary. I cited two in my forum post reply: Hezekiah and Salome Alexandra.

Yes, I know. And Josia would be the best leader to choose in my opinion and he is well attested. As are some rulers from the north kingdom of Israel. But it seems highly likely to me that someone would choose David or Solomon as leaders and I wouldn't like that. Another option would be Herod the Great, but some folks would argue he wasn't independent enough - nonetheless he was a great king and also a very famous choice. And all in all, I think a Jerusalem city state is the best solution for a representation of the hebrews. It was never a very strong kingdom, not even if you look at that region alone - its religion is the important thing that survived and this one is already in the game. So I'll continue to down vote them since I find an abundance of reasons for doing so.

 

[UkrNixon]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 10-3=7 (Pre-colonial kingdoms of Benin were nowhere near as significant as their other West African neighbours. And modern Nigeria is hardly an example of an economic giant, as most of its economic growth comes from simple resource exploitation and general population boom)
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 11+1=12 (Tamar should be in the game after the poster incident)
Hebrews 10
Maori/Other Polynesians 18
Swahili/Kilwa 10

 

[Morningcalm]

Yes, I know. And Josia would be the best leader to choose in my opinion and he is well attested. As are some rulers from the north kingdom of Israel. But it seems highly likely to me that someone would choose David or Solomon as leaders and I wouldn't like that. Another option would be Herod the Great, but some folks would argue he wasn't independent enough - nonetheless he was a great king and also a very famous choice. And all in all, I think a Jerusalem city state is the best solution for a representation of the hebrews. It was never a very strong kingdom, not even if you look at that region alone - its religion is the important thing that survived and this one is already in the game. So I'll continue to down vote them since I find an abundance of reasons for doing so.

I think they might steer clear of David and/or Solomon due to potential controversy. I should also point out that Josiah seems largely "legendary" as all sources about his reign are from the Bible (there is no archaeological evidence of his reign as yet).

I don't think the Jerusalem city state represents the Hebrews best. Hezekiah presided over a kingdom of several dozen cities, and Salome Alexandra held control over a fairly large swathe of land (marked in green on a map available on Wikipedia). It was a strong kingdom in terms of surviving the Assyrians (Jerusalem never fell to them under Hezekiah's reign), and definitely powerful in its religious influence. The religion itself is not in the game any more than the Cancer horoscope sign is, so I think we ought to let the Hebrews breathe a bit here.

 

[Xandinho]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 7
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18 - 3 = 15 Honestly speaking, I'm not very interested in Native Americans as much as the other civs on the list. I'm sorry, but I'd rather see the Maori leading instead of the Creek.
Georgians 12
Hebrews 10
Maori/Other Polynesians 18 + 1 = 19 They would make a nice addition, and it's a better choice than a Polynesian civ blob.
Swahili/Kilwa 10

 

[Kimiimaro]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 7
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 15
Georgians 12
Hebrews 10+1=11 - A great choice.
Maori/Other Polynesians 19-3=16 - Also a great choice, but not the best. Shouldn't be the leader of the table.
Swahili/Kilwa 10

 

[Guandao]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) (7+1)=8 Mali can't represent all of West Africa. I can come up with good leader choices for both of these (Agaja, Ewuare).
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 15
Georgians 12
Hebrews 11
Maori/Other Polynesians 16
Swahili/Kilwa (10-3)=7 I struggle to come up with good leader choices for this. All I have is the supposedly Persian founder of the Kilwa Sultanate. Also less interesting of an African culture for borrowing so much from the Arabs.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 8
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 16 (15 + 1) 'Other SE NA", please: Chickasaw/Choctaw which would include naturally the direct influence of the Mississippean Culture/Polity
Georgians 12
Hebrews 8 (11 - 3) First, Judaic Monotheism was not 'early'. At about the same time they were becoming Monotheistic, Zoroaster was teaching in Persia, Guatama in India, the teachings of Lao-Tse and Kung Fu Tse were being formulated in China, and Greek semi-secular Philosophy was taking root in Greece. It has been said (Armstrong: The Great Transformation) that it was as if a Big Light came on saying "Let's Get Religion!" - much earlier than Civ V or VI place it, but not giving any special 'early adoption' credit to the Hebrews. That Monotheism was/is important is beyond question, but largely as adopted by other religions, not the Hebrews, who didn't even have a state of their own for (in Game Terms) the Late Classical to Atomic Eras
Maori/Other Polynesians 16
Swahili/Kilwa 7
Vietnamese 5