Never before seen wonders II - Elimination Thread

[Siptah]

Bayt al-Hikma - 43
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 27
Palace of Knossos - 19 (22-3) It's importance and qualification as a wonder isn't in question, neither is that it would be a nice way to include Bronze Age Crete. The concrete buildings built in 20th century style on top of the ancient ruins would also fit to civ VI's art style. However, I don't like to have another ancient wonder that is corrupted by European romanticism, the Apadana and the Hanging Gardens and the Pyramids are sufficient for me in that respect. And I really doubt Firaxis would go with any other visualization, especially since there isn't a scholarly consensus anyway (not even close). As an ability, I would make it a trade wonder that buffs the yields of trade routes to other civs.
Uraniborg - 44 (43+1) as above, way above

@Gunadao On the Oost-Indisch Huis and the Archivo General de Indias occupying the same niche: I don't think so actually. But it depends what you mean with niche - if it is European wonders that is connected with colonialism, then you are right. If it is gameplay, I think otherwise. The Oost-Indisch Huis would certainly be a trade or luxury wonder, while the Archivo General de Indias would feel strange if it was about that. It's probably the wonder that's related to governors we've been told about. But this wouldn't have stopped to OIH to get eliminated, and that's ok. 5th place fells right for it.
And on the Oost-Indisch Huis not having many reviews on Trip Advisor: Besides not being the most spectacular building, it's not very advertised (you can't recognize it from the main streets), at least not that I know. If it would be a museum or something similar, I'm sure more people would visit. It would be the perfect spot for a museum about the VOC, and that would potentially draw many tourists even in a city with so much to do as Amsterdam. But it isn't, it's a faculty building of the University of Amsterdam (although you can visit some historic rooms). While I've occasionally visited historical buildings of Universities, I wouldn't write a review about it.

Edit: sorry for voting a bit early

 

[Kimiimaro]

Bayt al-Hikma - 43+1=44 - The House of Widsom was probably the most important centre of Arabian knowledge and education during the Islamic golden age (maybe we can get Harun al-Rashid as an alternate leader for Arabia?). It deserves the same amount of points as Uraniborg.
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 27-3=24 - While Mayan scientific achievements are truly impressive, I'm afraid I'd like to see the other three wonders more. Plus Arabia, Denmark/Sweden and Crete all lack wonders.
Palace of Knossos - 19
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Guandao]

Bayt al-Hikma - 44 What will it look like? A Mosque?
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - (24+1)=25 I still like to see this become a wonder, and the Maya are worthy enough to get two wonders. Making this a unique improvement for the Maya would be a waste. It's better off being a replacement for the library, but it would look tiny and I don't think it would do it justice. Compared to the two other scientific wonders, it has stood the test of time.
Palace of Knossos - (19-3)=16 Fourth place is best for this. We have palace wonders, and the present-day look of the ruins is a fanciful reconstruction. I also consider Crete a part of Greece, even if the Minoans weren't Greek. Maybe the Minoans are better off represented by a City-State? I've taken a look at "reconstructions" of the palace, and it looks like a mess. It would be hard to represent this as a wonder in a single tile.
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Morningcalm]

Bayt al-Hikma - 44
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 25 - 3 = 22 (This looks more like a unique improvement to me. It's more interesting for the visuals than anything else, and doesn't scream world wonder to me. We've also had Chichen Itza before in Civ many times, but never the Knossos palace, so priority-wise this is lower for me)
Palace of Knossos - 16 + 1 = 17 (Seems more like a world wonder than the ruined observatory above, due to its uniqueness, historical import as the epicenter of Minoan culture, visual appeal, and frankly, we've almost never had Minoans represented in Civ. They were culturally more distinct from mainland Greece than the Macedonians, and I think adding in at least allusions to them would be of benefit.)
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Guatenadian]

Bayt al-Hikma - 44
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 23 (22+1) Not very enthusiastic about a second Mayan wonder but Ill support it for a solid third place.
Palace of Knossos - 14 (17-3) Fourth place is the best place for this wonder.
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Xandinho]

Bayt al-Hikma - 44 + 1 = 45 This wonder is extremely worthy.
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 23 - 3 = 20 I'm less interested in this. I really think that a wonder that represents the ancient scientific achievements of Arabia/Baghdad is more interesting. Uraniborg would be from a region not yet represented by wonders, besides sounding quite impressive on the map. And Palace of Knossos can represent Minoans.
Palace of Knossos - 14
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Kimiimaro]

Bayt al-Hikma - 45+1=46 - As I already said, the House of Wisdom was probably the biggest centre of Islamic education during the Islamic golden age, and thus it's very important.
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 20-3=17 - While worthy, I think I'd like the other three more.
Palace of Knossos - 14
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Guandao]

Bayt al-Hikma - 45+1=46 - As I already said, the House of Wisdom was probably the biggest centre of Islamic education during the Islamic golden age, and thus it's very important.
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 20-3=17 - While worthy, I think I'd like the other three more.
Palace of Knossos - 14
Uraniborg - 44

So much hate towards Amerindian achievement.... Yet I'm not surprised. Why couldn't Chichen Itza not be a Civ6 wonder?

Have you looked at pictures of Knossos' reconstruction? How can you turn that into a one tile wonder? It's not even that pretty, with white flat roofs and tiny red columns.

Medieval Islamic science is already represented in the game by Arabia's Madrasa. Do they really need more recognition? And with a structure that's long destroyed?

I'm hoping Uraniborg wins this, since European science hasn't been represented in Civ6 so far.

 

[Siptah]

Medieval Islamic science is already represented in the game by Arabia's Madrasa. Do they really need more recognition? And with a structure that's long destroyed?
I'm hoping Uraniborg wins this, since European science hasn't been represented in Civ6 so far.

Agreed on the Bayt al-Hikma, that's one of the reason I prefer Uraniborg (despite being a fan of islamic history). There is some European science represented in the Oxford University, but I never build it for some reason.

Bayt al-Hikma - 46
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 18 (17+1) I'd like this to be #3.
Palace of Knossos - 11 (14-3) If Firaxis finds a way to make this a visually pleasing wonder, I could live with it. I strongly doubt it.
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Morningcalm]

Bayt al-Hikma - 46
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 18 - 3 = 15 (This structure lacks a story, historical significance, etc. Mayans are known for their science achievements so a Mayan observatory unique building seems a better fit for this than a world wonder. What would the Civilopedia entry for this structure even say? Its name is Spanish for "the snail", a reference to the spiral in the building, which is frankly the only interesting part of this visually. There are better Mayan wonders out there, and we've had Chichen Itza before. So technically we have had this wonder before, as it's part of Chichen Itza. Also, this structure only has 70 Google reviews, compared to the Palace of Knossos with its 9,400+ TripAdvisor reviews.)
Palace of Knossos - 11 + 1 = 12 (The center of Minoan religious and political life, the inspiration for the Labyrinth of Greek myth with the Minotaur, and not as hard to visualize as the detractors suggest. We have reconstructions and a restored vestige of the Palace, and frankly, many wonders as shown in Civ are subjects of reconstructive speculation. There's nothing inherently wrong with that if the wonder's historically important, iconic and visually impressive. We have the Colossus, Hanging Gardens, and heck, not a scrap remains of either. Many other ancient wonders like the pyramids have used creative license in their portrayal. There's nothing wrong with that. Almost all ancient wonders are just a pale shadow of the glory they once had. That's what having thousands of years of history entails. Not only does the Palace still remain (albeit in a fraction of the original size), but it was an archaeological gold mine when discovered, and shed light on the Minoan culture which is never represented in Civ and little known despite its iconic connection to Minos, the Minotaur, etc. It's also still a major tourist destination, with over 9,400 TripAdvisor reviews. And it isn't fairly easy to see why--it has fascinating art inside with several restored rooms attesting to a truly unique culture not just known for its obsession with bulls.)
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Guandao]

Bayt al-Hikma - 46
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - (15+1)=16 Name me a better Mayan wonder that isn't a stepped pyramid. The lack of tourist reviews doesn't mean it's not worthy. I don't think tourists realize the significance of this building. I really think it's a shame "Chichen Itza" (actually El Castillo) keeps coming back as the Mayan wonder. That pyramid is overrated and it's known because the Yucatan is a tourist hotspot (all those party people from Cancun stopping by to visit). There is a story behind this wonder, Mayan astronomy. I will fight to get this third place. Plus, there are no observatories in Civ6 for this to replace.
Palace of Knossos - (12-3)=9 It hasn't been declared a World Heritage Site and for good reason. The fanciful reconstructions of Arthur Evans damage the integrity of this ruin. All those paintings aren't authentic, but the product of an early 20th century mind. Who knows how the palace really looked like and all the "reconstructions" don't catch my fancy. It'll look similar to the Apadana, with a flat roof and some small columns. Only major difference is the central courtyard. How can we make a ability based on Minoan bull-leaping? What would be the placement requirements for this? Next to a city center? Could it be built everywhere then? It would be an ancient wonder that's always grabbed by the wonder-hogging AI. I'll never build it.
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Morningcalm]

Obviously the Palace of Knossos wouldn't have bull fighting abilities, lol. As I have repeatedly said, the Palace was the religious and political center of an entire civilization. Next to a city center makes sense. And Mayan step pyramids are amazing and distinctive--we should get a different temple other than Chichen Itza though. And El Caracol simply doesn't seem Grand enough, and its name just reeks of colonial stench (unfortunate, but my point is there are other, better named Mayan wonders out there.) The only story behind El Caracol is that it was part of Chichen Itza and used as an observatory. That's it. Whereas the Palace's size and intricate nature was the likely inspiration for the Labyrinth of Greek myth and representative of Minoan power over Athens, and is itself synonymous with the mysterious heart of lesser-known Minoan culture. El Caracol's lack of story makes it boring by comparison. If you argue El Caracol's lack of reviews isn't a problem, that by no means diminishes the significance of the Palace's massive tourist appeal.

I agree with you that Chichen Itza's El Castillo is overrated. Where I differ from you is that I see El Caracol as overrated for similar reasons. The Spanish name, however functional, also irks me. For a Mesoamerican wonder I would rather have the Pyramid of the Sun, which has never been in Civ before.

 

[Guandao]

Obviously the Palace of Knossos wouldn't have bull fighting abilities, lol. As I have repeatedly said, the Palace was the religious and political center of an entire civilization. Next to a city center makes sense. And Mayan step pyramids are amazing and distinctive--we should get a different temple other than Chichen Itza though. And El Caracol simply doesn't seem Grand enough, and its name just reeks of colonial stench (unfortunate, but my point is there are other, better named Mayan wonders out there.) The only story behind El Caracol is that it was part of Chichen Itza and used as an observatory. That's it. Whereas the Palace's size and intricate nature was the likely inspiration for the Labyrinth of Greek myth and representative of Minoan power over Athens, and is itself synonymous with the mysterious heart of lesser-known Minoan culture. El Caracol's lack of story makes it boring by comparison.

Minoans are overrated. Game is Helleno-centric enough.

How do we know Knossos was the capital of the Minoans? There's no proof since the language is undeciphered. Other "palaces" existed in Phaistos, etc.

Like I said, I would never build it, since it comes so early on.

The reason El Caracol "lacks a story" is because of the fall of the Mayan civilization. I'm not sure if Chichen Itza's history is as well recorded as say Palenque or Tikal, probably not. I can't name any kings who ruled Chichen Itza. If that city did have a recorded history, it might have been in codices which have rotted away or were burned by the Spanish. The story you give to the Palace of Knossos isn't a Minoan story, but a Classical Greek myth (with no historical basis). Take that myth away and Knossos is a mundane residential center (I won't call it a palace for a monarch because the evidence isn't there), not a Labyrinth for some monster.

 

[Guatenadian]

Bayt al-Hikma - 46
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 17 (16+1) I will say that I am somewhat biased. I have significant Mayan heritage.
Palace of Knossos - 6 (9-3) Gotta make sure this gets out before El Caracol.
Uraniborg - 44

 

[Xandinho]

Bayt al-Hikma - 46
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 17 - 3 = 14 I still prefer the other wonders left
Palace of Knossos - 6
Uraniborg - 44 + 1 = 45 It must be balanced with Bayt al-Hikma

 

[Kimiimaro]

Bayt al-Hikma - 46+1=47 - This one is the most interesting for me, and being the most important centre of education and knowledge of the Arabic world during the golden age of Islam, I also think it's the most important. Let's just say I think that centre of Islamic education and knowledge > Tycho Brahe's Danish observatory
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 14-3=11 - Seems that the top 3 will be scientific wonders only. However, I find this one the least interesting out of them.
Palace of Knossos - 6
Uraniborg - 45

 

[Morningcalm]

Entries separated for clarity in the lengthy writing below:

1. Bayt al-Hikma - 47

2. El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 11 - 3 = 8 (Uninteresting compared to the remaining options in light of the lack of lore behind it. We can easily have Mayan observatories as a unique building. All we know about it is that it was used to track Venus, and is located at Chichen Itza. That's about it. It's also not nearly as magnificent in size, scope, longevity, age or importance compared to the Palace of Knossos, and we've had this in Civ before (Chichen Itza, albeit represented by the El Castillo structure, which by the way, has much more story behind it than El Caracol).

The Spanish name of this wonder (meaning "the snail" in Spanish) irks me since I'd rather have a Mesoamerican wonder with less Spanish influence in its title.)

3. Palace of Knossos - 6 + 1 = 7 (Would like this one to at least beat out El Caracol. El Caracol was not an important center, and that's why Chichen Itza as a wonder is always represented with El Castillo (Temple of Kukulkan) instead. The palace complex of Knossos was the center of religious (shrines), political (capital city location, throne room), cultural (theater), and it seems now even commercial life (storage for commercial goods) at Knossos, capital of Crete and the Minoan civilization (because it was religious, cultural, political and commercial, it therefore not a "palace" in the sense many detractors seem to quote), with a sophisticated drainage system, amazing frescoes (of which we have several originals), and artifacts (including the famed Horns of Consecration). The labyrinthine nature of the palace complex was due to architectural mastery most other Bronze Age civilizations had not demonstrated, and it was reconstructed multiple times by the Minoans following natural disasters.

Whereas we can easily get in Mayan observatories in some form in the game, it's much more difficult to get the Minoans in Civ since they will almost certainly not be added as a civilization. But we can at least pay them tribute by having their palace complex in Europe's oldest city as a wonder. Also, this is Europe's oldest palace in what has been called Europe's oldest city. Minoans had a maritime empire long before the Athenians did, and their technological advances inspired BOTH the myth of the Minotaur and perhaps the myth of Atlantis.

Citations and sources for the info in this post available here. Also, the palace complex has over 9,400 reviews on TripAdvisor and is a major tourist draw to Crete.)

4. Uraniborg - 45

 

[Guandao]

Bayt al-Hikma - 47
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - (8+1)=9 I will defend this scientific wonder to the death. Making it a unique building for the Maya would make it tiny and unnoticeable. And there's only one copy of it existing. I wish that dumb overrated pyramid (with the name of a city) wasn't a wonder in Civ6. Maybe then people would be more open to this becoming a wonder. I wouldn't say El Castillo has more story behind it. Most of the wiki info is about the excavation of the site, not what the Maya did with it. It has survived in better shape than the Bayt al-Hikma and Uraniborg.
Palace of Knossos - (7-3)=4 It may be a popular tourist destination, but it isn't a world heritage site (El Caracol is at least a World Heritage Site as part of Chichen Itza). For a good reason, the ugly early 20th century "reconstructions" on the ruins. How much of the artwork there is authentic is debatable. I don't think the Minoans are in priority of wonder recognition in the game, since their history is entirely unknown. Maybe taking Knossos out of the Greek city-list and turning it into a city state is a better idea. It feels like a Eurocentric/Hellenocentric choice (especially since it's noteworthy due to Classical Greek myths) for a wonder compared to the Mayan observatory. Plus, it'll be an Ancient wonder and I don't bother to build those.
Uraniborg - 45

3 downvotes vs 2 downvotes. Who will die next?

 

[Guatenadian]

Bayt al-Hikma - 47
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 10 (9+1) Making sure this gets to third.
Palace of Knossos - 1 (4-3) Lets just end its misery.
Uraniborg - 45

 

[God of Kings]

Bayt al-Hikma - 47
El Caracol of Chichen Itza - 10 + 1 = 11 Yes to recognizing the scientific advancements of pre-Columbian peoples
Palace of Knossos - 1 - 3 = ELIMINATED Shoddy reconstruction didn't help
Uraniborg - 45