Never ever give up: 2. Deity level challenge

Well, none of the civs you can really leave in dust on deity unfortunately. I agree your strategy will depend somewhat on who your neighbors are. But I am also saying that his strategy is not something that can work most of the time. Having a low power on deity no matter who your civs are is gambling. So having almost purely builder’s intentions in any deity game is an illusion. You must make sure you lower chances of any possible unwanted war.
That said I congratulate on him on his game, any win on deity counts. But now I ask him to try his "peaceful out populating" with aggressive civs on his tail and only one war. How do you know AI won’t declare on you? I even had Gandhi declare war on me, every time my power was in toilet !
Your statement about not leaving civs in the dust is true on Deity, i was talking emperor where it is true. Then again there is no consistent win strategy yet on Deity i thought? I can see you're doing great in the succession game but i also see that Snaaty is doing great here, you're just great players but with a bad start i think it will always be difficult for all of you (and me of course).
 
Sure with a bad start any game can be hard.
But Civ4 just so heavily favors war that theres no denying it. The one and only strategy with highest rate of success is aggression trough constant war. The more the better. Only then you can really minimize your chances of loosing. Only then it becames irrelevant who your opponents are.
:)
 
^^ Probably true, i have read of Moonsinger's games who never sees 1 Ad because she had won the game before that time on Deity. Sure a great achievement. As i said i have also seen your games on Immortal and deity, very successful and great (also interesting) play.Especially the technics you're using in the beginning of the game are sound and will get you off to a good start most of the time without depending on luck/miracles. But....

Snaaty indicated at the beginning of his post that he wanted to play a winning game with only one expansion war. So he is just not allowed to play as you do and he's got to make the best of what he's got. In that light he did great i think. I play the same way he does, i can win on emperor with similar techniques most of the time now, moving on to immortal in the near future i think (with more fighting) but deity is as yet too hard.
 
I didnt realize he actually put a constraints on his play (like you can have only one war). From what i read i understood he's trying to present a general strategy based on "peacful outpopulating" for deity. I might be wrong ill read it again! But if latter is true then i stand by what i said before i'm just not bying this peaceful strategy, it just depends on many things you dont have control of.
 
2 things are different in this game settings:

1. Snaaty is on a big conti with more passive civs which allows him a longer and peaceful build up time with good amount of trading.

2. Vanilla Civ1.61, the AIs are not as fast as the Warlord2.08. In Warlord2.08 under the same settings, we will be lucky if we could get 4 cities settled b4 the land is filled. Also you have to fight all the fast tech civs to slow them down or else it is impossible to keep up in techs. So I would say war over peace more so in Warlord. It also takes tremendous amount of strategic thinking and good decision making in order to wage a multi-front war.
 
^^ I hadn't noticed this is vanilla. In my experience you have to substract +/-
1/2 level of vanilla to get to the warlords 2.08 level.Still i'm not really sure, on the Deity succession game Blake says that the difference between vanilla and 2.08 is bigger on levels like prince/monarch than on deity.He felt deity was tough enough already.I agree.
 
Blake says that the difference between vanilla and 2.08 is bigger on levels like prince/monarch than on deity.He felt deity was tough enough already.I agree.

Not true.

On Deity, the AIs start with much more resources(more worker/settler/units) and much lower build/tech costs than on Prince/monarch. It is only logical to conclude that any improvements in AI(worker actions, city placements) will boost the AI power MUCH more on Deity than on lower levels.

Think about it, now AI workers are smarter, which level is gonna get more boost? Deity(with 2 starting workers) or Noble(with 1 starting worker)

Same with city placement, Deity AIs get 2 great cities within the first 5-10 turns. That early advantage is exponantial going into later stages.

Further more the Deity AIs pump out more smart Workers/settlers/units much faster than the lower levels, the advantages just start to pile.

You do not even have to play a game to know that, just think and use reason.

However, I like bloodbath and fast games, so I have only played Pangaea, randome AI civs on normal speed and standard settings; from my experience in Warlord2.08 Deity, even when I go moderately peaceful, I would soon face massive forces of Gunships/Tanks/Marines with my knights/Rifles/trebs :(
 
Logically i sure agree with you. Then again he said something in the deity succession game thread that he had written improvements specifically aimed at improving levels up to something like monarch. Indeed i'd think you're right that this must be benificial for the comp at higher levels as well unless he turned improvements off for those levels. I'll have to check what he said exactly but the thread is sort of long.
 
Hi folks,

lots of discussion going on here (good:blush: )...

I don´t have the warlords expansion so I don´t know what counts there.

When playing deity on vanilla, you will also need some blocking cities to keep the AI off from your territory or you will in fact end with max. 4 - 6 cities . If blocking is not possible and you end up with less then 5 cities, an earlier war is need (as always, in my opinion)...



I derived my strategy from huge or large deity maps. There I do an ancient (swordsmen and catas) war and an medival (carvallry and catas) war. You need more land there to compete in the end, but with more civs you still have enough trading partners after two wars...


For me, on standard sized maps, only one war is possible on deity when sticking to the "buildersh" style of play I like to use (at least with my skills) because with two wars I tend to fall back to far in tech. Buth when starting near Monty I also would tend to go for the early one...

With this game, I took the second war, because no Monty near and when having no iron and no elephants, an early war is sort of ... umh... difficult.


Concerning the AI´s:

Agressive AI´s (in vanilla) may attack you even when they are in another war, but only later in the game. That´s why I always try to run then a decent defensive army (in this game, about 15 cavallry, 10 musketeers, some catas after our one war). Later I backed them up with additional modern units...

So far (at least in vanilla), it never happened to me that any AI declared war on me when pleased, in another war and I had enough defenders ready.

What happens sometimes, is that I just forget to keep some AI busy and that they will declare on me. But with enough defenders to hold your ground for 10 turns, it is in most situations possible to cry for peace in time (via tech and/or money).



What also happended to me in one game was this:

I was playing a huge continent map and was on a continent with Alex, Monty, Qin, Ceasar and Toku (yes, combination of doom). I played Cyrus. Alex I already had taken out half, but then Monty declared on me. I had quite a big army because I was going after Alex. Next turn, Qin, Ceasar and Toku joined the war against me...

Game ended 5 turns later...


What I want to say with this is simply, that I have found a strategy that suits my style of play. It is by no means a "killer" or an "always winner" strategy. I manage to bring home only 10 - 20% of the games I try on deity with vanilla, but I just prefere this style of play to the warmonger approach...


P.S.:

I have no information about the changes of the AI from vanilla to warlords, so I just assume that the things said in this discussion are right...

If they are right, I tend to stick to the logic of "ABigCivFan" and games on deity on warlords are in fact much harder then on vanilla ("...early advantage is exponantial going into later stages")
 
I have played Monarch on vanilla and one time on warlords 2.08 before moving on to emperor 2.08. From the monarch comparision I got the feeling that the 2.08 AI is much better at researching mid game, they were even competitive in the liberalism race, used to be a lock on vanilla monarch, in the endgame they sucked as ever however and although i didn't get my spaceship launched before 1940 (same as on vanilla monarch) i was still some techs ahead.

On emperor 2.08 the ship has to launch some 100 years earlier otherwise you lose. I don't have comparision to vanilla emperor though. I haven't seen much improvement in Ai warfare , they're still toast if you prepare properly.Maybe they suicide somewhat less then in Vanilla. Barbs are definitely smarter though.

About playing style: I also like the peaceful way to victory. I also tend to go for farms, learned it from all the SE aficionados here, works fine for space races too. I also incorporated some elements that you have used here like growing cities near the max before assigning the specialists but never as consistently as you did here :goodjob: .
 
@ Dirk1302

About the (more or less) peaceful way to play this game:

I don´t think that this strategy has already been maxed out.

But since I have only played two games so far on deity on standard speed, standard sized maps (deity level challange one, which I lost and deity level challange two, which I will win) the following counts only for large and huge deity maps, epic speed (because those are the maps and the gamespeed I usually play).

On this mapsize you always have some agressive civs near you. Still it is possible (at least on vanilla), to expand enough early in the game (and not getting attacked) when expanding ASAP and blocking of the AI. Playing this maps, I still have the feeling that I´m getting better with each try (mainly in diplo = avoiding wars you don´t want). So I think that at least with this settings, the actual ratio of maybe 10 - 20 % wins can be raised some more. When you substract the games you will lose no matter what strategy you use (like Alex declaring war on you 2400 BC and killing you with 12 archers), the actual ratio is even higher (maybe 30 - 40 % wins)
 
When saying that PEACEFUL OUTPOPULATING is mainly about growing your cities and maintaining peace via diplo etc., still another important element is warfare. Our war(s) should be
- Quick (back to peace ASAP),
- with as few units as possible (saves time to grow your cities) and
- effective (get many cities in only a few turns, then back to peace).

Therefore warfare in PEACEFUL OUTPOPULATING differs significantly from the warmongers approach of warfare (win with numbers, long wars). We will try to build up our army completely before we enter the war. After that, we only build additional units to replace losses. In this game, I decided not to go for 20 cavalry as initial strike force (what I normally try to do), because we just haven’t enough cities to produce them fast enough AFTER military tradition is in. Main problem in this game is that we can’t pre-build knight or elephants for upgrade, because we have no iron or ivory, so we have to pre-build horse archers. These are much more expensive to upgrade to cavalry, so we won’t be able to pre-build 10 - 12 units for about 2000 gold of upgrade costs but only 7 - 8.

Another imortant rule is:

NEVER go to war alone. This should be relatively easy, since we always try to please the other civs. So if there is no war already going on, simply bribe someone to help you and let him take out the big defenisve stacks BEFORE you enter the war...


When we entered this war in 880 AD, our army production wasn’t finished completely, we only had about 10 cavalry, 6 muskets and 5 catas (of 15 cavalry, 10 muskets and 6 catas). But I decided to go to war earlier, because the two front war of Ash (Isa and Sal) was starting to show its influence. Ash stopped advancing on Sal and already lost one of his borderland cities to Isa (Karachi, see next screenshot). So I felt that we had to strike ASAP, because I wanted to take most of his cities (and not leave them to Isa). The second borderland city to Isa wasn’t our target (Lahore, see next screenshot), because Isa would be faster and even if not, we would never be able to survive her huge cultural pressure.

Our advancing route was also not ideal, but we had to cut Isa´s advance. So we decided to go for Kolhapur, then Madras, Bombay and last Bangalore.

Last thing to ad before we finally look at the war, is that this time we didn’t forget to deal with Isa and she in fact turned to pleased. Only setback was, that we missed the economics trade with Ash.

North India 900 AD:

View attachment 145194


Already when our catas arrived at Madras, our army was complete and so far we had only lost one musket (defending Kolhapur) to a knight. Altogether ten turns later, the north Indian map was already looking much better, and our losses so war were still only one musket and one cavalry.

North India 1050 AD:

View attachment 145195


Our contact mission (remember the caravel we sent out about 15 turns earlier) was ended successful and we had made contact with the remaining two civs (Alex, and Huy). As you can see, we are in war with Huy, but this is only a “fake war”. When we met Huy, he was already in war with Monty. Because we didn’t want Monty to take him out alone (balance of power…) we bribed Alex also in this war. Only about 5 turns later, Alex asked us to join in, so we did. As things are going now, Huy will be down quite fast, because he lost about one city each turn since 3 or 4 turns. He had 8 or 9 cities in the beginning, so perhaps he has about 10 turns left…

Another 10 turns later (Huy only survived 8 turns), Ash is also more or less dead. Still, he managed to get to rifles before his last big city fell, but thanks to 6 catas (we sacrificed 2) and our (meanwhile heavily promoted) cavalry, we are optimistic to take this city also without to big losses.

Pic. 19: South India 1150 AD

View attachment 145196


Since we have to face heavy culture pressure from Sal (see Delhi in screenshot above), we decide to leave the last two tundra cities from Ash to Isa (she will race them like she has done before with one of Ash´s cities we had to rebuild…) to keep her busy for some turns more (and loose some of her 20 – 30 conquistadors to riflemen). We don’t need those cities, because they are placed bad and we already have a plan to build one city instead…

We move our troops to Dehi to heal.

Oh, and by the way, the same turn Ash reached riflemen, we bribed Sal to stop trading with Ash (we don’t want Sal to have riflemen already in the beginning of the second half of our war). Our losses after we have taken Ash´s last big city were now 2 cavalry, 1 musket and 2 catas.

We received printing press from Ash for making peace and 5 turns after that we went for Sal. But before going after Sal, we made sure that we won’t get a negative modifier from Isa, and bribed her to stop trade with Sal.

Another 5 turns later, two cities of Sal were already down.

Pic. 20: Arabia 1250 AD

View attachment 145197


But that was the point when the real fun started. Sal managed somehow to get to military tradition and was now also coming with cavalry. So we struck for his horses. Still he came with cavalry… I was confused. Nobody traded with him and somehow he managed with his lonely two remaining cities to bring out 2 cavalry every 3 turns. How could this be possible?

When I looked then for their special unit and found that it’s a camel archer which replaced the knight and does therefore need no horses it was clear. He just built camel archers and upgraded them to cavalry (btw, I think this is a mistake in the game and should be looked after). Since we started to make losses, I decided once again to hire Isa for the dirty work and bribed her to attack Sal. With Isa´s help, the war was over 8 turns later.


So our war against Ash and Sal lasted exactly 32 turns (the 5 turns peace in-between already subtracted).

Sal still had one or two island cities, but Isa (and Alex, whom I also invited to join this war) will look after that I’m sure. We stayed in this war as “fake war”, to beef up the mood of Isa an Alex (also, Sal had nothing interesting to offer for peace). Our losses for the whole war were 5 cavalry, 4 catas and 1 musket.

One last thing to ad:

After Alex was in war with Sal, it was no problem to bribe Monty to war with Alex, so the relations look quite funny now and the friendly mood between Alex and Monty sort of ended forever…



See you

Snaaty
 
Great game, Snaaty!

There is this thing about Civ 4: technology cost is set. Previous Civs had adjusting tech cost that rose steadily throughout the game, making Code of Laws equal to Robotics. You would miss 10 turns of research early and you were 10 turns behind your optimum in research forever. Not so anymore, an AI leading you a dozen CoL-size techs at one point actually leads you just one late game tech research-wise.

Perhaps, the theory of Peaceful Outpopulating investing as much as possible in maximum size and infrastructure before gaining any return on the investment is related to the absolute tech costs in Civ 4.

Very nice diplomacy too. It seems to be the area right below warfare on the "AIs struggle" list.

I hope you upgrade for Warlords 2.08 soon.
 
@ Unconquered Sun:

Yup, diplo alone seems to be enough to break the backbone of any AI in most games. Because of the discussion in this thread, I made some investigations on that, regarding agressive AI´s (because me too, I was curious):

Started about 15 games (as always, vanilla), each with an agressive neighbour (checked in world builder and regegenarated if not). In 11 games I was able to get out 6 cities or more (the top score was 11 cities), the other 4 I aborted. In only 2 of the remaining 11 games, I got attacked by an agressive neighbour (Alex and Monty). In 1 of the 2 I was able to hold my ground long enough to cry for peace, the other I got defeated (I don´t use warriors as garrison units but swords or axes for emergency situations). I managed to get to mil. tradition in all 10 games between 860 and 1000 AD (depending on starting resources, number of cities (6 cities are better then 11 for example) and if I was able to build the GL or not.

I didn´t finish any of the games, I just wanted to test best number of starting cities, the behaviour of aggressive AI´s and the average research speed possible up to mil. trad. (for the "one war")...
 
Great game. The thing I don't understand is how you can afford to put out so many cities so early. On immortal, my economy really struggles if I go above three or four. Of course, the AI grabs land so fast that it's often not an issue, and if I take cities by the sword they come with a nice pillage bonus. And thanks to the improved AI, they're much more often in the correct spot. Anyway, I'm going to download some of the earlier saves and see if I can figure out what you've done.

peace,
lilnev
 
@ lilnev:

On deity, you have to balance out expanding (keep up in land grabbing) and economy (try to keep your economy running).

Only way to do so, is to block the AI of via "blocking cities" and to settle your "back-lands" only after CoL and Currency is in.


How to do this:

When playing standard sized continents, you start about 90% of the times at the cost or near the cost. This was also the case in this game. Now if you move your initial settler INLAND, you have the space behind it (at the cost) for later. Found a city to the left and to the right of your starting city and you have now at least 3 more reserved spaces for later.

I don´t remember exactly, but in this game, I think I have found the 3 blocking cities (including capital) and a fourth to bring home fish because I had health problems (I think before 1700 BC the blocking cities and before 1500 BC all 4 cities were built). Then I waited with one settler each at the northern and the southern choke-point and delaid founding these cities until the AI came with his own settlers at about 800 BC. At this point I was already quite close to CoL and therefore Philosophy (lightbulbing) which I always trade for currency. The gap was quite small and so I was able to keep research up at 70 % (I think I sold literacy to solve inbetween cash problems to the guy who had currency first).

After you have currency and CoL (use a combo of chopping & pop rusing to get courthouses and markets in place ASAP) you can support 8 - 10 cities and still run research at 70% or more.

Only AFTER I had done this, I settled the last 2 cities in the back-lands (at about 1AD or so)


Important note(s):

- Take care of blocking ALSO the naval route via your territory or the AI´s will simply sail to your back-lands

- Don´t open borders with the civs close to you or they will simply run through your territory and settle your back-lands

- If your civ isn´t creative, chop Obelisks ASAP because you need the additional cultural territory to block efficiently

- Don´t look for resources, concentrate on BLOCKING only. Only thing you need is food (and here most spots will do). A huge advantage of this strat is, that we are doing our war in the only time in the game (late medival), where you need no strategic resources to do so (use cavalry if you have horses, if not, simply use grenadiers)
 
After the war was throught, our army was rebuild (15 cavalry, 10 muskets, 6 catas) but turned towards a new goal:

Defending what belonges to us...


So the troops were split and stationed mainly near the spanish border. About 5 cavalry were stationed along the shoreline, in case that Alex or Monty would launch a surprise attack.

We researched astronomy to increase oversee trade and traded it for constitution and printing press. Then we turned research to Democracy, so that we could build the Statue of Liberty. We did´t trade out Democracy, until the Statue of Liberty was almost build (5 turns left), but since most of our cities were extremely producitve, the overall building time was only 22 turns (in our capital, after we switched to burocratism).

The last tech trades we did then were Democracy for Economics and Chemistry (Alex and Monty) then we decided to stop trading techs. Our rearch at that point was far superior to the 3 remaining AI´s (Isa, Alex & Monty) and since we still managed to keep them all involeved in a big world war (Isa & Monty against Alex) we raced ahead very fast...

After we had chanded government to free market (extra trade route) we researched Corproration for even one more trade route. Then we beelinded to Assembly line to build factories in all our cities (took about 12 turns per factory/city in average), after that to railroad (to increase production even more) and then biology (to fuel growth a little bit more).

At that point we already had about 1000 beakers per turn (average city about 60, our science city about 200) and still all our cities were set to specialise on growth and producition.

We went back to politics, since Isa, Alex and Monty all agreed upon a peace treaty (no side had won/lost a city) and desided to sent Isa for Monty (and switching to free religion and free market). 10 turns later, when Alex could go for Monty again, we invited him to join in (and accept again free market).

Since Monty wasn´t as advanced as Isa and Alex, he couldn´t hold them both of and was destroyed around 1700 AD.

Meenwhile we build most (maybe even all) modern wonders (also because we were overrun with great engineers) and I dind´t know what else to do with them. We even build the internet and it gave us exactly one (yes, one) very helpfull tech for endgame (Divine right). All our cities were quite huge now and with nothing left to produce (at that point, we already had a quite big fleet and a huge army because we were running out of wonders...) they were set to produce science. After we couldn´t grow any more, we specialized on science and found ourselves producing about 1500 beakers/turn.

to keep Isa and Alex busy, they were gain bribed to a war which lasted this time until the game was over...

We beelined for computers, build labs all over, then researched rocketry (it took about 15 turns to build the Apollo Program). In the meantime we beelined for fusion (we got an additional great engineer) and sacrificed this GE and a great scientist which was hanging around in our capital for a golden age (more or less for show).

We managed to build most of the required space ship parts during the golden age and 3 turns later, we managed to leave for the stars.


The game ended in 1822 AD and we finished with 95. something points (don´t remember exactly). It wasn´t even close, since the most advanced AI at that point was Isa and we could have taded to her Computer, Fission and Fiber Optics.

...

I was a little surprised how easy we defeated the AI´s. So my fazit after this game is, that the computer can also be brought down very efficiently via diplomatics. One war is enought to expand even on deity if you concentrate on economy and run an excessive food economy (grow, whip, grow...).

And all the other peaceful builders out there can take this as motivation, that civ 4 (at least in vanilla) doesn´t necessary require warmongering to compete on higher leves.


See you

Snaaty
 
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