New and Changed Civilizations in 1.18

[FishFishFish]

Though he occupied the North it seems he was vassalized by the Pandyas so seems more like a Tamil project in the end.

Yeah, but he occupied the north and was then vassalized after.

 

[ShinobiHus92]

I see Rome's birth is now at 509 BC, which in itself is not a bad thing. However, I'm curious if the city of Rome will still emerge as an independent civ/city-state around 753 BC in the upcoming update. How will independent civilizations or city-states in general function in the upcoming update? For instance, will an independent civ/city-state like Jerusalem still exist or pop up?

 

[Leoreth]

Independent cities still exist, however I have redone both the code that handles them and the list of spawning cities from scratch, although the familiar candidates from 1.17 are still there. Jerusalem of course still spawns (but a little bit later) and there is no independent city spawn for Rome.

Mechanically, one important thing that changed is that minor cities now regularly receive additional buildings and defenders. There is an upper limit of defenders and if the city is below it, it receives an additional defensive unit every number of turns. Likewise it receives a free "rebuild" effect (like the settler ability) on regular intervals, but not as frequently as the defender spawns. As a reminder, the rebuild effect grants free buildings based on the owner's current era. To be clear this only applies to independent cities spawned via historical scripting, not every independent city that e.g. results from a collapse.

Crucially both the tech level used for the units as well as for the buildings is not based on available techs for the independent civ, but on the civilizations in the "tech group" associated with the city (i.e. a city in pre-Columbian America is marked as being in the native American tech group and receives buildings based on the Maya, Inca, Toltecs, etc.).

This effect is currently a bit too powerful due to a few implementation issues, making the independents (and barbarians) often do too well tech wise and have very well defended cities, so there is still some balancing to be done. Before I address that I first want to balance the overall tech speed of the game though.

But overall the observed consequence of this change is that independent cities are much more difficult to conquer, so independent cities are actually more frequent on the map. But on the other hand independent cities are actually much more likely to have some useful buildings in them, even after damages from conquest are taken into account.

 

[Logoncal]

But overall the observed consequence of this change is that independent cities are much more difficult to conquer, so independent cities are actually more frequent on the map. But on the other hand independent cities are actually much more likely to have some useful buildings in them, even after damages from conquest are taken into account.

Nooo, what do you mean i can't roll over the entire region with 3 guys and one catapult reeee.
I remember when you could take Rome day 1 as France because the defenses were weaker and France started with a strong offensive army.

EDIT: Also, wont this aswell nerf the Conquerors AI Civs?

 

[Leoreth]

It does. As I said balancing is still needed. Part of the issue is that seemingly the free buildings made independents stronger overall which means they actually decently build their own units.

 

[Gen1_]

Could there be a list every independent city in 1.18?
With their spawn date and place?
It would really help, wouldn't it?

 

[Leoreth]

Who would it help?

 

[Gen1_]

The community would give its opinion and advice.
(add and avoid cities for example)
Furthermore, why couldn't we access to independent cities as we do with new civs?

 

[Leoreth]

I'm not looking for feedback on minor cities right now. If you are interested, you can look at the code.

 

[Askii2D]

Dear Leoreth, would you share stability maps for new civilizations?!

 

[Leoreth]

They are still a work in progress.

 

[Dracosolon]

Some comments on UU & UB:

Celts:
- I feel like it might be excessively crippling to remove the sole Engineer slot they'll have access to for a very long time. Of course, it's not that big of a deal since they're historically supposed to not survive that long, but still I think it would be fairer to the player pushing them past that time if the Metalworker was a Jeweller UB instead.
- How about a Cidainh Chariot UU as well? It's already in History Rewritten so its graphics aren't a problem.
- The Oathsworn could be nerfed by giving it Woodsman II instead of 2 moves.

Burma:
- Both of its UU should probably have the ability to move around in Jungles and Rainforests.

Vietnam:
- Same remark as Burma.
- Could maybe have a modern unit to represent the Viet Cong, they're pretty iconic.
- The Water Puppet Theater is distinctive but it's a bit funny having it gives a military promotion even if it's tangentially related. Will Vietnam even have much use for the Amphibious promotion?

Swahili:
- I'm not a huge fan of restricting the UB to the coast, and just one trade route is a bit weak for the investment that represent Wall+Castle. Maybe it could be a Harbor or Wharf UB with the trade route plus some token city defense bonus to justify the "Fort" part.

Sweden:
- No specific remark but its UU & UB make it sound like a very strong civ militarily. I wouldn't be surprised if the Soldattorp in particular ends up needing to be nerfed.

e: On another note, maybe Netherlands could do with an additional Musketeer UU (Schutterij? I think there's art for it in Varietas Delectat - though they might not be ideal if used in conquests) with a city defense bonus, to help defend Amsterdam against its very powerful neighbors.

 

[JHLee]

- Sad to see Sacrificial Altar going away, it is such an iconic and unique UB, ever since Vanilla. Also the new UB effect (+3 exp for melee units) would be obselete long before you meet the last UHV condition (enslave 20 old world units).
- Folwarks seems a bit too powerful, and personally i like the old UP better because it encourages the player to carefully manage GP/GA
- The changed CoAs have 4 different White-on-Blue color schemes, perhaps some of them (my personal choices would be Portugal and Korea) could retain their old color schemes?
- The Korean "taeguk" CoA really doesnt look right with anything but red/blue colors, maybe they should keep their old CoA (the royal flower of the Chosun Kingdom)

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Grrrr *just* noticed your Dravidians kinda "stole" a proposed idea for new Portuguese UP. Also Existing Tamil UHV is kinda close to one I had in mind for Portugal: earn xxx gold selling TC resources to European civs. Maybe even *all* resources depending on how testing goes. Brief explanation: the Portuguese crown didn't launch a national neo-Crusade just to flavor up their own grub (or in game terms keep citizens happy and healthy). They also didn't know how to turn all the fancy swag into gold *after* it was unpacked in Lisbon so they just wholesaled to mainly Dutch merchants who did the actual "merchanting" throughout Europe. Feedback encouraged please!

 

[Darnokthemage]

• Sweden
  • Birth: 1252 AD
  • Leader: Gustavus Adolphus
  • Unique Units:
    • Carolean (Musketman): requires Combined Arms, starts with Formation and March
    • Hakkapeliitta (Pistolier): requires Firearms, starts with Shock and Pinch
  • Unique Building: Soldattorp (Barracks): +25% land unit production, units start with Drill I
  • Unique Power: Lagom: +50% great people birth rate while cities celebrate

Speaking as a Swede, I think this is decent, somewhat heavy on the Military, but So is Swedish history.
I don't know how balanced it would be, but i would consider making it so that Swedish cities with a Soldattorp gives you the ability to conscript units. Would represent the constant usage of Farmer-soldiers in Swedish history, and coupled with a low population, draining effect of conscription.
Would allow you to field quite big armies, at the expense of low populations in cities.

Edit: Oh yeah, would perhaps mute the blue on Sweden a little bit, maybe almost a little bit azure.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Been mulling over the Dutch for some time. As of 1.17 their UHV-oriented game is nearly dysfunctional; that is, ever since Republic lost the ability to hurry units with gold, and with it any UP synergy, it's been necessary to run a most uncharacteristic (one might even say cursed) civic combination . It wouldn't be prudent to revert an overall favorable universal change to address a weakness affecting one civ in particular. Therefore, and this assumes the boss and community even agree with my premise, "fixing" the Lowlanders is to be sought elsewhere. Even if the new map and lengthened timeline solved the feasibility problem, the little commercial powerhouse still just wouldn't feel right not being able to use its current UP as a lever of any potency. Also, and this is an outcome of base game mechanics (tiles, sources of production) not the mod, its always bugged me that the famed Lowlands aren't distinguishable from any other similar tiles. Some ideas include increasing tile base production, moving Dykes (future Polders) to even earlier tech, or special resources (Cloth anyone?). Thoughts.

 

[AOS9001]

moving Dykes (future Polders) to even earlier tech

This would be my solution. The dykes have been there in some form since Roman times at least.

 

[Askii2D]

Been mulling over the Dutch for some time. As of 1.17 their UHV-oriented game is nearly dysfunctional; that is, ever since Republic lost the ability to hurry units with gold, and with it any UP synergy, it's been necessary to run a most uncharacteristic (one might even say cursed) civic combination . It wouldn't be prudent to revert an overall favorable universal change to address a weakness affecting one civ in particular. Therefore, and this assumes the boss and community even agree with my premise, "fixing" the Lowlanders is to be sought elsewhere. Even if the new map and lengthened timeline solved the feasibility problem, the little commercial powerhouse still just wouldn't feel right not being able to use its current UP as a lever of any potency. Also, and this is an outcome of base game mechanics (tiles, sources of production) not the mod, its always bugged me that the famed Lowlands aren't distinguishable from any other similar tiles. Some ideas include increasing tile base production, moving Dykes (future Polders) to even earlier tech, or special resources (Cloth anyone?). Thoughts.

Dikes are 33% cheaper, 3 techs earlier.
Unlucky spawn? Would you share your save, please? The one closer to 1580.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Dikes are 33% cheaper, 3 techs earlier.
Unlucky spawn? Would you share your save, please? The one closer to 1580.

The saves I still have are all viable ones unfortunately. Best I can do is share general trends from memory of experience. The biggest variable is Portugal: the most common unfavorable situation I've seen for the player is that the Ports haven't settled overseas at all, even more severely reducing your already-limited UHV #2 options. Next is France, which has potential to take off in tech settle Guyana. Third is the state of Indonesia, the usual thing being Independent cities packed with numerous and highly promoted defenders and/or island cities that have to be assaulted amphibiously. Sounds like you've had mostly good luck?

EDIT: On a whim a ran new game and popped out a perfect example. 600AD/Monarch/Normal.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Hot Take: Portugal should get Spain's UP because it's historically justified and would be more useful. We can brainstorm some ideas that would truly capture early modern Spain.