I've been tempted to post something similar to this for a while, but why bother when someone else has now said it better than I would have.
New Beta - March 7th (3/7)
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I've been tempted to post something similar to this for a while, but why bother when someone else has now said it better than I would have.
PurpleMentat
Videographer
Wanted to chime in with some positivitiy. I like the direction this is going. I haven't had a chance to play a proper game since the big swap, as Stardew Valley is eating my working and free time ATM, but on paper the science alteration should allow you to kill 'Food > All" and make science bonus UBs/UIs/UAs feel awesome and unique without granting crazy numbers. I look forward to helping test when I have time, and the iteration that is certain to continue on this idea.
I'd suggest decoupling the Walls of Babylon from science per pop entirely. It does not feel powerful or awesome at any point. By the time it's granting 3 science per turn, you're generating a lot of science from other sources.
IMO, the musketeer absolutely does not work as a ranged unit. The janissary could serve well as the ranged unit. I don't know their current stats or promotions, but giving them March would be historically thematic. They enjoyed far better support than other armies of their time period, including their own medical teams and dedicated hospitals. Healing every turn would reflect this, would not be massively powerful on a ranged unit (no self Medic), and would promote combined arms armies (keep Medic melee units nearby).
I'm not a fan of swapping the Garden and the Bath. It already feels odd with the Well and Water Wheel that settling on a river gives me later upgrades that are somewhat more powerful. Cities on waterways should be early power, not late power, from a thematic standpoint. I don't think Civ is a game series where theme should yield to mechanics frequently.
In closing, thank you for continuing to work on this project. It rekindled my love of Civ and keeps me coming back whenever I have time (and frequently when I don't!)
I'd suggest decoupling the Walls of Babylon from science per pop entirely. It does not feel powerful or awesome at any point. By the time it's granting 3 science per turn, you're generating a lot of science from other sources.
IMO, the musketeer absolutely does not work as a ranged unit. The janissary could serve well as the ranged unit. I don't know their current stats or promotions, but giving them March would be historically thematic. They enjoyed far better support than other armies of their time period, including their own medical teams and dedicated hospitals. Healing every turn would reflect this, would not be massively powerful on a ranged unit (no self Medic), and would promote combined arms armies (keep Medic melee units nearby).
I'm not a fan of swapping the Garden and the Bath. It already feels odd with the Well and Water Wheel that settling on a river gives me later upgrades that are somewhat more powerful. Cities on waterways should be early power, not late power, from a thematic standpoint. I don't think Civ is a game series where theme should yield to mechanics frequently.
In closing, thank you for continuing to work on this project. It rekindled my love of Civ and keeps me coming back whenever I have time (and frequently when I don't!)
Revolutionist_8
King
Same here. Thank you for your amazing work, G!
Two quick question: since Missile Cruisers became melee, they still maintain their Missile cargo? (I hope so
)Was AI 3rd party DoW bribery altered since 2-24 beta? It was a bit insane there (or maybe just I ended up being surrounded by warmonger civs)
Walls of Babylon need a looking-at, yep. Musketeer needs a revert as well.
Keep in mind that the Baths come earlier, and have the 25% that the garden had (so it is stronger and comes earlier), so I think it fulfills what you are asking for. Just need to update the hanging gardens.
I may break my first post vow and issue a few smaller tweaks for the next full version.
G
Same here. Thank you for your amazing work, G!
Two quick question: since Missile Cruisers became melee, they still maintain their Missile cargo? (I hope so
Was AI 3rd party DoW bribery altered since 2-24 beta? It was a bit insane there (or maybe just I ended up being surrounded by warmonger civs)
Yes and yes.
G
superchase9000
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2016
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- 7
Hey G,
I'm actually enjoying the rework so far. It still needs bug fixing here and there, but overall I think it's much needed, especially with science. Unfortunately, tradition opener now seems completely underwhelming compared to progress, even with the recent nerfs to progress. Also you gutted my favorite pantheon! I loved God of War's healing ability and faith granting kills. It was one of the few pantheons that didn't give a set faith per turn, but offered a way for aggressive play throughout the entire game. The God or Protection now giving the healing bonus only seems a little weak compared to other pantheons giving faith and science, faith and happiness, or faith and culture. What was the reason behind the change? I know it now gives +1 faith per turn for walls and barracks, but it's not the same.
I'm actually enjoying the rework so far. It still needs bug fixing here and there, but overall I think it's much needed, especially with science. Unfortunately, tradition opener now seems completely underwhelming compared to progress, even with the recent nerfs to progress. Also you gutted my favorite pantheon! I loved God of War's healing ability and faith granting kills. It was one of the few pantheons that didn't give a set faith per turn, but offered a way for aggressive play throughout the entire game. The God or Protection now giving the healing bonus only seems a little weak compared to other pantheons giving faith and science, faith and happiness, or faith and culture. What was the reason behind the change? I know it now gives +1 faith per turn for walls and barracks, but it's not the same.
I've mentioned this before but I just want to say that the percent scalings on the ancient era buildings is not a good idea. 10% faith to science means you need 10 faith in that city specifically to start seeing any benefit at all. Also, a lot of beliefs, some UAs and some SoPols have global yields, which do not contribute to these percent scalings. Balancing these would be hard because you have so many different combinations of city and global yields for any given civ.
RedRover57
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2010
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- 1,014
Is the ability to clear marsh still very far into the tech tree? If so, what is the rationale? It has gotten to the point where I will immediately re-roll the map if my starting location has any marsh, particularly with luxes on marsh.
Dunkah
Emperor
First, thanks for all of the explanations.
I am a player first tester second.
I love long games but I often times don't even bother with things like specialists etc.
(Yes it's why I play on such a low level).
So yes your mod works on two levels. The I want to play on immortal all the time and tweak everything I can touch, and the I just want to play a good game.
I do agree with Funak that the heal button should bere-placed put back in.
I've always known that it won't allow my units to heal this turn but that doesn't mean I want to address this decision again next turn. I just would like to put them on heal and have them stay there until "healed". However many turns that takes.
The Food versus science theory really explains why I have been falling way behind in science.
Up until the last game I still build my cities like I did in vanilla. I did much better knowing to build more connected farms.
The question is. Now what? Will pumping food still be the priority? It may not help with Science but it will still push the population.
I am a player first tester second.
I love long games but I often times don't even bother with things like specialists etc.
(Yes it's why I play on such a low level).
So yes your mod works on two levels. The I want to play on immortal all the time and tweak everything I can touch, and the I just want to play a good game.
I do agree with Funak that the heal button should be
I've always known that it won't allow my units to heal this turn but that doesn't mean I want to address this decision again next turn. I just would like to put them on heal and have them stay there until "healed". However many turns that takes.
The Food versus science theory really explains why I have been falling way behind in science.
Up until the last game I still build my cities like I did in vanilla. I did much better knowing to build more connected farms.
The question is. Now what? Will pumping food still be the priority? It may not help with Science but it will still push the population.
See patchnotes above. Religion (primary faith sourc) now funnels faith through capital/holy city. So +10 faith is very possible early on. Also scales quite well. We'll see how it works after we let this simmer for a bit.
Yes. Because that's how long it took mankind to truly understand how to drain a marsh.
The button wasn't 'removed,' there was an underlying issue in the DLL that, once resolved, fixed an interface bug.
G
bane_
Howardianism High-Priest
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2013
- Messages
- 1,559
Walls of Babylon need a looking-at, yep. Musketeer needs a revert as well.
Keep in mind that the Baths come earlier, and have the 25% that the garden had (so it is stronger and comes earlier), so I think it fulfills what you are asking for. Just need to update the hanging gardens.
I may break my first post vow and issue a few smaller tweaks for the next full version.
G
Could you tell me what exactly changed in the OP?
Thanks.
tu_79
Deity
About the fortify button, I have to admit that I forget often that it doesn't work the same turn I have moved. I don't know if just removing it is better than a tooltip, but it was something that needed addressing, specially for noobs.
I have to agree with Funak in that +1 yield for uniques is boring. Easy to understand but straighforward and thus boring. It's more exciting abilities like embark from turn 0, capture enemy units, free social policies/great people, bonus to incoming trade routes, things that make you eager to try it. Nothing wrong with some simple, easy to understand UA (some civs have to be boring for others to be exciting).
I have to agree with Funak in that +1 yield for uniques is boring. Easy to understand but straighforward and thus boring. It's more exciting abilities like embark from turn 0, capture enemy units, free social policies/great people, bonus to incoming trade routes, things that make you eager to try it. Nothing wrong with some simple, easy to understand UA (some civs have to be boring for others to be exciting).
Acronyms do not concern me, admiral, I want them found.
Honestly, it doesn't matter what the reasoning behind it is, the button used to be there, now it isn't there anymore, can we have it back?
Another thing, I had a huge bug to report, but I seem to have misplaced it, was saving it for my next post. Anyways there is a huge bug somewhere and someone should probably find it
Guynemer
King
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2002
- Messages
- 886
Re: the Walls of Babylon, instead of a science boost (which is rather lackluster compared to Babylon's UA science boost), perhaps a culture per pop boost? The Walls were, after all, originally considered one of the Wonders of the World, and certainly today the Ishtar Gate is considered a cultural treasure. I may have just talked myself into a tourism boost instead, actually.
I encountered a bug in the 24/2 beta, but I suspect it's sufficiently rare that I would be surprised if it's been fixed since then. Unfortunately I don't have logs, and like an idiot I deleted the save files when I downloaded the new beta just now.
Playing as Austria, I attacked a city state ally that I had a diplomatic marriage with. This led to a state of perpetual war with the city state.
- According to the city state menu, influence over it hadn't declined yet the city state now apparently had another ally
- There was no option in the city state menu to ask for peace, only to declare war (which did nothing).
- It also broke the mouse-over info on the city state banner - from then on it only showed either the info for completely different cities, or only the religious info for that city state.
I don't know if this happens whenever Austria attacks a city state ally that it has a diplomatic marriage with, or if it happened due to the ridiculously rare circumstances and specific way it happened: In a war against Denmark, the city state ally captured a Danish city that I desperately needed. My first move the next turn was declaring war against the city state by attacking and immediately capturing the city (no formal declaration of war in the city state menu, I declared by attacking).
Apart from that, I'm absolutely loving some of the new changes. Especially direction of the AI diplomacy rework, I was so tired of some the erratic behaviour shown by even "reliable" allies.
Playing as Austria, I attacked a city state ally that I had a diplomatic marriage with. This led to a state of perpetual war with the city state.
- According to the city state menu, influence over it hadn't declined yet the city state now apparently had another ally
- There was no option in the city state menu to ask for peace, only to declare war (which did nothing).
- It also broke the mouse-over info on the city state banner - from then on it only showed either the info for completely different cities, or only the religious info for that city state.
I don't know if this happens whenever Austria attacks a city state ally that it has a diplomatic marriage with, or if it happened due to the ridiculously rare circumstances and specific way it happened: In a war against Denmark, the city state ally captured a Danish city that I desperately needed. My first move the next turn was declaring war against the city state by attacking and immediately capturing the city (no formal declaration of war in the city state menu, I declared by attacking).
Apart from that, I'm absolutely loving some of the new changes. Especially direction of the AI diplomacy rework, I was so tired of some the erratic behaviour shown by even "reliable" allies.
I'd recommend posting that in the bug report thread as well. That sounds like a pretty significant problem with the Austria UA.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=528142
For Baths/Gardens? Yep. Baths are fresh water, Gardens no fresh water. Baths 25% GP rate, Gardens 20%. Everything else the same.
They get tech yield increases. The issue for the Kuna was simple: the +2 science was too strong on turn 0. Got them to their UA too fast, and thus to a free Great Scientist if they wanted (for utterly bonkers early science). The +2 faith is still there (and strong).
I leave that to ilteroi.
Perhaps. Though science is pretty solid for Babylon.
Already fixed.
Was a lua issue.G
tu_79
Deity
I am not saying +2 yield is better. Surely +1 is more balanced. I was just conceding Funak a valid point in that simple +1 yield sound boring. A little +1 here or there just replaces the need for a building or change the improvements we make, it usually doesn't change the way we play. Abilities like Austrias' do. Playing with Austria or Venice feels very different.
But please, let's address that after beta is actually working.
I know I'm known for being overly conservative. But could you please flip them back? You can flip the techs they unlock for all I care but the Garden have always been the Garden, randomly changing it is going to make new people feel even more alienated.
Also, your logic for Baths needing access to water and Gardens not is kinda flawed, Gardens need plenty of water.
If this really is a tick for you, replace the Bath with something else, just leave the garden alone.
This isn't about something being good or not, it's about it looking boring.
For the Kuna, the improvement alone is super-restrictive, you need forests/jungle and you can't build them next to each other. That might not sound like much, but it is actually really restrictive.
Now the yields it provides 1S 2Fa just doesn't look very impressive for that restrictiveness. Compare it to the other 3(4) ancient era unique improvements.
Eki - 1Fo 1P 1C +1P for every 2 adjacent Eki.
The Eki for starters is way less restrictive than the Kuna, rivers are pretty common, but you can usually fit quite a few Eki next to each other in a group, averaging out on more Eki per city than Kuna per city. As far as yields go I think they are fairly equal, food, production and culture are 3 really powerful yields early on, the Eki shoots ahead slightly when you can stack them up. More than anything however is that they look really interesting, and working them isn't going to kill your infra-structure the way working kuna does.
Encampment - 2Fo 1P 1C defensive bonuses.
The Encampment is a lot less restrictive than the Kuna, you just need to avoid hills and other Encampments. The yields feel more impressive, and on top of that you have the defensive bonuses in case you get attacked.
Brazilwood camp - 2G 1C
Man this improvement got bad all of a sudden. I mean I was all for nerfing it, but damn it is icky.
The thing the Brazilwood camp has going for it is that it's always better than a Jungle Lumbermill and it unlocks a lot earlier. Unlike the Kuna you're not going to run into situations where you can't build a BW camp because of adjacency issues. I guess the early gold helps you rush buildings which can kickstart your economy. And technically if you're failing your early economy 1gold translates into 1 science.
As for the Walls of Babylon, I'm not suggesting that they need a buff, I'm saying if you have 1/10 pop science on it, you might as well just not have any science on it at all, 1/10pop scaling is pretty close to worthless.
By the way, checking the civpedia out, you forgot to update the Academy science on the Improvements home page (still says 7 base)
I need you, Ilteroi, you're my only hope!
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