LifeOfBrian
King
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Thanks for the reply ArthurF, I created a GitHub account and reported the issue.
New Beta Version - August 21st (8-21b)
- Thread starter Gazebo
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bigcat88
King
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Are you using some tech mods? As I remember composite is last tech in classical.
pineappledan
Deity
I like the idea of moving comp bow to writing instead. That puts comps on a tech that has trapping as a prereq. Also, I think it will make playing Babylon a lot more fun. Right now, you rush writing with Babylon, but then you are stuck researching a ton more techs to get your bowmen, and they feel like they obsolete as soon as they come out.
I like moving the catapult to ironworking, but giving them an iron strategic requirement will hobble so many starts. I would guess the proportion of times I have 2 or less iron on a start with a warmonger civ is 20-30% (standard continents). That’s somewhere between a fifth and a quarter of games where I would simply be unable to invade anyone because both of my siege units require an iron resource. This would cause so many rerolls, and I’m pretty confident I saying that is a step backwards.
EDIT: you know what would make more sense to me as a sword line promotion? A bonus in rough terrain.
That’s where swords excelled, after all, was when spears and pokes couldn’t get into proper formation. Detachments of swordsmen were far more flexible and successful in variable terrain, but could never match a phalanx on even ground. Why do we keep trying to make swords > spears anyways? That’s never how this has worked.
I like moving the catapult to ironworking, but giving them an iron strategic requirement will hobble so many starts. I would guess the proportion of times I have 2 or less iron on a start with a warmonger civ is 20-30% (standard continents). That’s somewhere between a fifth and a quarter of games where I would simply be unable to invade anyone because both of my siege units require an iron resource. This would cause so many rerolls, and I’m pretty confident I saying that is a step backwards.
EDIT: you know what would make more sense to me as a sword line promotion? A bonus in rough terrain.
That’s where swords excelled, after all, was when spears and pokes couldn’t get into proper formation. Detachments of swordsmen were far more flexible and successful in variable terrain, but could never match a phalanx on even ground. Why do we keep trying to make swords > spears anyways? That’s never how this has worked.
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Instead of line breaker, I say give swords cover. They will then be stronger against their real enemy, bows cats and cities, but won’t be better at taking cities.
I would also say the cat tech change is interesting, but also think no iron is the right approach. Right now the issue with cats is I can rush them in a way that I can avoid archers, even if playing mostly peaceful.
With these changes I have to commit more heavily to war trees to get them, so archers and c bows become more useful when pursuing more peaceful paths. That’s a reasonable niche delineation to me.
I would also say the cat tech change is interesting, but also think no iron is the right approach. Right now the issue with cats is I can rush them in a way that I can avoid archers, even if playing mostly peaceful.
With these changes I have to commit more heavily to war trees to get them, so archers and c bows become more useful when pursuing more peaceful paths. That’s a reasonable niche delineation to me.
Throwing out a cooky idea for Spears and pikes. I’ve mentioned to give swords pilum before, which would give them the ability to apply some pressure without taking damage, which is what makes ranged units so great.
It’s generally been seen as too good, so what about a watered down version for Spears and pikes.
A few ideas:
1) any unit that is adjacent to 3 Spears takes 10 damage a round. (Pure spear lines bring pain with reach).
2) a spear that has a +50% or greater flanking bonus does 10 damage a round (a more generic version, Spears can flank with anything to get their damage). This one wouldn’t work on cities though, unless you can add in the blockaded condition as a trigger.
It’s generally been seen as too good, so what about a watered down version for Spears and pikes.
A few ideas:
1) any unit that is adjacent to 3 Spears takes 10 damage a round. (Pure spear lines bring pain with reach).
2) a spear that has a +50% or greater flanking bonus does 10 damage a round (a more generic version, Spears can flank with anything to get their damage). This one wouldn’t work on cities though, unless you can add in the blockaded condition as a trigger.
I think the tech swaps make sense. If we’re worried about stone reveals I can make a few other small tweaks. TBH quarries could probably unlock on mining as well, leaving the stone works on construction would be still make construction worthwhile.
Comp bows will be getting a 1-2 RCS drop most likely, depending on AI performance.
Catapult and Treb iron requirement would help the AI manage the cannon transition a bit better, but if it irritates humans it’s not a huge deal.
I personally like the idea of making the swords line anti-infantry in terms of giving them a niche. Right now they lack purpose. To note the bonus wouldn’t apply to horsemen, just melee non-mounted units.
G
pineappledan
Deity
Here’s my crazy idea:
Drop line breaker/shock I from swordsmen line
Give drill I to swordsmen.
Drop anti-cavalry bonus from spearman line
Spearmen get Formation I for free
Change formation promotion
Current Formation I:
+25% vs mounted. +10% in open terrain
New Formation I:
+34%vs mounted. +15% in open terrain.
New Formation II:
+33%vs mounted. +10% in open terrain.
Spear line has fast access to Formation II to double-down on anti-cav role, for 67% vs mounted and 25% in open, but they can’t combine anti-cav with Formation promotions for +100% vs mounted anymore. +25% in open allows spears to almost match swords in the right terrain (12+25% vs 16+10% in open terrain).
The current proposal has swordsmen smashing through pikes (16+33% vs 17+--%). That is functionally +4.28
CS in favour of a unit that is unlocked 2 tech levels earlier; completely unacceptable.Swords have small bonus vs cities and flat 10% CS boost. They also have a free stem promotion. This emphasizes swords’ flexibility. They don’t get terrain bonuses or specific anti-unit bonuses because that would narrow their best use case. Emphasize consistent, high damage potential, with only a slight siege flavor. This contrasts with spears, which are specialized for both unit and terrain types.
Edit: as a quick aside, adding a new line breaker promotion that doesn’t have strong community support is just creating extra work for poor Asterix rage. If you’re going to create new promotions, they will need new art files.
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JamesNinelives
Emperor
I like the reverted Statue of Zeus and Heroic Epic. I think the new Heroic Epic suits Iron Working well. Mathematics (which unlocks the Hanging Gardens and the Roman Forum) requiring Construction rather than Military Theory also makes sense to me.
On the other hand, it seems a little odd that you can get to Engineering without knowing how to Write. And that Theology (which gives Hagia Sophia and the Grand Temple) doesn't require you to know Engineering any more. Currency also unlocks trading posts which are very valuable, so I feel having it in the lower part of the tech tree balanced things out well.
On the suggestions to move Composite Bowmen to Writing: Writing is strong enough as a tech already, I think giving it a military unit might be a bit much.
I like the idea of Cover on swords. Would make them very useful as infantary - which is what they are but also (importantly) what they upgrade to, i.e. the promotion would be useful over time. From my point of view anyway, their main function is to hold the line and push it forward step by step. Also makes it easier to take cities with them. Having anti-infantary infantary is fun, but ranged units tend to take care of infantary pretty well already - especially if you have a line of swords to hide behind.
On a slightly different subject, does anyone use chariots? I can't figure out what they are for. Early war? I'm not often in wars before I get to Military Theory. I want to use them but most of the time I use my horses for horsemen until I get to Mathematics.
On the other hand, it seems a little odd that you can get to Engineering without knowing how to Write. And that Theology (which gives Hagia Sophia and the Grand Temple) doesn't require you to know Engineering any more. Currency also unlocks trading posts which are very valuable, so I feel having it in the lower part of the tech tree balanced things out well.
On the suggestions to move Composite Bowmen to Writing: Writing is strong enough as a tech already, I think giving it a military unit might be a bit much.
I like the idea of Cover on swords. Would make them very useful as infantary - which is what they are but also (importantly) what they upgrade to, i.e. the promotion would be useful over time. From my point of view anyway, their main function is to hold the line and push it forward step by step. Also makes it easier to take cities with them. Having anti-infantary infantary is fun, but ranged units tend to take care of infantary pretty well already - especially if you have a line of swords to hide behind.
On a slightly different subject, does anyone use chariots? I can't figure out what they are for. Early war? I'm not often in wars before I get to Military Theory. I want to use them but most of the time I use my horses for horsemen until I get to Mathematics.
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tu_79
Deity
I'll echo CrazyG.
Catapults and swordsman requiring both iron? That's insane. It's already difficult to get some iron at the start. If I have to decide to go for siege or melee, it's siege 10/10. Maybe if swordsman didn't require iron, but in this case, that's the spearman who become useless.
Moving catapults to iron working also allows a player to produce catapults much much earlier than usual. The swordsman rush was fun in its moment because you could take cities with 4-5 swordsmen and some spearsman support without using any ranged attack. Get them to level 3, where you can pick +50%CS vs city and you are good to go. With the changes, there is no place for melee rush and capturing walled cities becomes too early.
Also, quarries. It's already hard as it is to improve quarries. If you want plantations, bananas are on the way. If you want working boats, fish are revealed first. If you want mines, they are straigh on. Pastures are immediate. But you want quarries and have to make a detour.
Catapults and swordsman requiring both iron? That's insane. It's already difficult to get some iron at the start. If I have to decide to go for siege or melee, it's siege 10/10. Maybe if swordsman didn't require iron, but in this case, that's the spearman who become useless.
Moving catapults to iron working also allows a player to produce catapults much much earlier than usual. The swordsman rush was fun in its moment because you could take cities with 4-5 swordsmen and some spearsman support without using any ranged attack. Get them to level 3, where you can pick +50%CS vs city and you are good to go. With the changes, there is no place for melee rush and capturing walled cities becomes too early.
Also, quarries. It's already hard as it is to improve quarries. If you want plantations, bananas are on the way. If you want working boats, fish are revealed first. If you want mines, they are straigh on. Pastures are immediate. But you want quarries and have to make a detour.
Rekk
Deity
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In the presented tech tree, Trade and therefore Trapping are prereqs to Mathematics.
You can trace a line from Trade to Mathematics. It crosses the Calendar fork.
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amateurgamer88
Emperor
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- Aug 24, 2018
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If Longswordsman is getting a buff, then how about the Landsknechts? The new buff seems to make Landsknechts less worthwhile to get.
I think there are 5 prereqs and then Mathematics is going to be so hard to acquire. That seems quite ridiculous.
I think there are 5 prereqs and then Mathematics is going to be so hard to acquire. That seems quite ridiculous.
The issue with this is that the current system has a fairly clean Renaissance transition from Iron being used for Sword units to being used for Cannons. With this change Sword units are gone in anything but extremely Iron-rich starts as you simply cannot afford to war without Cat/Treb, but then (Edit: forgot to finish this thought) the AI will still face an awkward transition once Ironclad/Cruiser+ naval units show up.
Swords being anti-infantry just translates to Swords are good against Spears, since Swords fighting Swords cancels out the benefit. But they already are good at killing Spears by merit of having increased CS. I just don't see any special niche here or the use of one.
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pineappledan
Deity
agree totally with Bhawb here.
A +33% bonus on 16
cs swords will have a massive advantage over 17cs pikemen. This isn’t a niche that swords don’t already possess, they will simply go from beating spear line units to EVISCERATING them.
Rekk
Deity
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I'm a fan of @pineappledan's Spear/Swords ideas.
Don't agree that Composite Bows should be at Writing.
Keep iron off of siege until cannons.
Don't agree that Composite Bows should be at Writing.
Keep iron off of siege until cannons.
Rekk
Deity
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Report bugs on GitHub, assuming you have a clean install.But climbing a hill still seems to always cost all movement
View attachment 533590 View attachment 533591
What should Roman Legion get then to keep them better than normal swords?
tu_79
Deity
@Stalker0, drill I will conflict with Alhambra.
The late ancient buildings, Barracks, walls and markets, define what you can realistically do. Walls for defense, barracks for stronger units, markets for bigger armies (and some flexibility). The others are niche.
For units, it's the same. Swordsmen may be worse than catapults at taking cities, but they can be produced earlier, so there's some opportunity. The same could be said about ships.
Rushing trirremes and dromons should grant some unprotected coastal cities, the same as rushing swordsmen should grant some unprotected landlocked cities. While catapults are useful everywhere.
I'd say let swordsmen start with the city assault promotion (+50% CS vs cities) so they can take cities on their own if rushed.
The late ancient buildings, Barracks, walls and markets, define what you can realistically do. Walls for defense, barracks for stronger units, markets for bigger armies (and some flexibility). The others are niche.
For units, it's the same. Swordsmen may be worse than catapults at taking cities, but they can be produced earlier, so there's some opportunity. The same could be said about ships.
Rushing trirremes and dromons should grant some unprotected coastal cities, the same as rushing swordsmen should grant some unprotected landlocked cities. While catapults are useful everywhere.
I'd say let swordsmen start with the city assault promotion (+50% CS vs cities) so they can take cities on their own if rushed.
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