New Beta Version - August 21st (8-21b)

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On a related note to this, I think Amber should be a mine, not a quarry. It has no synergy at all with the stoneworks. If you want another luxury to be a quarry, salt is the better choice.

Lapis Lazuli doesn't have stoneworks bonuses either, but it is just an amazing luxury because it gives 2 science when improved and 2 culture after ampitheaters, so it can live with a flaw.
 
Any Alhambra changes? Now that Swords don't get free Shock I, that isn't the obvious path for them, and Alhambra has been brought up before, I think we should decide if we want to keep it Drill or go to another promotions (City Assault, Rough Terrain).
 
On a related note to this, I think Amber should be a mine, not a quarry. It has no synergy at all with the stoneworks. If you want another luxury to be a quarry, salt is the better choice.

Lapis Lazuli doesn't have stoneworks bonuses either, but it is just an amazing luxury because it gives 2 science when improved and 2 culture after ampitheaters, so it can live with a flaw.

Primary reason I didn't do this some time ago is that, for some reason, Amber is really, really ugly when the resource is turned into a mine. Dunno why.

G
 
Another spear/pike buff if we are still in the market for those. Similar to the naval press gangs, what if these units could fully heal from a pillage? Again we are highlighting there super cheap, easily replaceable nature.

So even though they aren't as strong, you can send them in first. They can soak a lot of pain and use pillaging to heal up full. And then as the pillaging ends you bring in the big guns to start finishing the job.
 
Another spear/pike buff if we are still in the market for those. Similar to the naval press gangs, what if these units could fully heal from a pillage? Again we are highlighting there super cheap, easily replaceable nature.

So even though they aren't as strong, you can send them in first. They can soak a lot of pain and use pillaging to heal up full. And then as the pillaging ends you bring in the big guns to start finishing the job.

If anything just a slight drop in production cost would probably suffice. They should be chaff.

G
 
Lapis Lazuli probably needs a nerf if quarry is moved to Mining. Currently quarry luxuries are balanced around availability at Construction.
 
A few concerns:

I like the change to Pyramids. The free settler and the improved workers, ehem, slaves are loved by warmongers.
Swapping military theory with construction now makes horsemen require three techs instead of two. In the same vein, walls now require two techs instead of three. This makes early conquests harder.

Composite archers in mathematics... Are you still moving catapults to iron working? If not, mathematics becomes bloated with units. Are they keeping the iron requirement?
Also, another defensive thing that comes earlier. It looks as though you wanted to ban ancient civilizations from the game. :p

Cover I on Legions was nice because Legions already had high strength. I have to admit that this opens a role for swordsmen as anti-ranged units, but they won't be much better at early city grabbers.

Being able to improve quarries with just one technology changes a lot of balance regarding luxuries and pantheons. Right now it requires mining, animals and construction (or is it masonry? Never remember the name). And probably pottery, because we can't delay settlers too much. With the changes, it would be just mining. Why can't quarries go on Bronze Working? It's a more natural place. If it is because of bronze working being already bloated, then move something else to construction, where quarries were before.

About the wonders that grant free buildings:
Artemis in calendar may sound right, but Artemis is granting a free Herbalist. With Artemis in a different tech place, players can have a herbalist in at least one of their cities without researching calendar. This is one of the reasons for building Artemis early game, the food is right, but the extra production from whatever camps I may have is a more immediate reward. No big deal, though. Great Lighthouse rewards a free lighthouse too and it's in the same tech as lighthouses. I just find it nicer to have options.
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus is a different beast, since the stone works not only improves quarry resources, but it allows internal production trade routes. The ability to send internal production routes without having any quarry is quite benefitial to Tradition starts. So it doesn't really matter if MoH and Stone Works are on the same tech. What doesn't make much sense is that these buildings are not after or in the same tech as quarries. Why don't you just move stones to the Wheel? Mining is already excellent at yielding production and it's on the path to spearsman, while the wheel is negligleable for a while unless you start in jungle.

What I'd change:
- Move stones to Wheel.
- Maybe move Council to Mining if Wheel is too bloated and Mining too empty.
- Swap Military Tradition with Construction. (G solution for making Iron working more appetizing)
- Leave quarries at Construction.
- Wonders:
- Temple of Artemis in Fishing. (Free herbalist just after camps)
- Petra in Calendar (stones researched first, spreads trade routes).
- Mausoleum of Halicarnassus in Calendar (Stones from wheel must be revealed first). Edit. Typo, I meant Construction.
- Pyramids in Military Tradition. (Sinergy with warmongering)
- Statue of Zeus in Bronze Working. (Free barracks with fewer techs)
 
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This feels bad enough to possibly be a bug:

Spoiler :


Emperor, communitu_79 map, 12 major/24 minor AIs, no events, no ruins.

Spain just declared on me, with the intent of going after Hippo Regius, according to my diplomat that was in her city a couple turns ago. I struggle to see how she could have imagined this working out; she's staring down a 9 tech disadvantage (catapults vs cannons? Really?), and my military score is more than double hers (48 to 22). ~Half of those units were already in place when she started advancing her lines before her declaration; the Frigates and and Corvettes were moved into position a turn ago, and then on this turn I asked her to move her troops and she decided to declare.

This is a suicidal war for Spain. I can't see any legitimate reason she might think this could work out in her favor.

EDIT: Also, how do y'all feel about the icons for naval units? A lot of them look way, way too similar to me. I'm frequently finding myself trying to shoot something with a Corvette that I mistake for a Frigate, and then being very confused when it takes damage.
 
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This feels bad enough to possibly be a bug:

Spoiler :


Emperor, communitu_79 map, 12 major/24 minor AIs, no events, no ruins.

Spain just declared on me, with the intent of going after Hippo Regius, according to my diplomat that was in her city a couple turns ago. I struggle to see how she could have imagined this working out; she's staring down a 9 tech disadvantage (catapults vs cannons? Really?), and my military score is more than double hers (48 to 22). ~Half of those units were already in place when she started advancing her lines before her declaration; the Frigates and and Corvettes were moved into position a turn ago, and then on this turn I asked her to move her troops and she decided to declare.

This is a suicidal war for Spain. I can't see any legitimate reason she might think this could work out in her favor.

EDIT: Also, how do y'all feel about the icons for naval units? A lot of them look way, way too similar to me. I'm frequently finding myself trying to shoot something with a Corvette that I mistake for a Frigate, and then being very confused when it takes damage.

This game is over long time ago from the situation in that screen. U have so huge lead already on emperor difficulty. AI is performing really bad recently. Looks like U can play deity no problem.
 
I like Cover on Swords/Longswords! I'm hesitant about Cover II on Legions though. Those guys are already resistant enough to ranged units to make fighting against them a challenge. Pilum means it's hard to hold a defensive line, so unless you have a tech advantage I don't really know how to fight them with Cover II. Would much prefer if they kept Shock I or gained Drill I - at least my infantary are tough enough to take a hit and then switch out. If my archers aren't doing anything there's little point to having a defensive line in the first place though.

Temple of Artemis on Calender is cool - that tech is about seasons and nature and is where you learn to build herbalists. Pyramids on Construction makes lots of sense to me too. Tbh though I would prefer if swapped techs stayed where they are. I will still happily play a beta with the changes, but I feel like the order of techs make sense where they are already. Better to make the thing unlocked on the weaker techs more appealing - which I feel like we are doing.
Cover I on Legions was nice because Legions already had high strength. I have to admit that this opens a role for swordsmen as anti-ranged units, but they won't be much better at early city grabbers.

I would be uncomfortable with swordsmen as dedicated city grabbers myself. Doesn't make sense to me that you could potentially field a successful army with only one unit type. Also, I like that catapults still have their niche. As a mostly defensive player I hardly build them already.

I also feel a bit iffy about stones turning up when you research the Wheel rather than Mining. Uncovering stones when you mine just makes so much sense - like in Minecraft!
Swapping military theory with construction now makes horsemen require three techs instead of two.

If this is the case it also indirectly nerfs the Shoshone, as their UU (Encampment) is harder to reach early on. Conversely, Polynesia's UU (Moai) on Construction is easier to reach. Not that either of those are game-changers, but I think it's worth being aware of.
Why can't quarries go on Bronze Working? It's a more natural place. If it is because of bronze working being already bloated, then move something else to construction, where quarries were before.

I think quarries fit construction best, but I guess Bronze Working isn't such a bad place either. I still feel the simplest solution is just to leave Military Theory and Construction where they were. If Military Theory looses Temple of Artemis and Construction gains Pyramids that's still a win for the lower part of the tech tree.
Also, how do y'all feel about the icons for naval units? A lot of them look way, way too similar to me. I'm frequently finding myself trying to shoot something with a Corvette that I mistake for a Frigate, and then being very confused when it takes damage.
Yeah, me too. Don't know how easy it is to fix, but I do get them mixed up at times.
This is a suicidal war for Spain. I can't see any legitimate reason she might think this could work out in her favor.
Yeah, my understanding is that if the AI feels it has no chance of winning anyway it may try to attack you out of desperation. I also get the impression that sometimes people who have a grudge against you (e.g. you took a bunch of their cities) will declare war just because they really don't like you.
 
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This game is over long time ago from the situation in that screen. U have so huge lead already on emperor difficulty. AI is performing really bad recently. Looks like U can play deity no problem.

First game moving up from King -> Emperor. Don't know about Deity; I personally attribute the success of this game to Carthage being a bit OP with 3/4UC.
 
Is there any possibilty to allow Legionaires to keep their unique as they upgrade for a while? Maybe drop it at rifles?
 
Are we absolutely certain that the removal of scoot n shoot for naval ranged is better for the AI? I'm on my first Emperor game stepping it up from King, and I honestly feel like the opposite is true. They've been building the bigger navies that theoretically should be able to fight against mine, but instead it feels like I'm ripping them apart more than ever.
 
Are we absolutely certain that the removal of scoot n shoot for naval ranged is better for the AI? I'm on my first Emperor game stepping it up from King, and I honestly feel like the opposite is true. They've been building the bigger navies that theoretically should be able to fight against mine, but instead it feels like I'm ripping them apart more than ever.

Yes. The AI might have other issues but shoot and scoot was something the AI was extremely poor at for a variety of reasons, and it wasn't something you could properly "teach" the AI. The current mechanic is essentially just ranged units in the water, the AI shouldn't be any worse at using Frigates than Crossbows.
 
Rome's kit is geared towards taking cities, so why not swap Cover II with Drill I on the Legion instead, like James pointed out above?
 
man, moving the Pyramids to Construction is gonna really shake up my usual early game gambit

I used to go for Military Theory to rush my UI, Temple of Artemis, Barracks for Goddess of Protection, and horsemen to defend myself all at once. I may have to adjust a little haha. The upside is that I get plantations now, and camps and archers instead of horses.
 
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