New Beta Version - August 5th (8-5)

[Stalker0]

Now I know why I suffer so much in early games...In my history with civ5 I've never used tribute option on CS, I'm serious, never. I dont know why but, I've just focused on civ4-kind-of-beggining-style (rush few buildings to have some hammers and gold and avoind military units cos of cost). Well, I'm gonna change it now then.

I'm with you, it took me a while to change my mindset on Authority/Tribute play. I am a builder type player by default, so warring is not my thing. But I will say its really fun to beat up on CS! Its not just tribute, you can milk so much out of those CS.

1) Kill their units, get culture, science, and XP
2) Pillage their lands for gold.
3) Make peace, and then tribute!
4) Rinse and Repeat
5) When you have milked all you can, conquer them!

The trick I found is that you have to really invest in your military early. And for a builder like me you feel so behind for a while, your score starts to sink lower as other civs build up their infrastructure. But suddenly you hit a critical mass. Suddenly your army can pull a tribute from every CS, and you can just tribute tribute tribute in quick session. The bonuses start to flow, and you rapidly catch up and even pass the more passive players. Its a lot more swingy style of play, but its quite enjoyable once you get the hang of it.

I'll also echo CrazyG on Imperium. My default build right now is 3 base cities. I build the settler for the 4th, but don't settle immediately. I then get imperium for my 5th city, and settle both in rapid succession. It bags you a big boost in culture and science. Further, because it instant pops your first border on that new city, you get to enjoy a 15 prod/15 gold boost to go with it. Its really quite strong.

 

[Txurce]

Now that I'm in the late game, more happiness is the only broad change I'd prefer. It's too tough to climb out of the 4's and 5's with wars, regardless of who starts them. Otherwise, it's the usual little bit more here and little bit less there.

By the way, my continents map has been completely colonized except for the atolls since at least Industrial.

 

[Legen]

I suggest lowering the population requirement of the National Wonders in the late Classical Era. It's too high for the current growth and settling rate.

Now I know why I suffer so much in early games...In my history with civ5 I've never used tribute option on CS, I'm serious, never.

it took me a while to change my mindset on Authority/Tribute play. I am a builder type player by default, so warring is not my thing

It could be that the city-states don't give quests often enough, or don't reward enough, to make a no-tribute type of play rewarding. That, plus the lack of an Ancient Era diplomatic unit. Tributing is usually the most rewarding early on.

FWIW, I did about as well with Carthage as I have in the past. Their hidden advanatge now is that CS also grow more slowly, so you can extract tribute from them longer with your navy.

Reminds me that the Quinquerreme had its CS nerfed back then due to how easy it was to tribute city-states with this UU. Makes me want to have that extra CS back, the new Heavy Assault promotion doesn't come into play nearly as often as I'd like.

 

[Txurce]

Reminds me that the Quinquerreme had its CS nerfed back then due to how easy it was to tribute city-states with this UU. Makes me want to have that extra CS back, the new Heavy Assault promotion doesn't come into play nearly as often as I'd like.

At size 12, all you need is 2, maybe 3, At size 23 or so, 6 still works. So I try to get to 6 asap with Carthage, and rack up tribute for a long, long time. It makes a hiuge difference.

 

[Legen]

At size 12, all you need is 2, maybe 3, At size 23 or so, 6 still works. So I try to get to 6 asap with Carthage, and rack up tribute for a long, long time. It makes a hiuge difference.

I know you don't need many Quinquerremes, I meant that the new promotion hasn't been that exciting. I should move it to the Carthage balance thread.

By the way, does anyone know how the city-states measure your military threat when it comes to tributes?

 

[ridjack]

I tried another game on this patch; this time as the Maya; Tradition, Artistry, Rationalism, five cities for most of the game. Was on an island with just England and I; forward settled her into worthlessness and used free Great Generals from the UA + Great Wall to claim all but ~four of her land tiles; proceeded to snowball myself into top civ for the rest of the game, but was never able to get myself above ~60% happiness, and was fighting tooth and nail to keep it even that high.This came to a head when I decided to remove the English thorn from my side. Claiming her two cities (that still had plenty of buildings even after conquering them) plummeted me down to ~30% happiness. I aborted the game in the Early Modern era when a city revolted and it still wasn't enough to get me above 35% to prevent the next one.

 

[Deljade]

I have not had too much time to play my game but did manage to get to the late game and do intent to finish it as it got more enjoyable as it progressed. I have a few observations which hopefully will help with next patch. I currently have 13 cities, 6 main ones, 2 founded on conquered Korean land, 2 conquered from other civs and 3 oversees.

-Happiness; It's definitely more challenging now. I saw many people claim that their main source is distress, however this is not the case with me. Especially after medieval era I've been having severe poverty and boredom issues. Even with some massive boosts from my city state army, I'd still go under 50% during prolonged warfare, and otherwise I'm scraping by. The AIs seemed to also be challenged by unhappiness. There was a point in the game where there was nobody with positive approval. I'm not saying I do not like this, as I will discuss next, but we might want to try making it slightly more forgiving, Emphasis on slightly.

Spoiler My happiness entering the modern era :

I suspect the discrepancies in the types of unhappiness between different players occur because of the civs present in each game?
-Building order is slightly more involved, after building a few must-have buildings and some situationally good buildings (Castles in the frontier, gardens in guilds, terrain specific buildings etc) in a city, I felt that I need to consider the building which would alleviate a need.
-The combination of less happiness and more expensive settlers really slowed down the expansion of the AI in islands and empty oversees land, which I like. No longer an AI with an expansionism value of 8 covers everything in crappy little cities because of the happiness bonuses. This was really unfun of a mechanic and the player deserves a fair chance at founding oversees cities. Also, the colonists have a chance to shine at last. Might build 2 or 3 this game. It also allows for coal, aluminum and oil to reveal so that expansion oversees is more strategic.
-The Renaissance cities I founded were not a drain on science and culture as I thought, their yields turned out to be rather good, they are, however, producing a lot of unhappiness. Not a good or a bad thing, just taking note. I also feel that if I had not yet decided on Diplomatic victory, they would have made Culture victory harder. Maybe that's the point of oversees cities? They have to compliment your plan to victory? (For huge map you start position also plays a huge role. Certain starts can't really colonise due to geography)
-This game has one of the better Venice AI I've seen. Though he's still let some space for his neighbors, he expanded a bit and makes up for it by puppeting city states. Enrico is actually becoming a problem I've got to overcome this game.
-THIS MIGHT BE A BUG; If a city kills a unit with the bombardment, ALL Acropolis of the empire get the culture instant yield, as if they made a unit that killed it. It's quite a massive amount of culture, actually, worth about two turns. I tried to not use this as it seemed like an abuse and is not written on the building description. I've found similar issues on github but not this one specifically.


Regarding oversees cities, I was thinking that maybe we could use the code from Indonesian vanilla UA to have it so that Imperialism opener gives Happiness or yields to cities in different continents. It has synergy with Imperialism's yield bonuses and is also thematic.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Anyone else seeing Wonder being much, much later? Oracle wasn't built until some time in Medieval, for example? I was playing on King.

Poverty Unhappiness feels powerful again. Also, +1 to Settling feeling a bit too expensive, hoping some minor change is all that is needed.

 

[Bromar1]

Unhappiness seems overtuned. Starting on a Crab monopoly is a struggle to keep up infrastructure while new pop brings me back to close to full unhappiness. Slow border growth also makes it expensive to reach good tiles inland.

I wish there was some early source of urbanization reduction so you can at least work your first merchant. Rampant poverty, empty markets, and abundance of crabs, seems like something is off.

 

[JamesNinelives]

In VP, heavy tribute is absurdly strong and if you rarely bully city states you are just making the game harder for yourself. 40 culture is a huge amount when you only have 2 social policies. Authority that begins the game this way just has such a stronger early game. The problem with rushing the garrison policy is that garrisons aren't free, your units should be moving around to kill units or bully city states, you shouldn't a military unit in every city just sitting, the opportunity cost is crippling.

I intentionally play on a lower difficulty because I hate bullying city-states, stealing workers and settlers, and similar things. I avoid trespassing on their territory even if I know they're going to forgive me in 10 turns anyway. It's also the main reason I don't play Authority. My game would be much stronger if I intregrates those strategies, but I prefer to handicap myself and play in a world where I can afford not to be ruthless .

 

[Gazebo]

I'm going to lightly modify the happiness for the next version.

Empire penalty to 8% (from 10%) - this will also slightly reduce scaling cost of settlers
Unhappiness needs divisors up by 5 per type (will make unhappiness sources slightly less touchy)

 

[John.B.C]

I haven't been lost in a game since the changes made to the happiness system back in february (I have tried, but I almost haven't played the game at all). My main point being, all this time, that "food" is an uninteresting variable (compared to how it used to work (+/- % to every yield) and of no real value (affecting trading and the land grabbing of "resources" in a negative way). Also I have been experiencing the happiness system as way to easy and thus very uninteresting due to this fact.

I never thought 'food' could be interesting but these latest patches has got me onboard again; no wonder I love the removal of food from authority/progress etc. (gameplay feels less 'snowbally', resources are more valuable, the happiness system is so much more fun.). I especially like the changes to settlers. The patch before this one I outsettled the AI in every game - but not anymore!

Happiness in my latest tradition game was a bit of a struggle (This is good!) tryingt to keep it above 50% most part of the game. Late game on the other hand, late industrial and onwards, felt way too easy and I didn't even have to bother about trading for resources anymore.

Spoiler Late game happiness :

Thank you for a great experience and keep up the great work!

 

[CrazyG]

What I will say for this version is that every thing is playable. I think tradition and statecraft are on the weak side, but they are certainly pickable, and there is no easy way to just dominate (like there was before).

I was able to get up to 100% happiness as of the Renaissance (6 city progress).

I intentionally play on a lower difficulty because I hate bullying city-states, stealing workers and settlers, and similar things. I avoid trespassing on their territory even if I know they're going to forgive me in 10 turns anyway. It's also the main reason I don't play Authority. My game would be much stronger if I intregrates those strategies, but I prefer to handicap myself and play in a world where I can afford not to be ruthless .

My rule is I only do things that the AI can do. So settler and working stealing is a no, but the AI does tribute CS, and the mod clearly intends for it to be an option. I also tend to stop tributing CS by medieval era, and often become allies with them. With that said, if enough people don't like tributing, perhaps we should balance authority without that bonus. I also suspect that I tribute CS a whole lot more efficiently than the AI does, whereas for other culture sources such as progress's buildings, the AI and I are probably getting about the same amount.

 

[Deljade]

Happiness in my latest tradition game was a bit of a struggle (This is good!) trying to keep it above 50% most part of the game. Late game on the other hand, late industrial and onwards, felt way too easy and I didn't even have to bother about trading for resources anymore.

Unless the unhappiness from population gets so high that wide empires can't have more than 10 pop cities Tradition (tall) will always be the happiest strategy. You won't suffer unhappiness from many cities, no conquest and little war weariness, many friends to trade with. You also have a bunch of city state allies as Germany which some people won't have for happiness in their games. I sometimes like to play it tall with tradition for 2/3rds of the game and switch to imperialism for late game conquest and puppets. It puts a dent in happiness and makes it more challenging.
What I'm definitely agreed with is I like to feel challenged by happiness

 

[JamesNinelives]

With that said, if enough people don't like tributing, perhaps we should balance authority without that bonus. I also suspect that I tribute CS a whole lot more efficiently than the AI does, whereas for other culture sources such as progress's buildings, the AI and I are probably getting about the same amount.

I actually have zero problem with the AI (or other players) asking CS for tribute. My favourite CS quests are actually when they ask me to denounce or declare war on someone for bullying them. I like to do things a certain way, but I don't need other people to do the same. Particularly it helps me feel there is some kind of justification when I go to war against other nations beyond just winning the game. I like taking down civs who have been conquering/threatening others.

On another note I'm noticing in my current game that there is a diplo modifier for 'You killed or captured civilians during war', which I don't remember from previous editions. Note this is different from 'you killed or captured their civilians!', which only applies to the person the units belong to. What I'm seeing at the moment is something that applies to your relations with everyone. Not that I'm totally against it, it kind of makes sense. I like to know what the diplomatic factors are so that I can make strategic decisions. For example, if I pillage a trade route will that trigger this reaction? Trade routes are pretty lucrative (and the AI certainly pillages mine), but I wasn't aware of that affecting other nations' perceptions of you before.

Spoiler Civilian modifier :

My rule is I only do things that the AI can do. So settler and working stealing is a no

While we're on the subject, I do notice that if I have workers near by borders the AI seems more likely to time their attack so that they can grab a few. I've never had someone declare war on me simply to steal my units, but I get the impression that if you leave your workers unguarded they do take that into account when they position their forces for an attack.

 

[Stalker0]

What I will say for this version is that every thing is playable. I think tradition and statecraft are on the weak side, but they are certainly pickable, and there is no easy way to just dominate (like there was before).

I was able to get up to 100% happiness as of the Renaissance (6 city progress).

My rule is I only do things that the AI can do. So settler and working stealing is a no, but the AI does tribute CS, and the mod clearly intends for it to be an option. I also tend to stop tributing CS by medieval era, and often become allies with them. With that said, if enough people don't like tributing, perhaps we should balance authority without that bonus. I also suspect that I tribute CS a whole lot more efficiently than the AI does, whereas for other culture sources such as progress's buildings, the AI and I are probably getting about the same amount.

I think tribute is part of Authority’s playstle. I don’t tribute much with other policies but I think a focus with it on authority is fine. If I don’t make any specialists with tradition I’d be playing it very weak, and that would be my fault, not the policy.

 

[Legen]

if enough people don't like tributing, perhaps we should balance authority without that bonus.

I think it's more that tributes provide a lot of yields for how early it can be done. A normal tribute can be worth 15-20 turns of your gold income, maybe more if you're really pushing your costs to the limit (which Authority does). And heavy tributes are beyond crazy. Having, say, two pocket religious city states to get an early religion, or two mercantile for an instant world wonder, can lead to an easy snowball. You don't need to go Authority for that, especially if your civ has an early UU, like the Celts.

Maybe it's the reward of tributes and city state quests that needs tuning, so that tribute isn't the default option for everyone. I'm ok with Authority favoring tributes, but it could be different for the other two trees.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s a great mechanic and I think it should stay. For me, the issue was overcoming my vanilla civ programming and realizing that tributing was a legit strategy in VP. I would never, EVER tribute in vanilla, and I think having an early policy branch that telegraphs that tributes are a bona fide mechanic in VP is important for helping new players adjust.

Maybe I’m an exception, but taking advantage of early tributes means that I am very often operating on negative GPT. The maintenance in the units, especially if I don’t have markets yet and I’m simultaneously trying to connect cities with roads, the tribute gold is often the only thing keeping me afloat for turns 50-100. Authority has no reliable gold, so you are in a high risk situation, especially if your luxuries aren’t the kind that give much gold. If tribute gold is reduced then I don’t know if this strategy even remains viable. It consumes too much GPT to maintain a tribute army for it not to yield dividends

 

[CrazyG]

Usually if you immediately rush bronze working and get 3 spearmen, you can tribute a CS, then use that gold to buy one more, then heavy tribute the rest. You shouldn't have negative GPT at just 4 or 5 units.

Now rushing bronze working is unappealing for a lot of reasons, which is why I LOVE the Celts and the Aztec. Even with a normal civ, heavy tribute will more than make up for the loss (especially if you can get science from a militaristic city state). You can use horsemen too, but it is a bit slower. I usually just stop playing or reroll if my start is too good for tribute though, an extra 80 culture from 3 cultural CS every 20 turns makes the game a little too easy. And sometimes you get a free religion, or several free techs, or some free wonders (I say free because it really doesn't very much cost to do it.)

 

[Gazebo]

Usually if you immediately rush bronze working and get 3 spearmen, you can tribute a CS, then use that gold to buy one more, then heavy tribute the rest. You shouldn't have negative GPT at just 4 or 5 units.

Now rushing bronze working is unappealing for a lot of reasons, which is why I LOVE the Celts and the Aztec. Even with a normal civ, heavy tribute will more than make up for the loss (especially if you can get science from a militaristic city state). You can use horsemen too, but it is a bit slower. I usually just stop playing or reroll if my start is too good for tribute though, an extra 80 culture from 3 cultural CS every 20 turns makes the game a little too easy. And sometimes you get a free religion, or several free techs, or some free wonders (I say free because it really doesn't very much cost to do it.)

Earlier you mentioned slow AI growth on Deity. After some adjustments (and a bugfix), I'm seeing size 24 capitals on average on turn 200 and an average tech unlock of 37 techs. Does that seem more in line with Deity before these recent patches?

G