1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

New Beta Version - December 1st (12-1)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Dec 1, 2019.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,623
    So I am now noticing the weaker city CS. Just had a beautiful 7 city start, and my front cities had good jungle screens, with walls and a cbowmen. Before, this was generally enough to stop aggressive AIs. Well not anymore! Shoshone and Vikings both came at me from different sides, with a combination of horse and swordsman. My cities couldn't hold and I lost them both.

    Looks like I'll have to rethink some of my power expansion in favor of more troops.
     
  2. JohnnyNT

    JohnnyNT Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Gender:
    Male
    Same here, had walled city with cbow and Shaka as a neighbor. When he rolled in with some legions he got from city state, it was really hard pushing him back (bombardment doing 2-3 damage to legions/swords). It is a bit more interesting now, you cannot go with paper-thin army anymore.
     
    JamesNinelives, Hinin, cerk and 4 others like this.
  3. Coffee Monopoly

    Coffee Monopoly Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    101
    Gender:
    Male
    I agree, the reduced city strength makes it noticably easier to take cities. I'd say it's a good change.

    The hotfix (12-1-1) is savegame compatible with 12-1 I believe, at least I was able to load my 12-1 game.
     
    Yaviel, vyyt and cerk like this.
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,623
    I think Frigates could stand for a -1 CS (just a touch). I feel that corvettes take just a liittttle bit too much damage when they smack a frigate, and its causing me to be more passive with my corvettes. If frigates were just a touch weaker on melee combat corvettes could get back in the action again.
     
    JamesNinelives and Kim Dong Un like this.
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,623
    One issue I have seen pretty commonly with the AI is this naval stupor, where they blockade a city with a ton of melee ships...but they don't do anything with them. They should either push in with the ships or pull them back to avoid attack.

    upload_2019-12-4_14-8-7.png
     
  6. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    724
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    Tactical AI issues should be reported on Github to get ilteroi's attention. :)
     
    JamesNinelives and Gazebo like this.
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,623
    Standard Indonesia Continents Plus on Immortal. Lost (retired) on Turn 400.

    Got my butt good and kicked this game. I give it up for Persia, they just whooped on me. I created a fortress city between myself and Persia early in the game (Makkasar shown below....though the city was taken much earlier), but that weaker CS showed its hand...and Persia's naval siege was enough to take it out.

    upload_2019-12-4_15-34-59.png

    I tried three campaigns to take it back. Land attacks turned out to be worthless. I then tried a naval assault in the south west area shown in the screenshot. I still have trouble in this tight spaces, as the two Arsenal equipped cities can pick off ships, so I find it problematic to move in unless I am very very patient.

    That campaign failed, I realized the cities to the north had more open ocean and would have more spots for me to bring my navy to bear. Except....Persia realized the same thing and had a navy at least 3 times my size (there is nothing that puts the lump in your throat quicker when you kill your entire navy's worth of ships...just to see that same navy reappear the next turn!).

    So that navy got crunched, and I'm stalling out in the score...so I think I'm going to call it here. Just a few quick notes:

    1) I have gained more and more respect for the Breacher promotion as time goes on. The AI loves to mass huge blobs of naval ships....so the defense bonus is actually pretty strong and turns your corvette into a true rock (Dread III -> Dauntless is a bit tankier but with breacher can do it at Tier III). And further, that 15 splash is actually quite good...especially since naval ships tend to have trouble healing.

    2) As I play Immortal more I've had to realize that naval combat is in many ways like land combat...I can't just meet the enemy in the middle and kill kill kill. It works great for the first few rounds until an entirely fresh navy comes and gets me. I have to fall back and let me cities/land troops soften them up a bit. So in other words....patience is key.

    3) Skirmisher wise. As I have played several games with the new skirmisher line. What its evolving into for me is that skirmishers have become "super open terrain ranged units". I found terrain that suits them (such as the cavalry above shown in the picture), and they are the strongest unit in the game. For context that Cavalry has an effective 59.4 CS vs the Lancer's 46.8 with standard promotions factored in, so its quite tanky even before you look at its tremendous RCS. I don't really dance with them that much, I just let them stay there and do tremendous amounts of damage to anything that gets near, and will retreat if things get hot. Conversely I don't find them effective in rough at all now...so I simply leave them in open areas and leave rough to other unit types. They will also murder naval ships that hug the coast.

    Ultimately...it works. I don't know if its the best model but they actually have a niche, and I still find uses for my other units (I think....I'm not sure if melee horse has a strong place in the new order....mounted ranged in open, melee in rough...not sure if the mounted melee still has a strong place but I'm trying out some things to see).
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    4CV, JamesNinelives, vyyt and 7 others like this.
  8. Guynemer

    Guynemer Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    529
    Man. Settling a city four tiles from an enemy capital, and Darius's capital at that... full marks for boldness, I'll give you that.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,623
    Hehe, before the CS nerf, I was pretty confident I could have held that spot. It is incredibly defensive from land and not hugely vulnerable by sea. My c bowmen can hit everything there. But...now that cities are a little weaker I still underestimated the force I need to hold, especially against a Golden Age Persia. So I will have to rescind my boldness a bit in the future:)
     
  10. General_Drax

    General_Drax Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2019
    Messages:
    64
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bologna, Italy
    Lately started building mine fields. They work as a permanent Great wall through the game and naval combat is really important on any map but Pangea. Sometime even in Pangea you need Naval support on some nested cities.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  11. ShadedSkies

    ShadedSkies Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Messages:
    70
    Random civ (Poland) Deity Large Pangaea Epic w/no saving and no city captures. Probably not going to continue since I'm so far ahead of everyone else in every regard that they can't do anything to stop me.

    N.jpg

    Some notes on AI behavior and other stuff:

    1. Lost my pathfinder early on so I wasn't able to explore much. Ended up settling Krakow MUCH too close to Denmark for comfort, yet it sat there with 4CS for like 100 turns without being challenged. In fact, aside from Indonesia foolishly sending like two dinghies to take a walled Kaunas and then running with his tail between his legs I saw no war up until the end (where 4 civs all declared war on me within the timespan of 5 turns because I was winning too hard or something). It's like they waited until it was physically impossible for them to actually take my cities to attempt to take my cities. Wroclaw is RIGHT THERE occupying rightful Celtic tiles yet Boudica wanted to be my friend instead. If she had declared war she could've taken that city in one turn with her Picts. IMO the AI is way too docile now. This is Deity, I should be fearing for my life at every moment.
    2. Exploding units are sadly back. I bought another Pathfinder which I upgraded all the way until Explorer, but when making peace with Indonesia he just disappeared inside the enemy's borders. Since I don't save I wasn't able to recover him from this gross injustice. I tried to get yet another Pathfinder after that but they refuse to work with me anymore.
    3. Unusually for me I wasn't able to rapidly settle my surroundings due to poor production and a delicious 240 faith CS quest for the temple of artemis I couldn't stay away from. Yet despite this the AI didn't take my spots. I was able to get TWO monopolies (Cinnamon and Citrus, AKA the best ones) even though I wasted so much time. This might just be a coincidence with all th AI settling away from me, but it's worth mention.
    4. The AI can't into offensive war. Seriously. They pillage some tiles on your border and then just run or die. I must confess that these mild annoyances do add up to ever so slightly hamper one's progress (like 5 of your 6 trade routes passing through Mombasa, ouch), but I haven't been faced with an existential threat in a long time. I love Vox Populi more than anything but even vanilla Civ 5 and 6 is better at this. Of course, they get a bunch of free units, but that's sort of what made them a threat in the first place.
    5. I'm not sure if the ducal stables are working properly, because my popup for building one was just the regular +45 culture which you get for building stuff with Progress and I was too lazy to check if I was getting unmentioned culture. Honestly it would've been a drop in the bucket at that point anyway, and regular stables are so good now that I'd build them regardless. Overall I think Poland is a pretty poor civ, but if you get rolling on your own you can snowball very hard since the free social policies are more effective the further ahead you already are.
     
    4CV and JamesNinelives like this.
  12. Uprising

    Uprising Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    Messages:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    in the last betas Ai doesnt swap great works anymore(in my opinion this is very big disadvantage of last betas ), anyone knows how to swap them ? or change/fix this? it depends on diplomacy ?
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  13. Diverman

    Diverman Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    France
    I asked for this in the Quick Questions/Answers thread, here's what have been said on the topic :

     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  14. MarvelOfRain

    MarvelOfRain Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2019
    Messages:
    24
    Gender:
    Male
    Hi, I know this is probably the wrong thread, but has the bug that crashes the game if you click on your portrait been fixed/noticed? Just asking because I want to finish my game 1st before updating to this version, so I cannot check myself.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,623
    Standard Immortal on Continents Plus (Indonesia). SV on Turn 434.

    Another intense game that came down to the wire. Portugal was neck and neck with me, and was building the parts (and was going for Global Hegemony all the way to the wire). Ultimately a fun game, notes below:

    1) So I've been doing a lot of SV lately, and consistently finding that its more of a hammer game than science one. I usually research future tech 2-3 times before I finish the parts....so its not science that's holding me back in most cases. This could be the way I generally play it (Get Sydney -> Hubble -> Go for CERN -> backfill remaining techs -> build final parts). The only reason I mention that is to firm up a suspicion I've had for a while....I do think the new hydro/wind plants are very strong, but ultimately I'm switching to nuclear plants in my top 2-3 cities...and then hydro/wind in the rest if I'm going for SV. The hammers are ultimately what I need more of, the other yields aren't nearly as important. No balance concern there, I think that's perfect fine...its just important to consider when we think of the balance of late game yields.

    2) In general I've been very happy with the later game buildings now. Agribusiness, Factories, Power Plants, and Medical Labs now all have a "good mouthfeel" when I build them...at least in certain cities.

    3) I'm getting used to the skirmisher model, and I did find some use for both mounted and skirmishers in this particular game (generally mounted is good in rough and good at pillaging in rough). I'll echo what I said last game, I don't know if this is the best model, but its a workable model and I found a place for all of the units in my gameplay. The exception remains the helicopter as I've noted before.

    If I were to pick one "annoyance", its that I find the Anti-warmonger penalty really skews the balance between mounted horse and siege units. For example, if the enemy doesn't get an anti-warmonger penalty I can sometimes one shot a field gun with a lancer...but I can never pull that off with the +30-49 bonus they normally have in my games. That makes a tremendous difference in the strength of siege and mounted horse at that point in the game.

    4) The AI was overall very aggressive this game....until right at the very end. Portugal had 2 atomic bombs and a nuclear missile (that I could see so maybe more), and was my next door neighbor, yet never tried to hinder me at the very end. Morroco hilariously declared on me the last turn of the game, fun enough if the xcoms he dropped had been in a slightly different position it could have actually delayed my last part a turn or two because of the pathing. For Portugal, he was engrossed in a number of wars, so that might have been the reason. The other... does the AI recognize when your parts are built or only when they are deployed? I deployed all of my parts together at the end, so its possible the AI did not know I was so close to SV. If that's the case I will start deploying them immediately as I'll consider doing it at the end an exploit.

    5) Diplo Unit play on Immortal is still very difficult. One CS for example this game had a 9k influence gap towards the end! Ambassadors are pretty much a waste of hammers and gold for me other than to shore up friends lost by Great Diplomats. Speaking of GDs....

    6) One weird thing this game. Even towards the late game there were embassies available on certain CS. This is very strange to me, those slots usually get gobbled up quick...and there were plenty of GDs flying around. So I'm not sure what happened there.

    7) Great Merchants. I think we could consider bumping the town scaling of WLTKD by 2 instead of 1 or increasing their base yields. I think the recent changes have made towns more attractive, but the issue is that GMs as a whole are now pretty weak.

    8) Happiness: So with happiness and my wide plays, here is generally how it goes down for me:

    a) Power expand early
    b) Dip into unhappiness, have to connect roads and infrastructure to get back up to good.
    c) Global Happiness will fluctuate between 70 - 34 happiness, depending on how aggressive I am with my infrastructure and my text path. I can generally keep it above 50 after I stabilize from my power expansion early (which does take some time). It drops when I need to focus on wars or military for a while. I will on occasion get into the super danger zone, especially if I make some mistakes in war...but its always correctable if I'm paying attention.
    d) Local happiness is a big seesaw (especially for tradition plays but I see it on progress wide as well). I grow...become unhappy. Stop growth, build infrastructure, get happy. Grow, become unhappy....rinse and repeat. This is countered by my top cities that generally stay locally happy the whole game and tend to prop up the Global Happiness for me.
    e) Early Game: Distress is big. Mid Game its boredom, Late game its poverty. Religious Unrest is the X factor, if I am near strong religious civs this actually generates a noticeable amount of unhappiness.
    f) My happiness generally dips significantly sometime in the Industrial era. The X factor here are landmarks and how many resources I've been able to import (sanctions can be a big X factor here as well). Most of the time I need to do one round of public works building (in most if not all cities) to get everything back in the black and move on....the amount of which varies on the X factor. I generally find that doing one round of public works doesn't take too long (4-8 turns).

    Overall: My only gripe with happiness is the amount of micromanaging I have to do when the local unhappiness kicks in. I wish the governor was smarter about switching off food when local unhappiness kicks in, as otherwise I waste a lot of yields to the penalties. That said...the system is working. Its a factor in my decision making but not the dominant one (except here or there). It hinders early expansion, but doesn't stop it. Resources are important, trading with other civs is an important part of my happiness maintenance. I generally don't have to worry about global unhappiness too much, but I have to interact with the local system smartly for best results. Public Works are needed but not overt, and gives me flexibility depending on my X factors to overcome unhappiness. I never feel any unhappiness spirals anymore. The tooltip math is still a bit mysterious to me, but I can at least quickly check if I think a few yields will give me a happy or if I just need to reduce the unhappiness through a building (which is ultimately all I really need). While there may be some tweaks here or there...its getting the job done. Congrats G:)

    10) Tech Trading: I think its in a good place. If I'm able to friend up an AI he will generally offer me the option of techs. Its a king ransom each time, but its an option...and one I have both turned down and entertained from time to time...which suggest to me the price is about right.

    11) Defensive Pacts: This could be my more passive style, but even when I have units equal to my full supply, I never get a DP ask. The AI loves to buddy up in the mid game, but I never get invited.

    12) World Maps: The AI still overvalues these to me, they will often offer an incredible amount of gold for one. Don't get me wrong, the maps can be nice, but they aren't worth that much.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    Erikose, 4CV, phantomaxl1207 and 5 others like this.
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,574
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    re: 4), it knows when it is built by you, not 'assembled' at your launch pad. So hoarding doesn't matter.

    G
     
    JamesNinelives and glider1 like this.
  17. th3f00l

    th3f00l Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Hi everyone, I'm new in the forum coments, but i playing Civ with this mod since last year. I ever come here looking for new updates and news about the game who I have so many hours played on steam. The people involved in this project are to be congratulated. So in the lastest beta versions I'm feeling some weird things, is about the air units. I have a mod what I can promote units with fully promotions, and when a air units try defeat a land units or naval units who have all promotions available on the game, the air unit will always lost. I don't remember how much damage they do (air units), but is low and the land unit or naval unit does more than half of health (air unit) means if the air unit attack twice in a row, his will be destroyer by land units or naval. Does not matter which air units we talking about (heavy bomber, bomber, steath bomber, jet fighter, triplane...) my question is: The airs units don't need be more powerful against land units and naval, is it more effective in ocean battles between superpowers that have a giant navy and aircraft carrier?
    Like the WW2 when USA and Japan fought; aircraft carriers, battleships and planes were decisive for a strategy.

    This is a questioning just for understanding how the airs units fight against the others in current beta updates. Pardon my english i not native and working on it.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,623
    So there are 2 areas of damage for air units:

    1) Air Defense: So when you attack a city or unit, your air unit will take damage based on that's unit air defense. Most units don't have a lot of air defense (the anti-air units, and units like destroyers do)...so you shouldn't take a lot of damage form attacking units. Cities do get a lot of air defense, and will do a lot of damage.

    2) Interception: Probably what you are experiencing is interception. Your unit is getting intercepted, which will do 50ish damage in many cases. Check your combat screen and it will show you how many interceptors are in the area (very important note: if an intercepting unit is in the fog of war you won't see the interception on the combat screen....this is the most common cause of "my plane just suddenly died, what happened".

    Ultimately if you are confident there are not interceptors in the area, you should be able to attack units freely with minimal damage. If you are fearful of interception, just ensure you always have 70 hp on your unit (otherwise, just heal them). This will ensure they survive even if they are intercepted. Ultimately air units are great finishers, able to kill wounded units that nothing else can reach. If you are careful with them, they are very powerful.
     
    th3f00l, Bromar1 and JamesNinelives like this.
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,599
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I've definitely been asked for a defensive pact in this beta (also as Indonesia, lol). I think I was at or even over my supply cap though
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,623
    Holy Crap....just got hit with 2 barbarians on Turn 11. Hehe I had just finished my monument let alone any defenses. Time for a reset!
     

Share This Page