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New Beta Version - Feb. 9th (2-9)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    My issue with this most recent version is that it pulls the rug out from what I had thought were dependable rules of balance that I had trusted as resolved in order to do my own modding.

    archers have been 2 range for 11 years. Bows and arrows were largely been unchanged as a technology for 6000 years, yet we’re getting all these ridiculous assertions that 1 range archers are not only better for balance, but more realistic too. This is made even more comical by composite bows retaining their 2 range, as if composite bows shoot further as a rule. this change to 1 range makes the unit more similar to chariots, and unambiguously worse in comparison in all situations.

    I see no justification for why archers should bear the brunt of a change in the tangentially related city defense mechanic. Further, I see no reason why I should pretend to be happy about the work that has been made for me.

    Thousands upon thousands of games have been play tested with 2 range archers. I don’t think the changes have succeeded in making archers balanced or fun, and if I can’t rely on certain things as basic as this to stay consistent then I will follow Enginseer’s example and take my leave.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
    Tekamthi likes this.
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Enginseer’s death has been greatly exaggerated.

    edit: also threatening to leave a voluntary project over beta testing is like, the lamest threat ever. Come on, man.

    G
     
    Hinin and JamesNinelives like this.
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    youre right. Catching up with changes other people make instead of making new things and doing things I want to do with my free time has left me feeling rather pathetic. Of the two option I think staying is the more lame of the two options.

    have fun all!
     
  4. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    We may have our differences, and you already called me a lot, fine, but don't call me a liar. It's that what you have said, what others interpret out of your words isn't my fault.

    And I think I am one of the last you can insinuate not being objective in critics. I've made already 3 times comparisons between rarionalism/Imperialism, I've accepted the critics about my last attempt and mostly negate the critic from stalker0/crazyG(?) by simulate tradition play instead wide warmonger, with a similar result.
    I pointed you in one version to the AI issue, not being able to settle cities correctly before turn 80, after I've watched several AI game starts. I've showed 2 times by real game saves, that late game, the yields from citizens and specialists diminish extremly in comparison with instant yields and diverse other sources.

    Of course, none have invested as much time and effort into this mod than you, Iam very thankful for this, but you shouldn't insult active contributors to the community, not having invested anything to the game.
     
    Maxxim69 likes this.
  5. Crag Hack

    Crag Hack Warlord

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    Doesnt seem to be easy version. I see AI is doing well. Is spreading their cities nice and improving their tiles. Even on Emperor I am not the leader but 3rd or 4th place.

    One thing I am not sure what to make of is I always am in a lot of excess happiness. I had more trouble with happiness in vanilla. As if happiness is not a factor anymore
     
  6. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    headdesk

    You know, I see where you're coming from. I'm certainly frustrated with this thread in general, and I don't enjoy conflict.
     
  7. Crag Hack

    Crag Hack Warlord

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    Do you feel like happiness is a dump stat ? I dont even pay attention to it, is always high above in excess. I rather pay attention to culture and faith and the military cap much more critical. As if happiness takes care of itself on autopilot. Maybe such is the goal ?
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    You’re getting quite bent out of shape over a beta. Take a breather, come back in a bit. No need for irrational actions. We’re adults.

    G
     
    Hinin, cerk, vyyt and 2 others like this.
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    you’re literally saying that I’ve said things which I’ve never said, and building arguments upon them. Bad faith?

    I listen to all feedback, even if I don’t like it. But sweeping generalizations and personal attacks on me just aren’t helpful.

    G
     
    Recursive, Zuizgond, vyyt and 3 others like this.
  10. Crag Hack

    Crag Hack Warlord

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    I remember there was one version in which happiness was quite complicated. It was based on an idea that there was a global ranking for each productivity and if your median was way below those global averages you get penalties to happiness. This made me think which tiles I want to work to minimize this handicap.

    Currently is seems like doesn't matter and the system has been scrapped. Maybe was overly complicated and that was the goal.
     
  11. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    After taking some time to think about this, I was going to write a much longer and unnecessary reply but that would be a waste of time as this is going to be my last post on this forum.

    I have demonstrated multiple and repeated attempts at misrepresentation, straw-manning as well as other fallacies on your part; in some instances you misrepresent my position, while in the very next sentence showing that you do, in fact, understand it correctly. If you wish to claim that these are all accidents then so be it, but it is beside the point, as fallacies and misrepresentations should be pointed out no matter if they are intentional or not.
    I will concede that I was getting tired of being dogpiled with the same nonsense over and over again ("weird" how your own advice of encouraging people of different opinions to speak up doesn't apply, again, to your own behavior...gaslighting at its finest), and who knows, maybe that nonsense was indeed written in haste while half-drunk or something, but yes, my replies were getting heated and the commie-reference was unnecessary, albeit factually correct, as your philosophical position (relativism) is indeed the same as the position of such people; if you don't like those comparisons then maybe you should change your position.

    More importantly, however, I was struck by the recognition of a pattern of behavior that used to be far more prevalent in my surroundings just a few years ago before I slowly began changing them, which has probably sensitized me toward it due to not being constantly exposed to it anymore.
    And just as I have removed this influence from my physical environment like drawing a poison, I shall do the same in the virtual realm; I have already been getting rid of one bad habit after the next over the last 5 years and uninstalling one computer game after the next over the last 2, with Civ 5 being the last remaining since late 2019, so this seems like a perfect moment for me to take this last step, which was inevitable anyway. I want you and everyone else to know, however, that I do not part in anger or that this is some kind of "revenge"; in fact, I want to thank Gazebo and all others for tolerating my sometimes stubborn and immoral behavior and especially those members of this forum, who are of the lefty / liberal persuasion for helping drive me, with your bad example, further in the opposite direction and finally toward God. I also want to apologize for any undue insult or mischaracterization that I myself have committed and the occasional drama that I have admittedly participated in. Mea culpa.

    Most of all, I apologize to a very talented artist / modder, with whom I was collaborating on a project together, that now will need to be finished without my help, though I have the fullest confidence that it will be accomplished nonetheless.

    With respect to the two small mods I was managing: I was going to delete my account, assuming that my posts would remain as guest posts, and put those resources in this post while deleting their pages, so that someone else can put them up and maintain them in the future. Alas, it seems that not only is it not possible to delete resources, but accounts cannot be deleted, either, which is quite funny, as it would seem that it forces me to either not really leave this forum (which, I suppose, has the purpose of drawing me back in to playing childish games instead of taking on more responsibility in life) or behave like a child, trying to wreck this forum, so I get perma-banned by the moderators. I shall opt for neither and simply change my password to a randomly-generated sequence. You'll have to live with the "ghost-pages" remaining in the Mods Repo or get the moderators to delete them while putting up replacements. I give my full permission to anyone who is so inclined to take over management of PFEUI4VP and CGP4VP and make any modifications you like. Lastly, I was working on an update to PFEUI4VP, because UnitPanel.lua has seen a small update in VP and is present in that mod, as well; in the course of this I actually wrote a small program that allowed me to data-mine literally every mod in the Mods Repository to check for promotions that I have not yet considered for inclusion in PFEUI4VP; obviously I won't be finishing this work now, but I will leave attached to this post the WIP PFEUI4VP 3.1, as well as the list of promotions that are yet to be handled, in a spoiler at the end of this post for anyone who wants to kill some time finishing that work.

    Goodbye and God bless.



    Spoiler promolist :
    PROMOTION_DECISIONS_MOROCCOBLACKGUAR
    PROMOTION_DECISIONS_HUNSRECURVEBOW
    PROMOTION_MALEVOLENCE
    PROMOTION_DMS_BOLAS
    PROMOTION_ATLAS
    PROMOTION_DMS_BOLAS_HIT
    PROMOTION_DMS_TEHUELCHE_AFTERRANDOM
    PROMOTION_DAMASCUS
    PROMOTION_MILLAU
    PROMOTION_WHITESANDS
    PROMOTION_STORMTROOPER
    PROMOTION_ROYALCANADIANMOUNTIES
    PROMOTION_PORTAGE
    PROMOTION_CLCOLONIALCAPITALISM
    PROMOTION_JFD_SNOW_IMMUNITY
    PROMOTION_FURTRADE
    PROMOTION_UNIT_PHILIPPINES_SWIVEL_GUN
    PROMOTION_UNIT_PHILIPPINES_BANGKA
    PROMOTION_UNIT_PHILIPPINES_BALANGAY
    PROMOTION_JFD_KATIPUNAN
    PROMOTION_SECRET_SOCIETY
    PROMOTION_UNIT_PHILIPPINES_KATIPON
    PROMOTION_UNIT_PHILIPPINES_KAWAL
    PROMOTION_UNIT_PHILIPPINES_BAYANI
    PROMOTION_CLFBNOOW
    PROMOTION_CLFBYAAMOVE
    PROMOTION_JAR_GHURKA
    PROMOTION_SEE_INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE
    PROMOTION_INVISIBLE_SUBMARINE
    PROMOTION_MISSILE_CRUISER
    PROMOTION_CARGO_EXTRA2
    PROMOTION_LIGHT_COVER
    PROMOTION_CARGO_EXTRA4
    PROMOTION_CARGO_EXTRA6
    PROMOTION_SKILLFUL01
    PROMOTION_SKILLFUL02
    PROMOTION_SKILLFUL03
    PROMOTION_LETHALITY
    PROMOTION_KIANG_CRIMEA_GREIL_MERC
    PROMOTION_MYSTIC_VISION
    PROMOTION_MYSTIC_VISION_ACTIVE
    PROMOTION_NOSFERATU
    PROMOTION_STEPPE_HUNTER
    PROMOTION_DELIVERANCE_SPIRIT_1
    PROMOTION_DELIVERANCE_SPIRIT_2
    PROMOTION_DELIVERANCE_SPIRIT_3
    PROMOTION_DELIVERANCE_SPIRIT_4
    PROMOTION_DELIVERANCE_SPIRIT_5
    PROMOTION_VL_POTENTIAL
    PROMOTION_VL_APTITUDE
    PROMOTION_VL_CLERIC
    PROMOTION_VL_MERC
    PROMOTION_VL_MAGE
    PROMOTION_VL_PEGA
    PROMOTION_VL_SOLDIER
    PROMOTION_VL_CAV
    PROMOTION_SLOW_BURN_1
    PROMOTION_SLOW_BURN_2
    PROMOTION_SLOW_BURN_3
    PROMOTION_SLOW_BURN_4
    PROMOTION_SLOW_BURN_5
    PROMOTION_SLOW_BURN_6
    PROMOTION_SLOW_BURN
    PROMOTION_RENEWAL
    PROMOTION_PEGASUS_KNIGHT_PROMO
    PROMOTION_GALEFORCE
    PROMOTION_GALEFORCE_ACTIVE
    PROMOTION_INDUSTRY_WOODPECKER
    PROMOTION_DEXTERITY_HORSE
    PROMOTION_SERENITY_OX
    PROMOTION_STURDINESS_BUFFALO
    PROMOTION_BALANCE_GOAT
    PROMOTION_ELUSIVENESS_DEER
    PROMOTION_MAJESTY_ELEPHANT
    PROMOTION_SOLIDARITY_WOLF
    PROMOTION_FURY_BOAR
    PROMOTION_DEVOTIO_MARTEM
    PROMOTION_DUX_CIVITATIS
    PROMOTION_SACRATUS
    PROMOTION_FIRSTSACRATUS
    PROMOTION_JFD_DESERT_IMMUNITY
    PROMOTION_JFD_DISEASE_IMMUNITY
    PROMOTION_JFD_JUNGLE_IMMUNITY
    PROMOTION_JFD_SCUVRY_IMMUNITY
    PROMOTION_DECISIONS_VEREHIA
    PROMOTION_EXTRA_SIGHT_I
    PROMOTION_RIVAL_TERRITORY
    PROMOTION_OCEAN_MOVEMENT
    PROMOTION_UE_SUN_NEVER_SETS
    PROMOTION_JFD_FIRST_RATE_DEFENSE
    PROMOTION_JFD_PEKING_FORCE
    PROMOTION_MEIJI_IMPERIAL_SHRINE
    PROMOTION_JFD_MIKASA
    PROMOTION_MEIJI_IKKO_IKKI
    PROMOTION_MEIJI_SATSUMA_REBELLION
    PROMOTION_JFD_DAIMYO_INACTIVE
    PROMOTION_JFD_DAIMYO_ACTIVE
    PROMOTION_TOJO_IMPERIAL_SHRINE
    PROMOTION_EMPIRE_OF_THE_PACIFIC
    PROMOTION_JFD_YAMATO
    PROMOTION_JFD_KAGERO
    PROMOTION_JFD_KANTAI_KESSEN
    PROMOTION_JFD_IMPERIAL_AIR_SERVICES
    PROMOTION_PRUSSIAN_GOOSESTEP
    PROMOTION_JFD_DEATHS_HEAD
    PROMOTION_PRUSSIAN_DISCIPLINE
    PROMOTION_JFD_LANDWEHR_DOUBLE
    PROMOTION_JFD_ARMS_FACTORY
    PROMOTION_JFD_MUSTANG
    PROMOTION_JFD_SUPPORTED_BY_MUSTANG
    PROMOTION_JFD_DISGRUNTLED_VETERANS
    PROMOTION_JFD_VLADIMIR
    PROMOTION_JFD_VLADIMIR_WRITER
    PROMOTION_JFD_VLADIMIR_SUZDAL
    PROMOTION_JFD_VLADIMIR_SUZDAL_WRITER
    PROMOTION_JFD_HERALD
    PROMOTION_JFD_JEZAILCHI
    PROMOTION_JFD_BLITZ
    PROMOTION_JFD_PANZER
    PROMOTION_JFD_FRIENDLY_LANDS
    PROMOTION_JFD_GERMAN_BARB
    PROMOTION_JFD_GERMAN_CIVILISED_BARB
    PROMOTION_JFD_SLAGANZ
    PROMOTION_JFD_SLAGANZ_INFO
    PROMOTION_JFD_GERMANS_SUEBI_KNOT
    PROMOTION_JFD_GERMANS
    PROMOTION_JFD_ATEN
    PROMOTION_JFD_KHOPESH
    PROMOTION_JFD_KHOPESH_DOUBLE
    PROMOTION_DECISIONS_JFD_NUNZIATELLA
    PROMOTION_JFD_SWISS_GUARD
    PROMOTION_JFD_PAPAL_STATES_UE_HOLY_LEAGUE
    PROMOTION_JFD_FORTIFIED_CHURCH
    PROMOTION_JFD_LEFEGII
    PROMOTION_JFD_LEFEGII_HEAL
    PROMOTION_JFD_LEFEGII_HEAL_ACTIVE
    PROMOTION_JFD_IOWA
    PROMOTION_TEMPLE_GUARD
    PROMOTION_NUBIA_TASETI
    PROMOTION_MC_APEDEMAK_RIVER
    PROMOTION_MACEDON_ATLAS
    PROMOTION_MC_WORLDS_END_1
    PROMOTION_MC_HAMMER_AND_ANVIL
    PROMOTION_MC_WORLDS_END_2
    PROMOTION_MC_WORLDS_END_3
    PROMOTION_MC_WORLDS_END_4
    PROMOTION_MC_WORLDS_END_5
    PROMOTION_MC_WORLDS_END_6
    PROMOTION_DECISIONS_GREECEPHALANX
    PROMOTION_MC_ATHENS_ORACLE_DUMMMY
    PROMOTION_CAIRO
    PROMOTION_AES_HOSTILITY
    PROMOTION_UE_WINGED_VALOR
    PROMOTION_UE_VIENNA_RELIEF
    PROMOTION_UE_RURALES
    PROMOTION_UE_DEUS_VEULT
    PROMOTION_UE_MOUNTAIN_TACTICS
    PROMOTION_UE_PIRATE_SLAVER
    PROMOTION_UE_BAGPIPES
    PROMOTION_UE_JIHAD
    PROMOTION_UE_MOURNING
    PROMOTION_UE_TURTLE_SHELL
    PROMOTION_UE_INCORPORATE
    PROMOTION_UE_ALPINI
    PROMOTION_UE_COUNTING_COUP
    PROMOTION_UE_SOFA
    PROMOTION_UE_IBERIAN_FERVOR
    PROMOTION_RIGHTEOUSNESS_UE
    PROMOTION_RENAISSANCE_UE
    PROMOTION_CEREMONIAL_BURIAL
    PROMOTION_BLOOD_WARRIOR
    PROMOTION_MANDATE
    PROMOTION_HEREDITARYRULE
    PROMOTION_DEUSVULT
    PROMOTION_MIRACLE_OF_DARNA
    PROMOTION_STATUE_OF_ZEUS
    PROMOTION_FERAL_LAGUZ
    PROMOTION_FA_SEA_ACADEMY
    PROMOTION_KHMER_BOKATOR
    PROMOTION_KHMER_WORKERDUMMY
    PROMOTION_VULTURE_MOD_RIVERMOVEMENT_II
    PROMOTION_VULTURE_MOD_RIVERMOVEMENT
    PROMOTION_WOODSMAN
    PROMOTION_MOD_XP_BONUS
    PROMOTION_FOOD_ON_KILL
    PROMOTION_BONUS_VS_MELEE
    PROMOTION_JFD_SCURVY_IMMUNITY
    PROMOTION_BAT_HERO
    PROMOTION_STURM
    PROMOTION_UBOAT
    PROMOTION_EXPERIMENTATION
    PROMOTION_MIZZIUM_MORTARS
    PROMOTION_GIGADROWSE
    PROMOTION_ELECTROLYZE
    PROMOTION_CYCLONIC_RIFT
    PROMOTION_GIGADROWSE_STATUS
    PROMOTION_ELECTROLYZE_STATUS
    PROMOTION_IMMOBILE_WHILE_DAMAGED
    PROMOTION_GHAZI
    PROMOTION_LS_HRE_RAID
    PROMOTION_LS_REITER_COUNTERSTRIKE
    PROMOTION_HRE_LS_RANGE
    PROMOTION_LS_PRUSSIA_SIEGE_OFF
    PROMOTION_LS_PRUSSIA_SIEGE_ON
    PROMOTION_LS_PRUSSIA_ARMY
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Crag Hack

    Crag Hack Warlord

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    That old system was a novel one because it made you compete with the AI not just geographically and with wars but also compete economically. No matter in war or peace, you cannot afford to fall way behind the global medians for gold, for food, and for shield.

    If for example the majority of my unhappiness was due to lacking in food production to the global median, that forced me to seek ways to increase my food output and sometimes even scrap very nice tiles and switch to food to close this gap. And the same principle applied not just to food, but even to gold and shields, religion, culture. It was something like that and I liked it that way.

    Certainly policies existed and building also helped close gaps but you also had to pay attention to your tiles.

    This way if some Civ went too aggressive on gold and neglect food, that Civ gets handicaps until it balances its output. This way nobody could snowball as you get penalized the more you snowballing in a particular output, like science, without advancing your food and gold.
     
    Skidizzle and youngsteve like this.
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Is there something in the air? What on earth is going on with folks in this thread? Case of the Mondays? Everyone needs to chill! Goodness.

    G
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think this is something worth testing in the AI vs AI games. Are there certain pantheons that seem to dominate founding over and over again? (probably remove civs like Ethopia, Spain, and India from these tests to rule out high early faith civs). If there are pantheons that just always win the faith race, I agree we should look at a faith tone down of those.
     
  15. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    sigh

    I don't think your departure is at all necessary, and I strongly believe you are blowing things way out of proportion. I don't hate you or have any malicious intent whatsoever.

    That being said, I do want to thank you for your contributions to the mod and the community, and I wish you the best of luck in your life's endeavors.

    Likewise to @pineappledan, although we haven't spoken much and your stated reason for departure is unrelated to me.
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Maybe I need a few months to go work on other projects. I spent all my free time for 3 straight days rolling out compatibility updates for this latest patch. That’s time I would rather spend making something new, or learning a new skill, or reading. I spend so much time reacting to a change, or pleading against further changes because it negatively affects both how I like to play and how much time I dedicate to just keeping my own things working. I mod now out of a twisted responsibility to make my stuff work for other people rather than out of genuine enthusiasm.

    I hate how I end up having petty conversations against anything changing, because the 4UC mod is affected by any pre-industrial balance change. I hate how small all these differences in opinion are, none of this matters. I don’t want to be this person having these conversations and I think it’s negatively affecting my offline life. So I need to go away for a while.
     
  17. yas1k

    yas1k Chieftain

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    playing with community patch only (last beta). After first turn game is crashed
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I did say wait and see how this shakes out! My WIP beta, hoping release tonight, Ive been testing all week, reverts Archers back to range 2.

    G
     
  19. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Prince

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    The old system favored / helped those who were already leading, and penalized those who were already "behind". For the sake of curbing snowballing and trying to "even the playfield", it was a reasonable call to change to the current system.
     
    vyyt, JamesNinelives and burleigh like this.
  20. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I think these overreactions are blinded by the fatigue of pouring so much time and dedication into something we all evidently love. By all means Dan, please take time away from the damn game to go enjoy yourself and forget worrying about all this stuff for a while.

    As for @civplayer33 and the account abandonment, I really think this was unnecessarily taken overboard, and I'm saddened by his stated departure, as his work was some of my favorite here on the forum. Supreme Leader urges you to reconsider these rash decisions, and take a breather before coming to these conclusions.
     

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