New Beta Version - Feb. 9th (2-9)

[Rekk]

But here is strange - each city has so called "luxury happiness". So when we add city happiness to arrive at the empire happiness, we basically are dual accounting the same luxuries for each city. This way if you spam many cities, you will be adding the same luxuries over and over for each city. Let's say I spam 15 cities and my empire has 5 luxuries, then my empire happiness will be the sum of 15*5=75 luxury happiness . Plus there will be some other non-luxury sources but the bulk comes from double counting, or 15-fold counting of each luxury.

Happiness from each unique luxury is combined into one pool, which is then split up among your cities. Any remainder (modulus) is divided out as well, prioritizing your earliest settled cities.
Assuming luxuries give 2 happiness each, if you have one luxury and 5 cities, only your first two cities will get one happiness each. If you have 7 unique luxuries and therefore 14 happiness, your first four cities gain 3 happiness and your fifth gains 2.
There is no double dipping going on. This method is used for "empire" happiness as well.

 

[Crag Hack]

Happiness from each unique luxury is combined into one pool, which is then split up among your cities. Any remainder (modulus) is divided out as well, prioritizing your earliest settled cities.
Assuming luxuries give 2 happiness each, if you have one luxury and 5 cities, only your first two cities will get one happiness each. If you have 7 unique luxuries and therefore 14 happiness, your first four cities gain 3 happiness and your fifth gains 2.
There is no double dipping going on. This method is used for "empire" happiness as well.

Can you explain more ? I will give you the stats

Has 6 luxuries (5 native +1 import). x2=12
Has 5 cities
The city luxury distribution is 4-3-3-4-4 (18 total)

Unless it is x3 per luxury ?

I think something more is going on because in-game wiki says luxuries are distributed per population. Not just per city. But still can't understand the 4-3-3-4-4 distribution how is derived.

 

[Gazebo]

G would have more formal data than my anecdotal experience, but I really think the answer is yes. If my neighbor is France with like God of Craftsmen I just assume he won't get a religion, and I can't recall guessing this wrong a single time. Assuming civs with equal early game, I can group the pantheons into "probably", "maybe", and "probably not" for the AI getting religion, and its pretty consistent on deity. Love ALWAYS gets a religion, sometimes a civ gets a turn 50 pantheon but still second religion using love. That would be my single biggest gripe, that pantheon is so hard for humans to use but AI do very well with it on any difficulty with a decent amount of initial bonus growth.

I'd be curious to see your categories for this.

Re: 'formal data,' God of War tends to be a winner, as well as Ancestor Worship. The terrain-dependent pantheons tend to do well except for the tundra and desert ones.

G

 

[CrazyG]

I'd be curious to see your categories for this.

Re: 'formal data,' God of War tends to be a winner, as well as Ancestor Worship. The terrain-dependent pantheons tend to do well except for the tundra and desert ones.

G

Ways the AI Gets a Religion (ignoring civs with very high bonus faith)

Spoiler If This Pantheon is Chosen, Almost Always A Religion :

Love
Commerce

Spoiler Probably Gets a Religion :

Ancestor Worship
ExpanseProtection
God King

Spoiler Sometimes Gets a Religion :

Springtime
Festivals
God of the Sea
Hunt
Fertility
Renewal
War (its very high faith but sometimes an AI takes it but stays at peace till turn 100)

Spoiler Rarely Gets a Religion :

Earth Mother
Lake and Marsh Pantheon
Craftsmen
Sun God
Spirit of the Desert
Tundra Pantheon
Open Sky
God of All Creation
Goddess of Nature

Wisdom is unranked because it is usually taken by Ethiopia or India in my games. I might have forgot one or two. The biggest difference compared to humans would be Love, Ancestor Worship, and God-King, which are all because the AI has bonuses to early growth. Generally I'd say Love is the worst pantheon for humans but on Deity whatever civ gets it often beats Ethiopia or India to a religion.

 

[Rekk]

Can you explain more ? I will give you the stats

Has 6 luxuries (5 native +1 import). x2=12
Has 5 cities
The city luxury distribution is 4-3-3-4-4 (18 total)

Unless it is x3 per luxury ?

I think something more is going on because in-game wiki says luxuries are distributed per population. Not just per city. But still can't understand the 4-3-3-4-4 distribution how is derived.

What are the populations in your cities? The remainder split has probably been changed to favor cities that have your highest populations, and the luxuries give 3 happiness each.

My guess is that your 1st, 4th and 5th cities have higher populations than your 2nd and 3rd.

 

[Crag Hack]

I am looking at LuxuryHappiness.sql and it says

-- resources give two happiness each
UPDATE Resources
SET Happiness = '2'

Okay. But 4-3-3-4-4 happiness distribution just doesn't work with 2. Has the happiness per resource been changed to 3 ? Then it works and 6 resources can be fitted into 5 cities per 4-3-3-4-4.

And why does wiki in-game states that "your happiness from luxury will grow as your population increases" ? That is not possible and total happiness cannot exceed the initial conditions, be it 3 per luxury or 2 per luxury. All you can do is apportion the total happiness into each city per the number of citizen it has in it. Your happiness from luxury in the empire cannot grow as your population grows without more luxuries discovered or imported. Only cities can grow in such manner, but not unlimited, only in relation to how big the city is to the empire.

And even this does not function well according to the in-game descriptions. Because my capital has 15 citizens, or 31.25% of the empire, accordingly the happiness from luxury should be 5.625 (in 3/lux rule) while the empire is distributed as 4-3-3-4-4. Where does this math come from ? The correct distribution should be 5.625-3-3.375-2.625-3.375.

The global happiness from luxury works only with 3/lux rule, but the city distribution is off individually (although it aggregates correctly to the global). With a 2/lux rule neither the global works correctly, nor the individual cities work correctly as shown in the UI. Don't know how much you trust the UI by the way.

 

[Crag Hack]

What are the populations in your cities? The remainder split has probably been changed to favor cities that have your highest populations, and the luxuries give 3 happiness each.

My guess is that your 1st, 4th and 5th cities have higher populations than your 2nd and 3rd.

My city populations are as follows

15-8-9-7-9 (don't remember in which order but most likely this order)

If you click on the capital and enter inside it and then start scrolling to the right to the next city, and keep on this order to the right, I believe the game moves to the next city according to their order built. So in such case it is as said above

 

[SolutionIt]

Ways the AI Gets a Religion (ignoring civs with very high bonus faith)

Spoiler If This Pantheon is Chosen, Almost Always A Religion :

Love
Commerce

Spoiler Probably Gets a Religion :

Ancestor Worship
ExpanseProtection
God King

Spoiler Sometimes Gets a Religion :

Springtime
Festivals
God of the Sea
Hunt
Fertility
Renewal
War (its very high faith but sometimes an AI takes it but stays at peace till turn 100)

Spoiler Rarely Gets a Religion :

Earth Mother
Lake and Marsh Pantheon
Craftsmen
Sun God
Spirit of the Desert
Tundra Pantheon
Open Sky
God of All Creation
Goddess of Nature

Wisdom is unranked because it is usually taken by Ethiopia or India in my games. I might have forgot one or two. The biggest difference compared to humans would be Love, Ancestor Worship, and God-King, which are all because the AI has bonuses to early growth. Generally I'd say Love is the worst pantheon for humans but on Deity whatever civ gets it often beats Ethiopia or India to a religion.

I don't know if this is just a me thing but does anyone ever find a good reason to rush construction unless they actually have stone/quarry luxs near them? Also I see how God of Craftsmen usually struggles with that despite the amazing yields it gives in the faith and culture, but I don't know if that has to do with construction just not being a good ancient era tech to rush (from the way i see it anyway).

For some of the other pantheons in the category rarely gets a religion it is pretty obvious why that is the case though, it tends to be more niche situations. The only one I don't see that being the case for is Earth Mother, doesn't that give faith to all resources on mines?

Unrelated to my point but thought i should say it anyway: You start with copper nearby and pop that pantheon on and you're well on your way to winning a game quick since it gives off a lot of prod, and also helps other less production intensive resources like gold get more use.

Edit: I think i might be confusing god of craftsmen yields with something else. Pardon me if i am.

 

[Rekk]

And why does wiki in-game states that "your happiness from luxury will grow as your population increases" ? That is not possible and total happiness cannot exceed the initial conditions, be it 3 per luxury or 2 per luxury.

At one point, luxury happiness absolutely DID grow with population. It's still possible that it does, or the in-game wiki is outdated.

The distribution is not proportional to population. It is supplying each city evenly, then dividing up the remainder by some metric. Likely population, although I don't know why your fourth city is getting one.

What is your unhappiness in each city?

 

[Crag Hack]

At one point, luxury happiness absolutely DID grow with population. It's still possible that it does, or the in-game wiki is outdated.

The distribution is not proportional to population. It is supplying each city evenly, then dividing up the remainder by some metric. Likely population, although I don't know why your fourth city is getting one.

What is your unhappiness in each city?

I think unhappiness is irrelevant about luxury happiness but here it is 3-2-2-3-1

And yes the in-game wiki says like this "the higher your pop, the more happiness your luxuries provide". This is probably from some old version with very different happiness system.

 

[Crag Hack]

At one point, luxury happiness absolutely DID grow with population. It's still possible that it does, or the in-game wiki is outdated.

The distribution is not proportional to population. It is supplying each city evenly, then dividing up the remainder by some metric. Likely population, although I don't know why your fourth city is getting one.

What is your unhappiness in each city?

Ah sorry, the population is 14-8-8-9-7. I clicked one turn ahead in the previous example and 3 cities grew the next turn. And the correct order is this. But still doesn't work, still cannot arrive at 4-3-3-4-4

 

[Crag Hack]

According to me this is how happiness from luxury works

1. Population has no effect here. The in-game wiki must be old from a different version. Population weights are not used at all currently (probably to avoid long integers and rounding issues)
2. The happiness from luxury is 3. It is not 2.
3. The happiness is distributed into each city according to its absolute size. Incorrectly is believed that they are assigned according to the order the city is built.

So here how it works with example

6 luxuries give total 18 happiness. The game now proceeds to distribute these 18 points into 5 cities. It starts with the biggest city and assigns singletons to it. Then proceeds to the next biggest city and assigns another singleton to it. It continues the process to the last city by size and then if there are any unassigned left happiness points it repeats the same from the biggest city again. This way the correct distribution from biggest city to smallest city becomes 4-4-4-3-3.

This system is okay and does not discriminate wide from tall empires.

Duh finally solved it

 

[JamesNinelives]

Do you feel like happiness is a dump stat ? I dont even pay attention to it, is always high above in excess. I rather pay attention to culture and faith and the military cap much more critical. As if happiness takes care of itself on autopilot. Maybe such is the goal ?

Happiness was intended to take a back seat, per our discussions on the subject in the patches where it was adjusted. It's something you can benefit from investing in if you want to (and I do), and which needs to be accounted for it you are warmongers (which seems to be working) but otherwise should not be a top priority . At least, that's how I understand the design goals expressed at the time.

Is there something in the air? What on earth is going on with folks in this thread? Case of the Mondays? Everyone needs to chill! Goodness.
G

The world (the world outside these forums) is in flux at the moment. Many things are changing, or have changed already. Perhaps for the better (I hope), but none of us can really tell the future. This creates stress, and I believe this stress is filtering through each of our lives into our interactions in these forums. People are tired. Some are scared (I know I am). Life is... challenging for all of us in different ways.

I prescribe everyone some goddamn kitten time and a good stiff drink of the brown liquor of your choice.

Nya! :3
I am very much enjoying my chocolate milk, thank you!

Can't say what's going on, but I'm witnessing this same things in other forums I am following. People are eager for a change. People take on personal attacks (nothing new) but suddenly they are getting tired of trying to be polite. People just getting angry and leaving is a trend everywhere.

Indeed. Love to you all <3. That includes you Bite! And you pineappledan, and you civplayer33.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't know if this is just a me thing but does anyone ever find a good reason to rush construction unless they actually have stone/quarry luxs near them? Also I see how God of Craftsmen usually struggles with that despite the amazing yields it gives in the faith and culture, but I don't know if that has to do with construction just not being a good ancient era tech to rush (from the way i see it anyway).

If you start with marble and jade, try taking tradition, and rushing construction to build mausoleum of halicarnassus. You get a very high production city very quickly, its good for building other wonders like hanging gardens. Its good on Lapis Lazuli or Amber too, but less good because the stone works doesn't actually buff those resources.

Unrelated to my point but thought i should say it anyway: You start with copper nearby and pop that pantheon on and you're well on your way to winning a game quick since it gives off a lot of prod, and also helps other less production intensive resources like gold get more use.

Earth Mother used to be 1 gold, 1 faith on mines with resources, and 1 production per 3 citizens. This was generally considered overall a bad pantheon (even though long term it has potential). At some point, 1 faith for iron (so 2 total if mined) was added and people still didn't really like it.

My experience was the AI rarely takes, and rarely gets a religion if they do. That post was just how often the AI gets a religion with X pantheon. I don't think it'll happen much more often with the new earth mother, it now gets 2 faith per iron, the difference seems small to me. In terms of non-faith yields, its amazing though. Now that it gives culture and way more production, I haven't seen the AI pick it because I'm been claiming it for myself

 

[tu_79]

According to me this is how happiness from luxury works

1. Population has no effect here. The in-game wiki must be old from a different version. Population weights are not used at all currently (probably to avoid long integers and rounding issues)
2. The happiness from luxury is 3. It is not 2.
3. The happiness is distributed into each city according to its absolute size. Incorrectly is believed that they are assigned according to the order the city is built.

So here how it works with example

6 luxuries give total 18 happiness. The game now proceeds to distribute these 18 points into 5 cities. It starts with the biggest city and assigns singletons to it. Then proceeds to the next biggest city and assigns another singleton to it. It continues the process to the last city by size and then if there are any unassigned left happiness points it repeats the same from the biggest city again. This way the correct distribution from biggest city to smallest city becomes 4-4-4-3-3.

This system is okay and does not discriminate wide from tall empires.

Duh finally solved it

I thought there's a guide on happiness explaining all this.
Congratulations, you've found a bug in the civilopedia text. Care to open a ticket in Github so devs fix it?

By the way, happiness increasing on population worked quite well, it was indeed very proportional and scaled well. But it was obscure. People had difficulty to predict how much happiness they could gain exactly, so it was changed to something more simple, adjusted several times until it worked the way we expected.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I don't know if this is just a me thing but does anyone ever find a good reason to rush construction unless they actually have stone/quarry luxs near them?

I never rush construction mainly because the civs/settings I play favour Calender, Military Theory or Fishing. I always take Construction before Trade though, unless I'm next to Sugar or Spices. Construction is needed to get to Mathematics, which is a go-to tech IMO .

 

[youngsteve]

See the Ancient archers with range 2 are way too strong. You know you can even take whole cities with a bunch of them. Those were stone Castles you cannot take them with wooden arrows. All your arrows would get smashed at the Castle walls. But yet this huge range of theirs allows for such exploits.

On the other hand have you tried to take a modern city in Civ5 with Light Tanks ? Forget it, you need the heavy artillery for that.

So let's treat archers equally, if one can take whole castles, let the other take whole cities too.

This is my complaint, & I just cannot understand why anyone would want to have such a blatant advantage in a balanced game.

Ignore the realism, when no time in history did a unit of archers bring down a city, & could have been firing at the walls for 1000's of years without scratching them, but concentrate on the gameplay. How can it be balanced when units of super human archers can bring down a city without a scratch. Been decimated if got within range in reality. The problem isn't the range of archer units, but the fact they can bring down a city at all. Either stop them completely doing this or have them say -90% reduction when attacking walls. I have no problem with them attacking units in city, but not damaging the city. Melee & siege units should be for bringing down cites, whilst range & mounted ones are more to doing damage to units.

This exploit is far worse than the horseman rush bringing down cities that came out when Civ 5 was released in late 2010, & was subsequently changed in the first major patch after outrage of the exploit.

 

[AndreyK]

This is my complaint, & I just cannot understand why anyone would want to have such a blatant advantage in a balanced game.

Ignore the realism, when no time in history did a unit of archers bring down a city, & could have been firing at the walls for 1000's of years without scratching them, but concentrate on the gameplay. How can it be balanced when units of super human archers can bring down a city without a scratch. Been decimated if got within range in reality. The problem isn't the range of archer units, but the fact they can bring down a city at all. Either stop them completely doing this or have them say -90% reduction when attacking walls. I have no problem with them attacking units in city, but not damaging the city. Melee & siege units should be for bringing down cites, whilst range & mounted ones are more to doing damage to units.

This exploit is far worse than the horseman rush bringing down cities that came out when Civ 5 was released in late 2010, & was subsequently changed in the first major patch after outrage of the exploit.

Firing at the walls? Archer rush works before cities get walls. I think that in Ancient times if you had no ranged weapons you better not aproach cities at all, because you will be dead before than you can breach them.
Usually at those times attacking side had to starve defenders by siege, if they had defensible walls.

 

[Gizmoman]

This is going to sound extremely random, and I don't have any proof of this just 7 played games with my word.
Anyways, in this latest version I have yet to have a defensive spy catch an enemy spy at all, I've had a level 1 spy sitting in my capital from the dawn of renaissance throughout the ages and despite constant tech-steals, gold-steals, assassinations and all that good stuff and the spy is still level 1.

 

[Rekk]

Population has no effect here.

It starts with the biggest city and assigns singletons to it. Then proceeds to the next biggest city and assigns another singleton to it. It continues the process to the last city by size and then if there are any unassigned left happiness points it repeats the same from the biggest city again

You literally just outlined how population does have an effect.