New Beta Version - June 9th (6/9)

[glider1]

I've also had some random patches of visibility I couldn't understand, with this and previous updates. I think they're related to mountains, but honestly I don't know. I'm talking about a 3-5 tile patch, not in any convenient hexagon shape, on another subcontinent.

I've had this lingering visibility too. I'll guess it is because of a bug to do with scout/explorer visibility that lingers after the scout has left the area. It can be a permanent window view into enemy territory sometimes. Random and rare.

 

[ElliotS]

Anyone else seeing AI going tradition really often? My current game has 1 progress, 0 authority and 6 tradition.

Also Siam is beating the entire world at literally everything. Turn 100 he has 59 population in just 5 cites, has 6 social policies while all others have 4 or 5, and is at 20 technologies. I'm Korea on an Amber monopoly and only have 16. Seems like too much to me

This is a huge overreaction to a single game lol. My games are not like that policy wise, and Siam in my current game is top three, going back and fourth with China and Me. (Rome.)

 

[CrazyG]

This is a huge overreaction to a single game lol. My games are not like that policy wise, and Siam in my current game is top three, going back and fourth with China and Me. (Rome.)

Asking a question is a huge overreaction?

 

[ElliotS]

Asking a question is a huge overreaction?

I was referring to:

Seems like too much to me

 

[CrazyG]

I was referring to:

Well I'm talking about Siam there, and his early game bonuses are really crazy, especially on Pangea.

 

[ElliotS]

Well I'm talking about Siam there, and his early game bonuses are really crazy, especially on Pangea.

I don't agree, and I think that a single game isn't enough to determine that. If you're talking about a number of games then it's not an overreaction, but still up for debate.

 

[Owlbebach]

Well I'm talking about Siam there, and his early game bonuses are really crazy, especially on Pangea.

My friend recently had Willi who was 4 policies ahead of every other deity AI and built 2/3 of world wonders, but that was only once, next two games he was awful even with a good start

 

[CrazyG]

My friend recently had Willi who was 4 policies ahead of every other deity AI and built 2/3 of world wonders, but that was only once, next two games he was awful even with a good start

I don't agree, and I think that a single game isn't enough to determine that. If you're talking about a number of games then it's not an overreaction, but still up for debate.

G had specifically stated he was considering dropping the base influence to 35, based on Siam's AI overperforming. I'm not talking about 1 game, he has led the world in 2 of 2 games he was in so far this beta. 2 games isn't that many, so if someone has experienced an actual counterexample please share. I don't see how Siam being in the top 3 refutes the idea at all (or William doing well?) In theory the beta culture changes would chill out his early game boosts, but I don't think it has done enough.

Nor was my tradition observation just one game, its been the most popular choice in 3 beta games so far. Hence why I asked, if others don't have the same experience I know I'm just seeing variance. It makes a lot of sense to me because progress looks really unappealing right now

 

[ElliotS]

G had specifically stated he was considering dropping the base influence to 35, based on Siam's AI overperforming. I'm not talking about 1 game, he has led the world in 2 of 2 games he was in so far this beta. 2 games isn't that many, so if someone has experienced an actual counterexample please share. I don't see how Siam being in the top 3 refutes the idea at all (or William doing well?) In theory the beta culture changes would chill out his early game boosts, but I don't think it has done enough.

Nor was my tradition observation just one game, its been the most popular choice in 3 beta games so far. Hence why I asked, if others don't have the same experience I know I'm just seeing variance. It makes a lot of sense to me because progress looks really unappealing right now

I'll make sure to include Siam in all of my games to help test. I'd suggest you do the same.

Also no. If anything I see more authority. Progress as always is normally picked extremely rarely. The buff to monuments was a start, but it's really bad. Even for an island start with tons of room and noone to contest I'll often choose authority. Progress just feels really weak given that it takes 4 policies to get a decent culture engine going. (Production and culture on buildings) Compared to authority who gets a new source of culture on 4/6 policies, and the first 3 especially. Tradition is also very good and consistent, but I like stabbing too much.

I'm not saying Progress needs to be given more sources of culture to homogenize, but I really think that changing the production policy to be a tier 1 and also a requirement for the city connection policy (So it's a Y.) would be a great start. Allowing you to get building culture online in 3 policies, and production online faster, would be a huge buff. If it's still under-performing after that we could look at it, but I think that might be enough on it's own.

 

[Legen]

In my current game, two neighbors went Authority (China, Carthage) and two went Progress (Ethiopia, Venice). The other continent was all Authority (Aztecs, Persia, Assyria). I didn't notice Tradition being particularly popular in previous games either, as far as I can remember.

About Progress culture, every policy is technically extra culture due to the scaler, but it is a weak addition per each additional policy. Maybe moving some of the culture of the scaler to the opener would be enough, but Gazebo had already mentioned experimenting with additional culture on trade routes.

 

[Jarula]

I have a bit of advice for Tradition Add +1 culture and +1 Food per city per policy. It would definitely balance it out. Or simply +1 culture in capital city per policy. or +1 culture per trade route per policy

 

[Jarula]

nope not quite. plus it stacks.

 

[Misaka]

I think with 4to perk of tradition, that buf monument, bath, garden, its very strong to add more than for me opinion i think unbalanced tradition, and progres is some weak in erly with cultural, but in midgame or late game, industrial era or more, progres its a very strong, for the scales per era, for the food and cultural constructin buileing, and the gold you obtain every worked will born, and tecnology resarch. Its dificult progres at start but after its prety strong, and tradiction, buff erlys and traeiction is more easy obtains first world wonder to easy with cultural and production. I only play tho or three games with authority, don't have enoug experience

 

[CrazyG]

In my current game, two neighbors went Authority (China, Carthage) and two went Progress (Ethiopia, Venice). The other continent was all Authority (Aztecs, Persia, Assyria). I didn't notice Tradition being particularly popular in previous games either, as far as I can remember.

About Progress culture, every policy is technically extra culture due to the scaler, but it is a weak addition per each additional policy. Maybe moving some of the culture of the scaler to the opener would be enough, but Gazebo had already mentioned experimenting with additional culture on trade routes.

Sounds like there might be a lack of progress, which would result in games being either mostly authority or mostly tradition.

I do think progress is lacking right now. It just feels like the first 2 policies do very little when I get them. I'd rather start Authority and mix it with progress than try to go full progress in the current state of things

I have a bit of advice for Tradition Add +1 culture and +1 Food per city per policy. It would definitely balance it out. Or simply +1 culture in capital city per policy. or +1 culture per trade route per policy

Tradition is a really good policy tree currently. Most of the beta's changes benefit it, especially some of the wonder changes. I don't see why it would need more culture

 

[Owlbebach]

I have a bit of advice for Tradition Add +1 culture and +1 Food per city per policy. It would definitely balance it out. Or simply +1 culture in capital city per policy. or +1 culture per trade route per policy

This would male Tradition absolutely imbalanced

I'll make sure to include Siam in all of my games to help test. I'd suggest you do the same.

Also no. If anything I see more authority. Progress as always is normally picked extremely rarely. The buff to monuments was a start, but it's really bad. Even for an island start with tons of room and noone to contest I'll often choose authority. Progress just feels really weak given that it takes 4 policies to get a decent culture engine going. (Production and culture on buildings) Compared to authority who gets a new source of culture on 4/6 policies, and the first 3 especially. Tradition is also very good and consistent, but I like stabbing too much.

I'm not saying Progress needs to be given more sources of culture to homogenize, but I really think that changing the production policy to be a tier 1 and also a requirement for the city connection policy (So it's a Y.) would be a great start. Allowing you to get building culture online in 3 policies, and production online faster, would be a huge buff. If it's still under-performing after that we could look at it, but I think that might be enough on it's own.

Progress really need something right now. As of now it is by far the weakest policy tree. On paper it should work good with lots of cities, but currently you start with BAD cities (compared to tradition and authority). With lack of production you can't build settlers fast. As result you end up in a ridiculous situation where: 1)Tradition is the fastest expander, has great capital, but all other citieas are bad; 2) Authority expands good, and with bonus productions all cities are great; 3) Progress expands A LOT slower that Tradition & Authority AND have bad cities

 

[ElliotS]

Progress really need something right now. As of now it is by far the weakest policy tree. On paper it should work good with lots of cities, but currently you start with BAD cities (compared to tradition and authority). With lack of production you can't build settlers fast. As result you end up in a ridiculous situation where: 1)Tradition is the fastest expander, has great capital, but all other citieas are bad; 2) Authority expands good, and with bonus productions all cities are great; 3) Progress expands A LOT slower that Tradition & Authority AND have bad cities

That's incorrect imo. First off it's an oversimplification of the branches, secondly I think authority expands much quicker than Tradition. I typically hit 8-12 cities founded in ancient-classical even on Deity with authority.

Progress is the best tree in the later portions of the game. When it come to buildings, authority's 6 production is nothing compared to 2+20% in later eras. And when it come to culture the massive amount from creating buildings later is much better than either other branch.

Progress expands slower but has the best cities come industrial.

The problem is surviving. Right now it's too weak, but not so weak that I think it needs more than a few small tweaks.

 

[PapaRockett]

I typically hit 8-12 cities founded in ancient-classical even on Deity with authority.

Off topic but how many cities is too many for Authority, or really, ANY policy branch? Obviously the costs go up with each one. I would've thought more than 10 is too hindering.

 

[CrazyG]

I think the problem for Progress is it had all its timing ruined by the changed policy costs. My capital grows so quickly for 20 turns, then stops/slows down right when I get bonus for growing it. There is a similar problem with the / for buildings.

 

[Jarula]

Maybe add culture whenever a city grows to Tradition scaling with Era...?
With progress perhaps increase the amount per policy by +5 per era.

Other thing I noticed Persia needs something. Even in Marathon games they aren't performing maybe its their ygaemp position.

 

[ElliotS]

I think the problem for Progress is it had all its timing ruined by the changed policy costs. My capital grows so quickly for 20 turns, then stops/slows down right when I get bonus for growing it. There is a similar problem with the / for buildings.

What if the opener worked retroactively? Maybe add a max so you can't get a great scientist in modern by opening progress.

Off topic but how many cities is too many for Authority, or really, ANY policy branch? Obviously the costs go up with each one. I would've thought more than 10 is too hindering.

It scales additivly, not multiplicativly. AKA if the city produces 10% of the BASE cost of the tech you're researching it covers itself.

So settling a bunch of cities very early tends to pay off quite nicely, and annexing good cities is normally a good idea. (The crappy ones you can leave as puppets or raze though.)