New Beta Version - March 14th (3-14)

[pineappledan]

This new rule set pretty much nukes the Huns, whose UA triggers excess war weariness in enemy empires, doesn’t it? If people are consistently neutralizing all happy/unhappy in their cities by zeroing needs and building happiness, how can that Hunnic weariness even impact anything?

 

[Gazebo]

I think it may be exploitive....at least at the Global Level. I wonder if Unhappy / Total Pop is the right ratio. Maybe we need to go Unhappy / Happy....and then adjust the ratios accordingly (50% should be "good", etc).

Just also noting...man I know the AI get tactical improvements, but I had no idea how good because lately I've been playing mostly passive games. Finally decided to do a little warfare....and I just got my butt handed to me. I gave up this this last game when I lost 4 units in a single turn. I am now scared to death to entry the AI's territory on Emperor...every unit I send it just gets mowed down like grass. So Kudos to the AI, I may have to go down a difficulty to survive these wars.

I thought about Unhappy/Happy, but that is just a reskin of the old happiness valuation model.

G

 

[Gazebo]

This new rule set pretty much nukes the Huns, whose UA triggers excess war weariness in enemy empires, doesn’t it? If people are consistently neutralizing all happy/unhappy in their cities by zeroing needs and building happiness, how can that Hunnic weariness even impact anything?

That's another option, we could allow the 'empire-wide' elements to supercede the population cap. So empire-wide luxuries, empire-wide war weariness, etc. could overflow the pop value. Food for thought.

G

 

[pineappledan]

RIP Huns: DNF.

Sounds good.

I have some very light tweaks in store for a v2 coming soon.

- luxury cap/scaler at empire level remains same (not changing it, though I mentioned I would)
- adding a 'local luxury' bonus for each city, +1 for each unique improved luxury around a city
- created a two-tier system for handicaps - one for capital and one for other cities. Currently, all 'other city' handicaps start at one - the capital is the only one that varies by handicap.
- slightly increased empire scaler to 10% (was 8%)
- Tradition opener - dropped +1 culture and reduced food to +2, and moved +1 happiness on Palace here (made it +2). So pop bump is now happiness-neutral.
- Future tech now applies +1 happiness to every city, was +10 to capital.
- Some UI tweaks

Lingering questions:
Is the happiness/unhappiness population cap a good or a bad thing? In other words, is it exploitative, or strategic?

G

doesnt a +1 per local luxury kinda make Indonesia/Brazil god-tier? The idea seems nice on paper, but the luxury system sort of relies on a law of diminishing returns.

That could result in an almost guaranteed 2 per Indonesian city if they settle densely enough

 

[Gazebo]

doesnt a +1 per local luxury kinda make Indonesia/Brazil god-tier? The idea seems nice on paper, but the luxury system sort of relies on a law of diminishing returns.

That could result in an almost guaranteed 2 per Indonesian city if they settle densely enough

If a single extra happiness per city makes you god-tier, I guess? The rewards aren’t that good...

G

 

[Enginseer]

My thoughts are that this new happiness system shouldn't be about getting your 100% approval rating, it should be just attempting to get a strong majority to not rebel against you... like this kind of model.

100% -> 66% Supermajority Approval Ratings. nothing really, you are doing a good job.
75% -> 50% Simple majority Approval Ratings. No city can benefit from positive happiness for growth
50% -> 33% Supermajority Opposition.
No city can benefit from positive happiness for growth. Cities receive a -33% Growth/Production Penalty. -10% Combat Penalty. Rebels can Spawn.
25% -> 20% Overwhelming Opposition.
No city can benefit from positive happiness for growth. Cities receive a -75% Growth/Production Penalty. -20% Combat Penalty. Rebels can Spawn. Cities can revolt.
0%: wtf is going on here. No city can benefit from positive happiness for growth. Cities receive a -100% Growth/-90% Production Penalty. -33% Combat Penalty. Rebels can Spawn. Cities can revolt.

Once you go above and beyond that approval rating of 66% then you can start experiencing a Golden Age much more easier. Right now it just seems silly for everybody to be going for that 100% approval rating because you're supposed to. It should reward players for going the extra mile in reaching above and beyond 66% happiness to 100% rather than forcing you to maintain a docile state.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

My thoughts are that this new happiness system shouldn't be about getting your 100% approval rating, it should be just attempting to get a strong majority to not rebel against you... like this kind of model.

100% -> 66% Supermajority Approval Ratings. nothing really, you are doing a good job.
75% -> 50% Simple majority Approval Ratings. No benefits from positive happiness.
50% -> 33% Supermajority Opposition. Cities receive a -33% Growth/Production Penalty. -10% Combat Penalty. Rebels can Spawn.
25% -> 20% Overwhelming Opposition. Cities receive a -75% Growth/Production Penalty. -20% Combat Penalty. Rebels can Spawn. Cities can revolt.
0%: wtf is going on here. Cities receive a -100% Growth/-90% Production Penalty. -33% Combat Penalty. Rebels can Spawn. Cities can revolt.

Once you go above and beyond that approval rating of 66% then you can start experiencing a Golden Age much more easier. Right now it just seems silly for everybody to be going for that 100% approval rating because you're supposed to. It should reward players for going the extra mile in reaching above and beyond 66% happiness to 100% rather than forcing you to maintain a docile state.

1% to 19% is the sweet spot. Congress protects you at all costs, and you can get buildings in foreign cities in exchange for letting them use your spies.

 

[Gazebo]

New beta version inbound, with changes listed above:

- some bugfixes for AI
- adding a 'local luxury' bonus for each city, +1 for each unique improved luxury around a city (doesn't care about luxuries owned by other cities)
- created a two-tier system for handicaps - one for capital and one for other cities. Currently, all 'other city' handicaps start at one - the capital is the only one that varies by handicap.
- slightly increased empire scaler to 10% (was 8%)
- Tradition opener - dropped +1 culture and reduced food to +2, and moved +1 happiness on Palace here (made it +2). So pop bump is now happiness-neutral.
- Future tech now applies +1 happiness to every city, was +10 to capital.
- Some UI tweaks and additions, including an addition to the growth panel to show upcoming positive happiness changes

Technically save game compatible, but your happiness might swing a bit. Have fun!

Link: https://mega.nz/#F!2Jdw3aQT!Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA (it's the -2b version).

 

[pineappledan]

1% to 19% is the sweet spot. Congress protects you at all costs, and you can get buildings in foreign cities in exchange for letting them use your spies.

I think you mean 41.6%

 

[Gothic_Empire]

TRADITION LOST A CULTURE? LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE, BURN THE ENTIRE MOD

 

[Gothic_Empire]

New beta version inbound, with changes listed above:

- some bugfixes for AI
- adding a 'local luxury' bonus for each city, +1 for each unique improved luxury around a city (doesn't care about luxuries owned by other cities)
- created a two-tier system for handicaps - one for capital and one for other cities. Currently, all 'other city' handicaps start at one - the capital is the only one that varies by handicap.
- slightly increased empire scaler to 10% (was 8%)
- Tradition opener - dropped +1 culture and reduced food to +2, and moved +1 happiness on Palace here (made it +2). So pop bump is now happiness-neutral.
- Future tech now applies +1 happiness to every city, was +10 to capital.
- Some UI tweaks and additions, including an addition to the growth panel to show upcoming positive happiness changes

Technically save game compatible, but your happiness might swing a bit. Have fun!

Link: https://mega.nz/#F!2Jdw3aQT!Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA (it's the -2b version).

Now in Mod-Pack flavor:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dgkoxpwf85rdgvo/DLC.7z?dl=0

 

[Cat-du-fromage]

TRADITION LOST A CULTURE? LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE, BURN THE ENTIRE MOD

I was testing some mod today, doing an "AI battle" and it seems tradition perform very well even with the drop of 1 culture.

 

[FoxOfWar]

I'll have to give it to this mod yet again - I seem to be completely unable to win a toe-to-toe, equal tech war anymore on King difficulty. The AI outmaneuvers this pleb pretty handily. Even when I think I have a decent army, some UU's in the mix and leading on military score over my opponent, the AI just out-positions me in no time at all.

Granted, today's game had the extra frustration of trying to capture some Incan cities on a hilly/mountainous territory. Shooould probably know better than to try that, next time.

 

[Moi Magnus]

I'll have to give it to this mod yet again - I seem to be completely unable to win a toe-to-toe, equal tech war anymore on King difficulty. The AI outmaneuvers this pleb pretty handily. Even when I think I have a decent army, some UU's in the mix and leading on military score over my opponent, the AI just out-positions me in no time at all.

At some point, we should consider actuallly giving XP bonuses to the human at settler difficulty (and maybe warlord too). Because the AI is getting (edit: significantly) better than a beginner at warfare...

 

[randomnub]

I started multiple (10+) games to get the feeling of this beta on standard continents/pangea maps and I didn't see a single AI select Progress yet. That's not a bad decision by any means (authority/tradition work for those AIs, there's no 'straight progress' civ pick that is playing suboptimally) but I can't help thinking there's some oversight going on, that or rng is making fun of me.

 

[Moi Magnus]

I started multiple (10+) games to get the feeling of this beta on standard continents/pangea maps and I didn't see a single AI select Progress yet. That's not a bad decision by any means (authority/tradition work for those AIs, there's no 'straight progress' civ pick that is playing suboptimally) but I can't help thinking there's some oversight going on, that or rng is making fun of me.

You can look at the policy log to see how well progress was ranked.

 

[Stalker0]

At some point, we should consider actuallly giving XP bonuses to the human at settler difficulty (and maybe warlord too). Because the AI is getting better than a beginner at warfare...

A beginner! Its better than me at Emperor

 

[Stalker0]

- adding a 'local luxury' bonus for each city, +1 for each unique improved luxury around a city (doesn't care about luxuries owned by other cities)

Just confirming, as I believe this is how it works.

1) If I have gold on City 1, City 1 = +1 happy. If City 1 has two gold: City 1 = +1 happy (aka no additional bonus)
2) If City 2 has a gold, also +1 bonus (City 1 and 2 both get a happy for each having a copy of gold).
3) Luxuries acquired through trade only affect the luxury scaler. Which from my experience so far means acquiring new luxuries provides almost 0 benefit.


What if for the Global Number, each luxury added to the denominator with a scaler.

Approach 1: Global Happiness = 1 - (Unhappy / [Total Pop + Era Scaler * Unique Luxuries]).

So luxuries would help keep the Global Happiness up, and could scale with Era to keep them relevant as your population increased. By affecting the denominator instead of the numerator, it scales a little more elegantly (affecting the numerator would probably shift the numbers too strongly).

If we went this approach we would likely need to adjust the Global Happiness ratios (probably should do that anyway they are very forgiving right now except in the very earliest part of the game). But it would help to make luxuries relevant for Trade again.


Approach 2: Another option is you modify the population by a percentage based on the number of luxuries.

Example (luxury adds 10% to Global Population): Global Happiness = 1 - (Unhappy / [Total Pop * Unique Luxuries * 1.10])

So this adds an automatic scaler that might get stronger in the late game but would be softer in the early game compared to approach 1.

 

[Stalker0]

And just noting, the reason I keep bringing up the trading of luxuries is that I think this is the main "flaw" in the system right now. The only incentive to buy luxuries right now is for WLTKD. The luxury scaler does very little to incentive the hording of luxuries. The new tweak G just made will make settling next to luxuries attractive, but doesn't solve the trading problem.

Other system issues are numbers tweaks, but I feel that this problem requires a more fundamental adjustment. This is not a scenario where we can adjust the luxury scaler a little bit and be done with it (and if we adjust it strongly it will be way OP). People were already complaining when we dropped luxuries from 2 Global Happiness back to 1 they were not strong enough to be worth buying, and currently luxuries are much weaker than even that. If we don't make buying a luxury AT LEAST that strong...than no one will trade them.

 

[Moi Magnus]

A beginner! Its better than me at Emperor

... I fear that the next time I will have time for a serious game, I will die in one-sided wars as I used to 6 years ago...