New Beta Version - March 1st (3/1)

[Gazebo]

Yeah, I like the idea of some wonders being purely culture based and others being scientific, rather than all of them sharing one universal system. I wonder if gold wonders and faith wonders could be locked behind religious (a few already are) or economic requirements as well.

The universal system has one major benefit: it is universal. It's easy to understand once you see it. Also, if you start locking wonders behind other walls (like GPT, or SPT, or FPT, etc.), they become 'win more' buttons, not strategic choices. Policies and Science are fairly 'neutral' entities, and play to the two major passive/active bonus systems of the game (policies and technologies). Religion already has a few 'holy city' wonders, and the national wonders, and that's enough to make it separate. Since policies have unique wonders, making the tech wonders an AND system with policies rounds out the pro/con of going heavy science/heavy culture.

In short, the system is as fragmented as it can be without lots of obfuscation.

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[Synge]

Maybe I missed it but has anything been done to affect tourism? As a player, I don't seem to be generating any despite getting a bunch of different pop ups saying I'd gained some.

Granted I've just entered the classical age.

 

[notque]

In short, the system is as fragmented as it can be without lots of obfuscation.

I'd say that's true already without the culture change.

 

[Wario Mario]

That sounds like a far better system. The only issue is, often you use a wonder to get a thing. I use a wonder, to get faith.

In this type of system, you would have to have faith, so you'd get a wonder to increase your lead on it. Not to get it.

Not a bad thing, but a nuance that needs to be considered.

Good considerations.

I would hope the requirements wouldn't be set too high. For example, Stonehenge shouldn't have a requirment at all, but the later religious wonders would require an amount of faith, or that you founded a religion, or that a certain % of your nation/the world is following your religion.

So if you're the weakest founder, you might be able to snipe University of sankore from the religious leader. I just don't want civs that have clearly gone for science or culture in lieu of religion to get it.

 

[Gazebo]

Maybe I missed it but has anything been done to affect tourism? As a player, I don't seem to be generating any despite getting a bunch of different pop ups saying I'd gained some.

Granted I've just entered the classical age.

Popups are instant tourism, not permanent tourism.

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[Tomice]

An alternative to the proposed "AND" unlocking mechanism for wonders (Players need both the tech AND a certain number of policies) would be refining the currently introduced "OR" system.

It seems the number of policies needed was too low (wonders where too often unlocked by policies before the tech unlock kicked in). And we need to limit the unlocked wonders per social policy to 2, maybe 3 if needed. Currently it's up to 5 wonders per policy I think.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

An alternative to the proposed "AND" unlocking mechanism for wonders (Players need both the tech AND a certain number of policies) would be refining the currently introduced "OR" system.

It seems the number of policies needed was too low (wonders where too often unlocked by policies before the tech unlock kicked in). And we need to limit the unlocked wonders per social policy to 2, maybe 3 if needed. Currently it's up to 5 wonders per policy I think.

Besides refining the number of policies required to unlock the wonder,maybe it would be better that for unlocking the wonders with policies your research shouldn't be far behind. Maybe something like: the required number of polcies + a technology researched from the same column as the technology which unlocks the wonder.

 

[mikes61293]

About the pantheon nerf, in the two games I started, the AI founded all available religions between turns 50 and 90 (standard speed, immortal). This is nothing new, but the new pantheons make it really hard for human players to get a religion that fast. I have no idea how the AI is still capable of such faith production, despite the pantheon nerfs.

It is also worth noting that the pantheon nerf indirectly buffs all civs who have the ability to generate extra early game faith. (The Maya, the Celts, Ethiopia, Spain etc.) With the way early game science is now, all civs that can generate extra early game science are also significantly stronger. The Maya feel especially powerful with their Kuna, as it produces both faith and science.

I agree, the AI seems to be getting religions much faster now. It also makes religious city states and natural wonders much more powerful now.

I think it's just a numbers thing where the AI bonuses and different civs have to be balanced around the new system.

About the wonder requirement change, I think the idea of imposing additional requirements to wonders is a great, but I am not sure if I like the current system. Wonders unlocking through the policy count diminishes the need to plan your playing regarding wonders, because simply having a lot of policies gives you all the wonders you want. Even with a tech lead, unless you had completely overtaken everyone else technologically, the old system still required you to navigate the tech tree in a way that you get quickly to the wonders you want or someone else might steal them. In the same way, if you were not leading in techs, you could still bee line certain wonders effectively. Now even the lead of a single policy in the culture race gives you a chance to build any wonder before anyone else. Because of this, comeback mechanisms like bee lining are no longer very viable. The policy lead is absolute, while tech lead neccessarly wasn’t/isn’t.

In my opinion the best idea would be to have different requirements for different wonders, like we already have for policy tree finishers and some other wonders (Petra, Machu Pichu etc.). This way all kinds of civs would have a chance to build certain wonders. Which wonders you get to build varies with playstyle. It makes the game more interesting, and actually guides the AI to choose wonders that are most benefitting for its play. If this is too complicated, then the AND-system (wonders require tech and n policies) already mentioned here seems like the best choice to me.

I'd like to see an AND system as well. However the number of policies required should be different for different wonders. Some wonders should have a low tech, high social policy cost that makes it easy for cultural civs to get and other wonders should have a trivial social policy cost which means the first to reach that tech will have a good chance at it. Other should be fairly balanced.

Also, barbarian galleys were already a pain to deal with, because you have absolutely no counter to them during the ancient era. Now on top of that their combat strength got now buffed. I don’t think it makes sense in the first place for barbarians to get naval units before civilizations do. Would it be possible to change it so that they start spawning a bit later?

I'd like to see them spawn later or move the trireme to fishing.

 

[notque]

I'd like to see an AND system as well. However the number of policies required should be different for different wonders. Some wonders should have a low tech, high social policy cost that makes it easy for cultural civs to get and other wonders should have a trivial social policy cost which means the first to reach that tech will have a good chance at it. Other should be fairly balanced.

That's a fairly reasonable proposal, however if that's the intention why not just add more wonders to be built from certain policy trees. I don't really see the need to do this to the base wonders if the intention is to just allow high culture civs wonders.

It's a more elegant solution. You could take the culture social policy, and make each policy unlock a wonder that you can build. Issue solved.

 

[Barbaro]

/\
I agree with Taikavarpu.

 

[Zares]

That sounds like a far better system. The only issue is, often you use a wonder to get a thing. I use a wonder, to get faith.

In this type of system, you would have to have faith, so you'd get a wonder to increase your lead on it. Not to get it.

Not a bad thing, but a nuance that needs to be considered.

I think it's a good system, because before this change ppl spammed some Wonders just because they liked some of them and not for some kind of grand strategy.

Also, barbarian galleys were already a pain to deal with, because you have absolutely no counter to them during the ancient era. Now on top of that their combat strength got now buffed. I don’t think it makes sense in the first place for barbarians to get naval units before civilizations do. Would it be possible to change it so that they start spawning a bit later?

Not sure what exactly mod added it, but I can build Galley as well I only use JFD's mods (Exploration Continued Expanded, Cultural Diversity, Raise to Power and Cities in Development). For now, there is problem with Wonders if using JFD's mods with CPP, but except this, everything is compatible and I cannot imagine playing without them (The only exception is MP which is fun with pure CPP) CPP is still the only thing that keeps me playing Civ, but with JFD's mods is even better I hope he'll fix compatibility soon.

Anyways, yes, there should be possibility to build early ships in pure CPP. What if someone wants to play that map with a lot of small islands (I forgot a name) with raging barbarians?

 

[mavol6]

anyone experiencing crashes during this new patch?, my game is closing after then 2-4 turn.

 

[Gazebo]

Crashers, post minidumps.

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[Guynemer]

anyone experiencing crashes during this new patch?, my game is closing after then 2-4 turn.

I had the same problem; it resolved after I deactivated my other mods (InfoAddict and Quick Turns).

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Crashers, post minidumps.

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Do you want minidumps for hotseat games?

 

[Gothic_Empire]

That's a fairly reasonable proposal, however if that's the intention why not just add more wonders to be built from certain policy trees. I don't really see the need to do this to the base wonders if the intention is to just allow high culture civs wonders.

It's a more elegant solution. You could take the culture social policy, and make each policy unlock a wonder that you can build. Issue solved.

I like the idea that culture and science are both valuable for unlocking wonders. I think culture is a tad overpowered in this specific iteration, but I think the core idea is sound.

Hiding certain wonders in certain policies also forces people to play a more rote game, and stops denial play almost entirely.

 

[mavol6]

Crashers, post minidumps.

G

pardon my ignorance, what do i have to do for that?

 

[ExpiredReign]

Can we somehow make Venice not choose Pyramids as an option for wonder building? Seems a waste to me.

All they are getting is 1, which can be gained by another, easier building and 25% improvement building which also can be sought by taking Expertise as a policy.

Unless they are given a Great Merchant instead of the settler. Not sure, do they?

EDIT: Looks like they do. Damn Venice just took the only CS in the vicinity and it is only turn 55. In that case, disregard seems reasonable to me as an option.

 

[Synge]

It might be prudent to throw this into the CP, so people don't get this issue in the - tragic - event that they're not using RtP, ExCE, or CID, but are using another mod that uses dummy policies (custom civs are notorious for this).

UPDATE Policies
SET IsDummy = 1
WHERE PolicyBranchType IS NULL
AND NOT Type IN (SELECT FreePolicy FROM PolicyBranchTypes WHERE FreePolicy IS NOT NULL)
AND NOT Type IN (SELECT FreeFinishingPolicy FROM PolicyBranchTypes WHERE FreeFinishingPolicy IS NOT NULL);

CREATE TRIGGER CBP_DummyPolicies
AFTER INSERT ON Policies
WHEN NEW.PolicyBranchType IS NULL
AND NOT NEW.Type IN (SELECT FreePolicy FROM PolicyBranchTypes WHERE FreePolicy IS NOT NULL)
AND NOT NEW.Type IN (SELECT FreeFinishingPolicy FROM PolicyBranchTypes WHERE FreeFinishingPolicy IS NOT NULL)
BEGIN
	UPDATE Policies
	SET IsDummy = 1
	WHERE Type = NEW.Type;
END;

This'll just catch any policy without a Policy Branch assigned, except where that policy is the free starter/finisher given out by a Policy Branch. Tested and works.
EDIT: Fixes the wonder issue, definitely.

To which file do I need to add this?

 

[Gazebo]

Can we somehow make Venice not choose Pyramids as an option for wonder building? Seems a waste to me.

All they are getting is 1, which can be gained by another, easier building and 25% improvement building which also can be sought by taking Expertise as a policy.

Unless they are given a Great Merchant instead of the settler. Not sure, do they?

They get a Great Merchant.


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