Tugboatspotter
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2019
- Messages
- 278
No worries James, I just don't want to see you have to deal with pc problems on top of that.
New Beta Version - March 1st (3-1)
- Thread starter Gazebo
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JamesNinelives
Emperor
No trouble. My Dad does computer modelling and used to be a sysadmin so at least if something does happen I won't be on my own.
The Immortal AI is so aggressive with settling again, reminds me of years ago. I got lazy with some cities I thought would be in my back but Genghis Khan just sailed around me to settle two of them, now I have 4 cities and a settler with nowhere good to go. 
pineappledan
Deity
It certainly does seem low for being gated behind 3
. The earliest Engineers is either Tradition's guardhouse or the Forge. Considering you are sacrificing 3
to pick a 1guardhouse first, that seems like a 3rd policy choice, and there are only 4 engineer specialists on the whole tech tree (Forge, Workshop, Factory, Seaport/TrainStation). Just seems like this gets started pretty slow. Laughs in Phoenician. This is going to make Venice and Desert starts (Petra) much more competitive for founding. Love it.
psparky
King
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2011
- Messages
- 624
Regarding the various crashes, two thoughts:
You guys do realize that autosaves happen after the AI have had their turn. If the problem is caused by something on the AI's turn an autosave won't show it. You need to check that the saves that you are submitting do still crash when you reload them. If not, you may need to load the previous autosave, play that turn, then save. If the game then crashes on the AI turn, submit that new save. I know most of you guys will already know this - just trying to help.
[ Edit - Woke up this morning and realized this is nonsense! It's true if you are reporting an issue where something interesting happened on the AI turn - they offered a strange deal, declared war when they shouldn't be able to, that sort of thing. However, if the game crashes, there can't be an autosave produced after that! Feeling pretty dumb
]
Maybe someone who is getting crashes could try some of the saves that someone else submitted. Might help to establish a pattern.
Bonus thought: a bit of a longshot, but could it be graphics card related - maybe a graphics driver bug.
You guys do realize that autosaves happen after the AI have had their turn. If the problem is caused by something on the AI's turn an autosave won't show it. You need to check that the saves that you are submitting do still crash when you reload them. If not, you may need to load the previous autosave, play that turn, then save. If the game then crashes on the AI turn, submit that new save. I know most of you guys will already know this - just trying to help.
[ Edit - Woke up this morning and realized this is nonsense! It's true if you are reporting an issue where something interesting happened on the AI turn - they offered a strange deal, declared war when they shouldn't be able to, that sort of thing. However, if the game crashes, there can't be an autosave produced after that! Feeling pretty dumb
]Maybe someone who is getting crashes could try some of the saves that someone else submitted. Might help to establish a pattern.
Bonus thought: a bit of a longshot, but could it be graphics card related - maybe a graphics driver bug.
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Yes, I've tried with loading regular save from same turns and doing nothing or differrent action.
I tried with previous graphics driver version.
I tried in Dx9 and in strategic view.
Case in point under all circumstances 2.9.4b (and the gold version from july) works like a charm.
My notes below:
General
--No "major performance improvements"....outrageous!
Religion
Pantheons
God of Commerce - +2 faith/gold in connected cities; Capital/Holy city gains +2 great merchant points, +2 gold/faith per active trade route
--I like it
Craftsmen - removed monument bonus; +1 culture/science and +2 faith from palace
--So we are losing the scaling gold and culture in return for a major faith infusion right out of the gate, and a tiny bump of science. Ultimately I think its a good trade, with a shrine first focus on secondary cities this should be a solid founder type belief.
Goddess of Love now Tutleary Gods - +2 production, +1 faith in cities with 3+ citizens; +1 production and faith from Engineer specialists
--So if we consider that God of All Creation is currently the exemplar belief for "faith too low to commonly found, but strong enough bonuses to be worth it". GOAC gives 1 faith immediately, with 1 faith scaling per city (with monument). I would say this belief gives 1 faith immediately, a second faith with tradition's engineer belief as a 3rd policy (and this belief would only be taken with tradition imo). Its secondary scalers in other cities is almost non-existant, as forges take 5 techs and a 150 hammer building to get its faith. For comparison, craftsmen, which historically as been a pantheon cited as "takes too long to get the buildings up", requires 3 techs and a 110 hammer building.
So I think its safe to say that founder potential of this pantheon is almost non-existent. So how does it do in comparison to GOAC as a "not founding, but its good enough I don't care" pantheon. Your capital will get +2 prod from both beliefs, but GOAC gives 2 food, 2 science, 2 gold....and 3 culture! This one will gives some production scaling with Tradition 2 (now that we have given up on founding I think you always go for the engineer on Tradition 2 with this pantheon), and ultimately help secondary cities get some production. Eh....it just doesn't seem enough to me to say good bye to religion. GOAC gives yields stronger and faster in the earliest parts of the game, and I don't think this one gives enough of a bonus to warrant tossing out my religion.
Earth Mother - removed Iron bonus, scaling production; added +1 faith and production from Monuments
--Ultimately the shift of faith from iron to monuments gives this a smoother curve and more consistent scaling. Ultimately this is theoretically one of the most culture heavy pantheons now (Festivals remains the most if you can push it right), which gives it an interesting niche. I like where its going.
Reformation
Defender of the Faith - culture and faith dropped to +1/+2 (Was +2/+3)
--Good change.
Enhancer
Inqusition - bonus from remove heresy now scales on # of purged believers, not conversion status
--Not really sure what this does. I still don't like the belief conceptually.
Mendicancy - dropped ITR stuff, added +1 faith per 10GPT, capped at half followers
--Why was this changed?
Syncretism - dropped yield per birth; added +1 faith per 15 science in city, capped at half followers
--Why was this changed? Was it because of the AIs faster grow rates?
Units
Dropped great artist/scientist instant yields by about 15-20%
--A good change. I will say that this will directly lead to a slowdown of culture/science in the late game, but I think that's a good thing.
Increased scaling on WLTKD for towns for great merchants to 20% (Was 10%)
--So this means that each GM will increase the WLTKD by 1 turn? (20% of 5 turns = 1 turn). Still too little.
Cities
Starting defense is 5 (was 4)
--A good change. I do think we need to take a look at the walls line before we truly finalize the version. Tradition capitals are getting crazy CS with just walls. Meanwhile, Arsenals and Military Bases seem almost worthless right now.
Starting HP is 300 (was 200), scales by 10 per pop (Was 5 per pop)
--The pop scale makes sense to me, but I don't think the hp increase is that warranted. If the CS numbers are good, units won't be doing the crazy damage they do now. And if units are doing reasonable damage, 100 extra damage to chew through is no joke.
Espionage
Reduced influence rigging gain to +15
--What was it currently? Is this the amount of influence you get with the CS, or the amount of XP the spy receives?
So inquisition was a decent cash cow for medival -> industrial warfare, it used to be gold on convert, now its gold on removing heresy, ie before you could pressure too much so no full religion was present which meant no conversion gold.
I would say main use is for warfare (convert/remove heresy for gold).
There is mayyyybe also a potential to build an intentionally pressure weak religion (no religious buildings no pressure from enhancer) which could provide continous gold from removing heresy, especially if you are close to certain religious nutters.
Was Syncretism maybe a partial reason for unreasonable Mongol spikes?
A LOT, first rig from english spy and you had an ally.
Same when going statecraft (as any civ), just rig cs after cs and ally everything on the map, definitely a needed nerf.
I don't know if +15 is the correct/balanced number.
So my initial game on Immortal. Carthage (my neighbor) and I (Babylon) both go progress. My turn 81 she has 5 policies to my 4. The Great Library was just built as was the Hanging Gardens, and I got the culture to build it just a few turns ago. I found mt Fuji with my 2nd city (4 extra culture), and went left side of progress early for the extra culture on buildings (while I generally now agree that right side is overall better, left side is still a bit better on culture).
So....yeah, I'll have to try the GL or HG again with a tradition start, but that culture requirement is brutal right now.
Also noting that all religions were found by Turn 93. That is pretty early compared to previous games, but its not outside the possibility. I have seen this happen (though rarely) on Immortal games before the recent changes, so could just be an outlier. I did try Wisdom with Babylon using Progress as a test. As I suspected, library isn't really an option for your initial secondary cities to get that initial specialist, it just takes too many hammers (council + library is double the cost of a market). So it looks like I will need to use markets for my secondary cities. While that is weird on theme I don't consider that a mechanical issue. I will retry Wisdom on Tradition to see how I like it.
So....yeah, I'll have to try the GL or HG again with a tradition start, but that culture requirement is brutal right now.
Also noting that all religions were found by Turn 93. That is pretty early compared to previous games, but its not outside the possibility. I have seen this happen (though rarely) on Immortal games before the recent changes, so could just be an outlier. I did try Wisdom with Babylon using Progress as a test. As I suspected, library isn't really an option for your initial secondary cities to get that initial specialist, it just takes too many hammers (council + library is double the cost of a market). So it looks like I will need to use markets for my secondary cities. While that is weird on theme I don't consider that a mechanical issue. I will retry Wisdom on Tradition to see how I like it.
AI does not get any faith bonuses or modifiers anymore, but yes, the AI is doing a better job at founding early as it is getting high-faith pantheons more reliably.
G
Goddess of Love now Tutleary Gods - +2 production, +1 faith in cities with 3+ citizens; +1 production and faith from Engineer specialists
--So if we consider that God of All Creation is currently the exemplar belief for "faith too low to commonly found, but strong enough bonuses to be worth it". GOAC gives 1 faith immediately, with 1 faith scaling per city (with monument). I would say this belief gives 1 faith immediately, a second faith with tradition's engineer belief as a 3rd policy (and this belief would only be taken with tradition imo). Its secondary scalers in other cities is almost non-existant, as forges take 5 techs and a 150 hammer building to get its faith. For comparison, craftsmen, which historically as been a pantheon cited as "takes too long to get the buildings up", requires 3 techs and a 110 hammer building.
Tutleary may be a bit weak, but I do want an 'animist' pantheon that gives us a potent ancient/classical with a slim chance of founding, comparable to GOAC.
Enhancer
Inqusition - bonus from remove heresy now scales on # of purged believers, not conversion status
--Not really sure what this does. I still don't like the belief conceptually.
Instead of only granting the lump sum on majority conversion, it now grants x amount per citizen purged of heresy. For the emperor!
Mendicancy - dropped ITR stuff, added +1 faith per 10GPT, capped at half followers
--Why was this changed?
IMO this is a stronger bonus.
Syncretism - dropped yield per birth; added +1 faith per 15 science in city, capped at half followers
--Why was this changed? Was it because of the AIs faster grow rates?
No, changed because it's a stronger bonus.
Units
Dropped great artist/scientist instant yields by about 15-20%
--A good change. I will say that this will directly lead to a slowdown of culture/science in the late game, but I think that's a good thing.
Increased scaling on WLTKD for towns for great merchants to 20% (Was 10%)
--So this means that each GM will increase the WLTKD by 1 turn? (20% of 5 turns = 1 turn). Still too little.
Cities
Starting defense is 5 (was 4)
--A good change. I do think we need to take a look at the walls line before we truly finalize the version. Tradition capitals are getting crazy CS with just walls. Meanwhile, Arsenals and Military Bases seem almost worthless right now.
Starting HP is 300 (was 200), scales by 10 per pop (Was 5 per pop)
--The pop scale makes sense to me, but I don't think the hp increase is that warranted. If the CS numbers are good, units won't be doing the crazy damage they do now. And if units are doing reasonable damage, 100 extra damage to chew through is no joke.
Espionage
Reduced influence rigging gain to +15
--What was it currently? Is this the amount of influence you get with the CS, or the amount of XP the spy receives?
It was 20 (ESPIONAGE_INFLUENCE_GAINED_FOR_RIGGED_ELECTION)
2 is correct, desc. is typo.
Another quick run this time with Babylon Tradition.
1) Managed to get the GL on Turn 80 with big help from a production ruin....though I had no secondary culture to back me this time. HG was gotten turn 92, looks like these wonders are back in Tradition players hands unless you can snag a huge secondary culture source with Progress.
2) Religion founded (Wisdom) on Turn 93. Since its giving +2 faith with specialists right now, it was pretty easy to found with, just tradition 2 and 3 cities (and the 3rd city just for the shrine).
3) Religions taken by Turn 100, which is my par for Immortal play, so that tracks.
4) Can confirm very fast expansion by AIs. My neighbor had 4 cities as I was founding my 3rd, and the two AIs I have met have 6 cities as I'm settling my 4th.
1) Managed to get the GL on Turn 80 with big help from a production ruin....though I had no secondary culture to back me this time. HG was gotten turn 92, looks like these wonders are back in Tradition players hands unless you can snag a huge secondary culture source with Progress.
2) Religion founded (Wisdom) on Turn 93. Since its giving +2 faith with specialists right now, it was pretty easy to found with, just tradition 2 and 3 cities (and the 3rd city just for the shrine).
3) Religions taken by Turn 100, which is my par for Immortal play, so that tracks.
4) Can confirm very fast expansion by AIs. My neighbor had 4 cities as I was founding my 3rd, and the two AIs I have met have 6 cities as I'm settling my 4th.
tu_79
Deity
Playing for about 180 turns, no CTD yet. It's a quite enjoyable game this one. Plus, I'm having a hard time conquering a neighbour that has connected several lakes with its cities. Maybe it was by chance, but it's a challenge.
pineappledan
Deity
Ya’ll are spelling tutelary weird.
maybe it could have another yield boost at 5?
2
1 if city has 3.
33 if city has 5.
11 to Engineer specialists
Make people really grit their teeth when they lose that 5th on a settler.
Re: the mendicancy and syncretism changes, I like it because it’s more in line with what I envision enhancers as doing. A belief giving
for every follower/city is just converting to other yields with extra steps. This is converting other yields to , so it’s sort of a reverse.
maybe it could have another yield boost at 5
?2
1 if city has 3.3
3 if city has 5.1
1 to Engineer specialistsMake people really grit their teeth when they lose that 5th
on a settler.Re: the mendicancy and syncretism changes, I like it because it’s more in line with what I envision enhancers as doing. A belief giving
for every follower/city is just converting to other yields with extra steps. This is converting other yields to , so it’s sort of a reverse.
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Asterix Rage
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2010
- Messages
- 1,585
What is your setting?
What civs on the map?
JamesNinelives
Emperor
They do crash. I submit autosaves one turn before the crash though, which is what was recommended I think. Thanks anyway.
Sorry, what do you mean? Why is working specialists in your secondary cities important?
Are you playing a particular civ or random? Playing as India, The Shoshone, or The Celts might make it doable. The India AI is doing so much better with the improved belief selection btw.
Cokolwiek
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2019
- Messages
- 512
Wisdom now gives one faith and science in cities with a specialist.
@JamesNinelives did you see my post here? https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/issues/6313#issuecomment-593676515
Curious to get feedback from CTDers on this.
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