New challenge: earliest possible UHVs

[AnotherPacifist]

I don't want to spoil the party , but the very essence of virtual victory requires to register the win for the turn when Paris actually has the most culture in the world. I mean no one questions that at 1700 AD Paris will be there with the most culture in the world. But the year as it is right now is the year for the two UHVs, not for all 3 .

I have to agree, but in the same vein, it's really possible for the AI to spawn 3 great artists to overcome Paris' culture at anytime (even though it never does it). I did see once Arabia using 2 great artists and ruining my UHV, but that was a long time ago.
The same thing goes for the Spanish VV--it's always possible for England to build a city before 1700 in the Americas (although we'll see about that soon with my 1-galley armada ), so unless you absolutely kill England, there IS no VV for Spain.

I really think that the French Paris criteria should be changed. I hate Paris--wasted since it cramps out Bordeaux, just doesn't reach the iron or stone, and wastes food because it's not on the coast. Metz and Brest were doing just fine before I had to build Paris. Having a criteria that says your capital has the most culture would be much better.

I'll play on with the French game to see how advanced I can get before 1700--my goal is to get at least Assembly Line.

 

[BurnEmDown]

But then You could just move your capital to Denver or another high-production city and put all hammers into culture, the UHV will be too easy like that.

 

[Tigranes]

For those ambiguous cases, after you virtually have all 3 UHVs, IMO the safest way is to play to the end and post both pictures (unlike in the case of Germany or Japan, if you are stable).

 

[Tigranes]

America with Philadelphia looks ok, but France without Paris, or UK without London look just gross . And who needs Babylon in those flood plains anyway ?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, so I got to Ecology in 1700 (although without AL, I did have nationalism, fission, steam power, medicine and mass media). Paris built Cristo Redentor, Hollywood and National Gallery, had 13000 culture--needed 2 bombed artists to overcome Metz which had about 11000 and Bordeaux which had 10500 (I forgot the artists themselves, although not GREAT artists, give a lot of culture too). Good is the enemy of great, as Salieri (or was it Voltaire?) said.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

As noted above, it's always possible for Spain to lose at any time, but founding the first American city and at least destroying/vassalizing 1 civ that can found cities in America, AND having such superior tech that they cannot possibly send any settlers over there, should count as a VV IMHO.

Here I am in 1410, having sent my lone chopped/whipped galley from Bilbao with a warrior and a longbow, and having been so lucky to lose only a swordsman when razing Bordeaux and Marseilles, allowing me to capture Alexandria (despite Arabia declare war on me). London and Dublin are mine, England has collapsed, and I bribed the Germans to war on the Dutch with gunpowder. The French declared on the Germans, who then asked to me to war on the French. Even though Frankfurt is razed, the iron is owned by the Dutch, so France has no way to build knights. (Plus the fact that they trespassed on the Pope from Indyland and 2 Papal pikemen have staunchly guarded the horse from being pastured). I have conquistadors and promoted cannon, I'm about 9 turns to military science, I just founded Caracas, I own all of Mexico and the requisite number in Peru (I have 3 cities while Inca my vassal has 1). Plus neither France nor Netherlands are even close to Astronomy. I just have a peace treaty signed with the Portuguese so I'm not in imminent danger of being backstabbed.

So any objections? (I can play this out and collapse France/Netherlands)

Spoiler :

 

[ambassoon]

Are we still doing the rule where you have to post the actual UHV screenshot for the earliest VV score to count?

 

[BurnEmDown]

AP, I think Collapsing the French and the Dutch should be a real simple task, it should take you what, 40 years or so? Once they're gone I think the VV is vaild, and ofc you should play until 1700 to post the actual UHV message screen.

 

[Tigranes]

@ambassoon, I think we should except for the cases like Japan/Germany/Russia.

@AP, Where is your capital?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

It's Toledo. The problem with the Spanish is that the Roman roads only reach up to Valencia/Barcelona, and you want more culture near the Portuguese and French. Lisboa was the perfect capital until Rhye disallowed it; you can get to that tile by move 2. It was either Toledo or Santiago, and I think that once I kill off the Portuguese (after the French and Dutch are dead), Toledo will be a reasonably productive capital, as long as I spread some farms in the dry plains near it.
It took a while but in 1455 I can truly say that it will be impossible for any cities in America to be anything other than Spanish or Portuguese. France was willing to capitulate with Brest as their only city, and obviously I'm going to direct them away from astronomy.
So just to be fair, any future Spanish VV should have all 3 countries (Netherlands, France, England) vassalized or dead? That's a rather tall order, something that I routinely don't do. How about also counting the VV if every single egress from a port city is blocked by a frigate or ship of the line (if they have astronomy) or galleon (if they don't have astronomy)?

Spoiler :

 

[blizzrd]

Are we still doing the rule where you have to post the actual UHV screenshot for the earliest VV score to count?

Yes please, it is the simplest solution. I'm not as convinced by AP's arguments in this case.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, I think 1455 should officially count. 1410 was a little premature, but the outcome was clear. 1455 is quite clear: without England or Netherlands, and France researching military tradition for me in 50 moves, how can there be any colonies but mine, Portuguese and German? Actually the outcome was quite clear once I had captured London

Managed to build Wembley, all the Radio wonders, SoL and Kremlin, and got to Superconductors. All this under HR/Vassalage/Decentralization/OR/Subjugation and Slavery. Changed civics only after Cristo which was about 1740.

The Great Lighthouse is a monster--it sustained me until very late and I was loath to get corporation until Germany started researching steam power (i.e. AL). No wonder the Arabs do so well when I meet them.

Spoiler :

 

[BurnEmDown]

I've never seen a world this yellow before, GJ AP

 

[AnotherPacifist]

[Thanks to Tigranes for the wonderful suggestion of getting Alexandria early. I did not use the somewhat gimmicky Iceland galley flip which detracts too much from stability, but used my trademark gimmick of capturing capitals at start. If one wants to combine these two techniques one can probably get even earlier without having to research Astronomy.]

So extending my observations about the idiotic AI behavior of moving ALL their units except for a couple settlers (which is even more idiotic since they'll be captured) from their capital, I decided to conquer England AND Spain this time. All troops go towards Spain and Alexandria, and 2 longbows sit on the dyed forest NW of Alexandria until Arabia decided to sacrifice their troops weakening the longbow and pike there. 2 longbows go to the sheep 1NE of Madrid, and 1 axeman with a warrior built from Inverness goes to just south of the Thames. Madrid and London are duly captured. And even though there are newly spawned troops for the newly dead civs, they will make peace long before these troops get close to your cities. Spain will even give you Monotheism. Then they fade away from history... Rhye really needs to fix this stupid AI behavior.

Spoiler :

Really lucky and got calendar with the hut in Sweden, but it meant I had to whip lots of libraries around. Compass, guilds, optics, astronomy, then 0% science. Got Mali, Aztecs and Khmer as voluntary vassals, capitulated Inca. First city in the West Indies in 1300, liberated to the Aztecs.

The good thing about getting lots of good land is that you can have plenty of production. Plenty of production means plenty of ships produced. But, as Tigranes points out, with England gone, where to find targets?

Prime realization: There is no rule saying you can't give ships to your opponents so that you can sink them! Subprime realization: you can still build triremes even after astronomy, and triremes have no bonus against galleons or caravels!

So I gave tons of galleys (promoted only with 10% chances withdrawal, i.e. useless against attack) to the Dutch, DOW, sank them all the same turn, then gave my damaged triremes to the French, DOW, and sank them all with my galleons/caravels! Even gave a wounded caravel to the Portuguese and sank it with an undamaged trireme which made my 25th ship.

Built Wat Preah Pisnulok, Sistine Chapel, Univ of Sankore. Just got constitution in 1500.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[blizzrd]

Prime realization: There is no rule saying you can't give ships to your opponents so that you can sink them! Subprime realization: you can still build triremes even after astronomy, and triremes have no bonus against galleons or caravels!

So I gave tons of galleys (promoted only with 10% chances withdrawal, i.e. useless against attack) to the Dutch, DOW, sank them all the same turn, then gave my damaged triremes to the French, DOW, and sank them all with my galleons/caravels! Even gave a wounded caravel to the Portuguese and sank it with an undamaged trireme which made my 25th ship.

Wow. An inspired strategy.

600AD start? This is not clear from your post, but is a guess on my part.

 

[Tigranes]

Wow. An inspired strategy.

600AD start? This is not clear from your post, but is a guess on my part.

Anytime AP mentions Alexandria, it is 600 AD.

But I would call the strategy with sinking :suicide: your former ships even more "gimmicky" than historically accurate Iceland colonization and Vinland in America by 1000 AD . Well, I mean how you beat AP's year now? Doing the same but micromanaging to get gold 1 turn early? Naaah, I rather just give up

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The Vikings wanted an exhibition game for their advanced technology, hence they gave their outdated ships to be sank. Made peace as soon as the ships were sank, never used my raiding UP at all. And you know what, I never built a market prior to the 5000 g.

Yes, it's 600AD, but no reason why it wouldn't work for 3000 BC if you can find out where the Great Lighthouse is, and if it's under barbarian or Indy rule. The only problem may be that the Romans and Greeks have more advanced ships, but you can still give galleys out to the vulnerable Dutch (who usually make peace as soon as possible). Also, Spain might get some flipped Carthaginian cities and thus you can't kill them at start, but then the Germans would be good game, and even closer for lack of maintenance.

 

[Tigranes]

So just to be fair, any future Spanish VV should have all 3 countries (Netherlands, France, England) vassalized or dead? That's a rather tall order, something that I routinely don't do. How about also counting the VV if every single egress from a port city is blocked by a frigate or ship of the line (if they have astronomy) or galleon (if they don't have astronomy)?

I think it's overkill. Anytime Victory says "have this done in year X" the Virtual Victory would be "have this done by year X but also in year X". The earliest instant you have met all the conditions for the Victory should count as VV date, if you actually won at the end. So with the Spanish the VV kicks in as soon as you have citiy and no one else has in Incan and Aztecs spawn region, British, French and Dutch have no cities in America and you have founded your first American city.

The best proof for Spanish would be a savegame just before you win at year 1760, so anyone can replay the history and see that no tile in Americas ever went red, blue or orange for the entire game.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So I am using TDK's observation/exploit again about declaring war on a civ before they found a city, and most of them will move military units out of their capital. (I figure that's how the Khmer got raze Sogut in his game) Tried this on the French and they attacked instead. But I've got England, Spain and northern Germany. Built Spiral Minaret and Univ of Sankore. Settler whipped from Mexico City since Astronomy was expensive and I don't have the Great Lighthouse. But I got it anyway after I have 5000 g with research at 40%.

Greece was very sneaky this round, having built the AP with Judaism just as I thought the Romans were about to do the same with Christianity (which I belong to). The Germans were their vassals for a while which allowed me to recuperate as there was no way I could have withstood a German onslaught.

And then a strange thing happened: France, Portugal, Netherlands and Russia all asked to be vassals just as I was about to give my 16 galleys away for sinking! So who to give my ships except Rome who has caravels, but I have to sail all my galleys and 2 triremes to North Africa to give him those. Otherwise it would have been VV in 1450 or earlier.

Spoiler :

First time ever that I got Augustus Caesar for Vikings, probably thanks to my vassals.

Spoiler :

 

[blizzrd]

600AD start

Spoiler :

Flipped no less than 7 Jaguars to start, which enabled me to conquer Chichen Itza early.

Researched Sailing-Monarchy-Feudalism-Alphabet-Iron Working-Metal Casting-Machinery-Meditation(Great Scientists bulb this otherwise!)-Optics-Astronomy-Sci Meth-Physics.

First GS was in New Orleans - Compass
Second GS was in Chichen Itza - Philosophy (excellent for trading when Turkey and Portugal first showed up)
Third GS was in New Orleans - ~40% off Physics

Traded for the rest. Built Libraries in every city ASAP using the whip. Stuck with HR/Slavery after the initial anarchy.
Didn't trade for Drama until the final turn. Didn't need extra culture, libraries were enough to expand all of my cities' fat crosses.

Golden Age began in 1718AD once I had declared war on three English colonies in North America and their various defenders.

Very important to send out caravels in both directions after learning Optics. Map trading netted me around 1000g alone, plus the trade routes were huge after Astronomy.