New challenge: earliest possible UHVs

[Tigranes]

"In many ways, Poitier was a repeat of the battle of Crécy showing once again that tactics and strategy can overcome a disadvantage in numbers." -- to cite Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Tried a new strategy this time -- get 8-10 cities early in the game for a maximum science output. Scandinavia has lots of hills, good for production. Silver is really important early resource (with forge). And Vikings declare war anyway. But I went for 100 year war.

How do you start Hundred years war with 4 Longbowmen? Well, you have 200 gold for Mercenaries. Sometimes you can't afford to hire all the available troops and Paris goes for Great Merchant right away so France can hire any leftover Mercenaries. Even without them France is full with all kinds of troops, with the bonuses against Melee and against horses, but no unit has a bonus against an English Longbow. So one need to use his Bows really carefully. Sacrificed one Longbow to takes Rennes on 2nd turn of my spawn. Left city undefended as a bite, stationed Longbows nearby. Sure enough, French army appeared one tile SE from Rennes (really looks like Poitier). Killed them all in a great battle, promoted Cover. Finally catapults arrived joined by the few mercenaries with ridiculous promotions -- hired them all, even a spearman (French had no horse). Hundred year war lasted 11 turns, 110 years -- almost like a real Hundred year war. Great Admiral took my galley with 2 French war veteran Longbows to Pagan. Essential city (wonder). Free religion was timed with Bureaucracy to have only one turn of anarchy in the entire game (if you don't count initial 2+1 turns).

Ended up with 5 vassals, just to boost the score. I never noticed any significant science/economy drawback -- colonial expenses add only -0.62 gold with 10 cities in 1500s. Never knew Great Engineer can (partially) bulb Electricity -- would save him, instead of bulbing Gunpowder, which does not help you with the race for the Radio. So, unfortunately, there is still room for beating 1545

Leaning Tower is a must have Wonder, more important than Sangore, so went Aesthetics, Literature from the very beginning.

By the way, does anybody know what triggers the dynamic name change (Kingdom of England --> Kingdom of the Great Britain). Is it a city in Scotland/Ireland, or a Civic Hereditary Rule? Replay shows that Rennes was taken by England, but Marseilles fell to the Great Britain...

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Very nice Tigranes. War early is always better than war later unless you're an opportunist like me.
Now if only the French or Spanish had a few boats to start with...

 

[Panopticon]

I never thought I'd see the Hundred Years' War used to such effect in RFC! Well done.

 

[TDK]

Great games guys.

I've just started my first Khmer game, what a great starting position. What are the standard 3 cities? I'm guessing Jakarta for sure, but Singapore looks like a slow starter.

 

[Fierabras]

Playing as the Khmer as well. Bang Makok, Hanoi and Jayajakarta look like the best first 3 cities. I'm a bit stuck on the 3rd UHV though. How do you get from 20% to 30% Buddhism? Those pesky barb privateers prevent me from reaching Europe fast enough.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Playing as the Khmer as well. Bang Makok, Hanoi and Jayajakarta look like the best first 3 cities. I'm a bit stuck on the 3rd UHV though. How do you get from 20% to 30% Buddhism? Those pesky barb privateers prevent me from reaching Europe fast enough.

Yes, those are the best cities, although some people would suggest getting a southeastern Indian city (where the cow and fish are) first and wait for barb Hanoi to spawn before conquering it and bombing it with a GA, simply because you cannot improve the plantations until you get calendar.

Have you considered the caravel chain?

 

[Fierabras]

I've set up the caravel chain (which became a galleon chain), but the barb privateer has broken it. I had a decent game up until 1450 AD (2/3 UHV), but I think I should have set up the chain faster. It's 1600 AD now and I'm at 23%.

What is the new research path for the Khmer now that Guilds is a prereq for Optics? I followed: Sailing - Calendar - Currency - Feudalism - Guilds - Compass - Optics - Civil Service to 1450 AD. Is that the right order? It feels a bit slow...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Sailing - Calendar - alphabet - Compass - Paper- Philosophy - Optics
Try to spawn a great spy in Patna (there's a courthouse) or whip one in your capital (if you don't want to take any chances of a great priest) and steal Currency - Feudalism - Guilds - Civil Service -Engineering from China. You can get the in about half the time if you plan it right. Of course you still need the 3 great artists but with Jayakarta and castes/pacifism it should be no problem.

 

[blizzrd]

Founded Athens, then Chalkedon, capture Babylon, capture Diospolis Megale (I would have called it Thebes). Stay with 4 cities until Optics is learnt right near the end, when random city in New Zealand is founded.

Tech path:

Spoiler :

• Masonry
• Priesthood
• Machinery (Oracle)
• Iron Working (Great Engineer)
• Monarchy
• Animal Husbandry and Alphabet (traded from Carthage for Machinery)
• Mathematics (Great Scientist)
• Agriculture and Monotheism (traded from Persia for Metal Casting)
• Aesthetics
• Horseback Riding and Archery (traded from Persia for Machinery)
• Literature
• Construction
• Compass (Great Scientist)
• Calendar
• Meditation
• Drama
• Philosophy
• Feudalism
• Guilds
• Optics (would have researched in 5 turns, bulbed with a Great Scientist with 2 turns to go)
• Currency
• Code of Laws

Wonders:

Spoiler :

Stonehenge prebuilt in Egypt, Pyramids built in Babylon 5 turns after Greek spawn
In order completed:

• Oracle (Babylon)
• Temple of Artemis (Babylon)
• Colossus (Athens)
• Great Lighthouse (Chalkedon)
• Statue of Zeus (Babylon) - Great Engineer
• Moai Statues (Athens)
• Great Library (Babylon)
• Parthenon (Diospolis Megale)
• Great Wall (Athens)
• Leaning Tower (Babylon)
• Colosseum (Chalkedon)
• Shwedagon Paya (Babylon)

Should have saved the Great Engineer for the Mausoleum of Mausollos, which I missed by 3 turns to China. Didn't really need the Statue of Zeus, other than for the Great People points in Babylon, where almost all of my Great People were born (with the exception of the 2nd, which was a Great Scientist in Egypt using 2 specialists).

Missed the Hanging Gardens (in Babylon) by 4 turns. Damn Chinese.

Got the +2 health event one turn after spawning, which was nice. Flipped a warrior in Asia Minor. Most importantly, Babylon built the Pyramids just before I DOWed them.

Didn't get any techs from goody huts, mostly cash (very important) and one scout. Picked up goody huts in Bulgaria (gold), Portugal (via starting galley - Scout - much better for popping huts anyway), Denmark (gold), Ireland (gold), Scotland (gold), South Africa (gold), Eastern Africa (gold x2), Java (gold), Australia (gold x2), New Zealand (map).

If India hadn't collapsed, I probably would have been able to trade for Meditation from them. As it was, nobody would trade it to me and I had to spend 1 turn researching it for myself. I didn't need Calendar, but wanted the Mausoleum. I had two Golden Ages (2/3 UHV and 1GS and 1GM) back-to-back just after China stole the Mausoleum from me.

Sent a Great Merchant to Delhi for +900g (had been independent for a while, then was captured by Persia) and was thus able to keep science at 100% for the entire game.

Could certainly still be done faster in my opinion.

Spoiler :

 

[blizzrd]

1. Is it better to get masonry first before priesthood?

Yes. Masonry gives you access to Marble which vastly improves the commerce output of Athens and Babylon and Chalkedon. Getting this ASAP is more important than starting the Oracle too early. Early Oracle just gives you annoying Great Prophets anyway.

2. How can one not spawn multiple priests (and get other types of great people) because all the early wonders spawn priests? You have to actually build a library to get scientists and a forge to get engineers. Caste system is useless IMHO because you definitely need to chop and whip quickly.

First great person has to be a Great Engineer in Babylon (from the Pyramids). Then use Caste System (switching also to HR once Monarchy is learnt) and hire two scientists to ensure that your second great person is a Great Scientist. Don't build the Great Priest wonders too early. Hire a specialist in Babylon for each Great Prophet wonder to balance the Great Person points. Castes System is vital to manipulate your Great Person points, can't be done without it.

4. Is it better to get a golden age by going for drama/philosophy first or to research the optics route (forgoing the GA)?

If I had saved my Great Engineer (that was otherwise "wasted" on the Statue of Zeus, simply to get more Great Person points in Babylon) for the Mausoleum, I could have extended both of my Golden Ages. Drama and Philosophy before Optics in my opinion.

5. I decided not to go for Babylon this round to avoid the hassles of maintaining an army, and in any case the surrounding culture is hard to combat. Is the blizzrd/Alexander the Great technique really worth it or should you concentrate on Europe and Egypt?

I think it its. Avoid Europe. I went for Chalkedon over Byzantion this time, and I think it is an improvement. Chalkedon has much better early hammers (can work all those hills in Asia Minor) compared to Byzantion and they can both work the same amount of food resources. I was very happy with Chalkedon.

6. I missed out on the copper in Albania because I forgot to get a settler there early on, so Colossus cost quite a bit to build until I hooked up the copper on the Red Sea.

I didn't need the copper in Albania. Just hook up the Egyptian copper ASAP, which is easy enough when you get the free monument via Pyramids on capturing the Egyptian capital. Not that I really needed the copper, I had iron before I had copper anyway.

Is it worth it brave an early war with Rome (who was super nice to me before they collapsed because I had founded Christianity and it spread to him) or miss out on the copper and just whip the Colossus out early on)?

Firstly, you don't need any religion. Raze Jerusalem and don't bother researching Theology. I only got my first Great Priest after I had learnt Feudalism, so I settled him in Babylon for the extra gpt.
Secondly, you don't need to worry about Rome if you don't build towards Europe. Just build a trireme and sail about in the Adriatic ripping up fishing boats after Rome DOWs you, you'll sink their boats eventually (long before any Praetorians walk all the way to Athens) and they will sue for peace.
Thirdly, don't use the whip. I didn't ever adopt Slavery, just making one civic swap to HR/CS once Monarchy was learnt.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Chalkedon is an inspired choice--more food, more hills, prevents spawning of barbs.

Why not Corinth (which would overlap less with Chalkedon and give you 2 more seafood at the expense of a marble which you have 3 of)?

 

[blizzrd]

Chalkedon is an inspired choice--more food, more hills, prevents spawning of barbs.

Indeed, Gordion never spawned.

Why not Corinth (which would overlap less with Chalkedon and give you 2 more seafood at the expense of a marble which you have 3 of)?

My answer is the extra commerce that the working the Marble allows. That translates to an awful lot of beakers over the course of the entire game, given that the Marble on the Corinth tile is the first to be worked in your empire. For most of the game, you don't have enough happiness resources to work 3 seafood anyway. Chalkedon couldn't work the Clam (it's third seafood) for absolutely ages.

Oh, but of course I mined that Marble before I quarried it so as to pump out the first workboat that little bit faster before growing towards size 2.

EDIT: BTW, Corinth only has access to one more seaford (Fish) than Athens. Corinth = 2 fish, 1 Clam. Athens = 1 fish, 1 Clam.

 

[TDK]

I finished my Khmeri game.

My research was Sailing, Calender, Engineering, Currency.

I expanded quickly into India and built up my empire in Slavery and Organized Religion. Revolted to Caste System and Pacifism once the infrastructure was in place.

I decided to try to spread Buddhism through central asia and to Europe, thereby avoiding the religious zealots like Saladin and Isabella. Russia and Germany, on the other hand, are not too sensitive to different religions and will open borders.
I bribed Russia and China into Buddhism and Organized Religion to maximize the chances of them creating missionaries(they did build a few).

All cities that I didn't absolutely need(Sirajis, Kandahar, Merv, Mumbai, Hanoi) was buddhized and their cost externalized to other civs.

The first 2 Artist were used offensively in Anatolian cities. They were very effective and caused other cities to revolt which could then be attacked.

 

[TDK]

Playing as the Khmer as well. Bang Makok, Hanoi and Jayajakarta look like the best first 3 cities. I'm a bit stuck on the 3rd UHV though. How do you get from 20% to 30% Buddhism? Those pesky barb privateers prevent me from reaching Europe fast enough.

Which one is Bang Makok?

Over land! A Caravel chain can only land 1 missionary evey other turn. Did you chain around Africa or through Suez?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I think you should play this one out before declaring victory, simply because you cannot possibly keep your Anatolian cities when Turkey spawns. You have to keep the cities for their culture, no? Also, you need an "average" city size of 10, and those smallish Asia Minor cities can't do that unless you give them away (or if you grow your main cities to 15 or more).

 

[Wessel V1]

Turkey has already spawned I see (independent Sogüt). Never seen that strategy before btw. And the cities are large enough (72/7), so I think we should count it now.

Do you think that "lose no cities before X AD" should count towards a UHV? I'm fine with Russia, since that seems to be solid, but would a Roman or a Mayan virtual UHV count? Okay, I wouldn't try the Maya anyway, since I think that is not in the spirit of the UHV, but for the Romans, I think it would be fine, at least with the Great Wall. And what about Japan? Being the first in score leading by miles seems to be fine, but what do you guys think about it?

 

[TDK]

Turkey did spawn, but they left their only city empty so I grabbed it(bug?). They then re-spawned again and we fought back and forth a bit, with Arabia and the Byzantines too, and eventually signed a peace treaty.
I didn't really need the Anatolian cities, so in hindsight it was probably a waste of resources to get in there. I should just have invested everything in missionaries and an earlier road to Russia, but at that time I didn't know Holland would send 3 workers to the Ukranian plains to build roads(?!), and I also hoped to capture Constantinople and use that route.

 

[Fierabras]

TDK already set another impressive date with the Khmer, but I wanted to post my strategy anyway.

Khmer, 600 AD, 1570 AD UHV.

Founded Bang Makok (1 SW of starting location) on the sugar, used the missionary and switched to Buddhism. Switched to Slavery and OR on the 2nd turn. Founded Hanoi and Jayakarta. Conquered Pagan and Paliputra and razed Delhi. I stuck to my aforementioned research path Sailing - Calendar - Currency - Feudalism - Guilds - Compass - Optics - Civil Service. In 1050 AD after whipping all the important infrastructure I switched to Caste System and Pacifism and generated 3 Great Artists from Jayakarta. I used them all on great works in Hanoi, which gave me the 2 Chinese cities later.

Another important move is to bribe Japan into Buddhism. In this game China and Japan were busy fighting each other because of it and I wasn't bothered by them.

In 1260 AD I was set for the 2/3 UHV, so I switched to Slavery and Free Religion. In my first game I didn't make this switch until after the golden age, which was a mistake. I used the whip to get started on the last UHV condition, but made sure my cities would average above 10 pop. I pre-planted settlers in east India, the southern island and Australia and build some triremes to upgrade them to caravels when I reached Optics. 1 turn before the GA I switched to HR and Bureacracy. The next turn I got the circumnavigation bonus and the chain of caravels was laid down around Africa (no passage through the Suez). I didn't bother with the Aztecs, but gifted the conquerers units to the Inca and opened borders and used a missionary to found Buddhism in Cusqu.

The chain of 8 caravels was working it's magic and I quickly founded Buddhism in Portugal, France, The Netherlands and 2 cities in Germany (Aarhus and Berlin). When I was at 28% I loaded 3 Buddhists on a galleon and sailed them to the Inca. That did it and I reached 32% in 1570 AD. The barbarian privateer that was bothering me in the first game ironically showed up that same turn

Spoiler :

I liked the suggestion by AnotherPacifist to use espionage to speed up research. TDK blew me away. It's obvious that spreading by land is faster, but how he remained stable is a mystery to me (but then again, I'm a noob RFC player, I never played the Khmer before this weekend).

 

[Fierabras]

Turkey did spawn, but they left their only city empty so I grabbed it(bug?). They then re-spawned again and we fought back and forth a bit, with Arabia and the Byzantines too, and eventually signed a peace treaty.
I didn't really need the Anatolian cities, so in hindsight it was probably a waste of resources to get in there. I should just have invested everything in missionaries and an earlier road to Russia, but at that time I didn't know Holland would send 3 workers to the Ukranian plains to build roads(?!), and I also hoped to capture Constantinople and use that route.

You used the Great Artists in Turkey (!). Can you reach 1450 AD without losing those cities and get the UHV culture condition?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I think Fierabras' record should stick until TDK can play out his UHV until 1450's 2/3 UHV. TDK used an exploit that was supposed to be fixed by the last patch. And with Khmer stability biases (food-wise) it is very possible that he might lose those cities with culture.
Unorthodox but interesting strategy though.