New challenge: Spaceship victories with production poor civs

[AnotherPacifist]

I finally did it, purely by luck (see below).

Started out with Oaxaca and sent 2nd settler to New Orleans (just beyond flip zone for Aztecs). Of course that means lots of experience fighting dog soldiers. Almost didn't get Calendar in time (made the mistake of researching bronze working before calendar). Then it's land grab (filling the whole NA by 1700 before America spawns). I stalled with trying to get Astronomy in the 1600's due to the size of my empire but I sat it out, and with Aztecs and Incans being vassals I directed them to research what I needed together with the occasional begging for money.

America spawns--gave them a useless island which became their capital, but unfortunately they vassalized to Spain. Then there were 5 or 6 world wars (with France, me and my vassals, Germany, Netherlands, Russia, Mali on one side and Britain, Spain, America, Turkey on the other) which I did not participate directly, thanks to the distance between me and everybody else. I did sink some destroyers.

Beelined for biology, medicine, and computers. The AI seems to neglect the importance of the Internet which gave me 9 free techs!!

Russia seems to neglect Siberia completely in 1.18 and just built 8 core cities which are super productive. It became a tech powerhouse and almost built the damn spaceship (they actually researched Fusion first in the 1960's and built everything except for the engines), but stupid Stalin must have switched civics from hereditary rule because he collapsed in 1976. Nobody by then had my techs and production power and I launched in 1992. Mongolia overtook me in score (because he had Turkey as a vassal) though.

I almost got voted a diplomatic victory (if Russia didn't collapse I would have needed just 100 more votes from somebody).

 

[Barak]

Just tried the Maya, Rhye really made the UP must less effective.

 

[mushyman]

Nice one, Pacifist. I've given up on my Maya game - after I finally researched Scientific Method in 1850 odd and saw that Biology was going to take 24 turns! My empire was somewhat less massive than yours

I am going to start again with a much less lofty goal - launch a spaceship as the Dutch

America spawns--gave them a useless island which became their capital, but unfortunately they vassalized to Spain.

Is this really necessary? I don't like doing things like this, it's far too much of an exploit of the mechanics for my liking (plus, looks like Rhye is going to nerf it next patch anyway).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Is this really necessary? I don't like doing things like this, it's far too much of an exploit of the mechanics for my liking (plus, looks like Rhye is going to nerf it next patch anyway).

It's actually quite important since Washington's culture is rather massive and takes out my iron, stone and 2 coals. And then they can send their 4 settlers to found 2 cities in the Carolinas/Florida (while right now I had enough culture to block them). Also, if I didn't have good relationships with them from the start they would have annihilated my longbowmen with their riflemen (negative 4 from close borders).
PLUS I wouldn't have gotten Washington handed to me in a congress if it was a capital.

Has anybody noticed how close-minded George Washington is whenever America spawns? No automatic open borders, extortionist tech trades, often mercantilistic and slave-owning.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I am going to start again with a much less lofty goal - launch a spaceship as the Dutch

The Dutch are probably the most powerful "small" civ. Their dikes are like Moai Statues for each city plus the river hammers. I'm almost finished building the spaceship with them. Had a really lucky start when Frankfurt was razed by the French and not rebuilt. So I was able to build a new Frankfurt and it was the key to collapsing Germany due to my culture (I built Notre Dame there). The new Germany AI always builds Hamburg which leads to their downfall every time. The fact that now optics needs guilds is good for the Dutch since they start out with it, so everybody is lagging in exploring (well, maybe excepting the Portuguese, but they spawn too late). I then proceeded to conquer half the world (America, northern SA, all of Aztec land but they respawned, southern Africa, my only city in Australia, and all of Europe except for England). I have at various times for vassals England, Inca, Portuguese, Persia (the Portuguese collapsed due to my culture in Spain). I'm building spaceship parts in 2-4 turns each (also had the space elevator). My Frankfurt is pulling over 300 hammers each turn!!

Correction: Frankfurt ('s-Gravenhage) had 460 hammers per turn.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, so the Greeks aren't really poor in production, the real problem is that they don't have enough space to expand, being hemmed in by the Romans, Germans, Russians and later the Turks (really annoying). You need at least 7-8 good cities to build a spaceship in time. Athens, one city in the Balkans (with copper) and another city in Turkey (which will need a palace to block the Turks) is only 3.

Looking at the spawn map, it appears that between Germany and Russia there's a sliver of space where Novgorod and 1 west of Kiev which won't flip. Obviously not optimal but can be good production cities, so 2 more (which will need to be defended well and I'll be on bad terms with both Russia and Germany--not good. Expansion instability will be a problem too.

Then there's the all-important American lands (New Orleans, Denver and Chicago and Caracas) after my conquerors will give me 4 good cities with oil and aluminum.

Planning to use the circumnavigation and discovering the techs for my 2/3 UHV. The temple of Artemis is almost always built by somebody else and isn't really crucial anyway (unlike Moai, Oracle, Colossus and Parthenon are really important and synergistic). Have to squeeze in time to build settlers...

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

OK, so the Greeks aren't really poor in production, the real problem is that they don't have enough space to expand, being hemmed in by the Romans, Germans, Russians and later the Turks (really annoying). You need at least 7-8 good cities to build a spaceship in time. Athens, one city in the Balkans (with copper) and another city in Turkey (which will need a palace to block the Turks) is only 3.

I would also found Tyras(?). it is south of the iron ill and NE of the horse along the Black Sea. It is a production Powerhouse.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I would also found Tyras(?). it is south of the iron ill and NE of the horse along the Black Sea. It is a production Powerhouse.

But it's in Turkey's spawn space. I don't want any war that unless it's forced on me.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

This was an interesting game. So as I haven't played the Greeks for a while, I didn't realize that those workboats were replaced with a galley and a settler, which makes it terribly hard to get the Oracle in time, but good if you're expansionist. Now, several times I spawned with the galley east of Athens, which is OK if you want to found Ephesus as your capital, but I found out later that the Romans are terrible and want that copper all to themselves preventing me from building the Colossus in time. So instead, one of these starts I have the galley WEST of Athens, and built my capital in Epidamnos, which had the Moai Statues and innumerable other wonders. I founded Corinth in order not to cramp out Ephesus/Sogut (which is necessary in order to make sure Byzantion doesn't get crowded out by Turkey)--it had a palace prebuilt at the last moment in 1260. Ephesus will grow if it has windmills and Cereal Mills.

Rome flipped to me after I settled a Great Artist very early, and when the French took all of Caesar's cities he collapsed.

The Romans built Budapest (called something else) which was just outside my Great Wall, so eventually they lost it to barbs. Luckily for me, Budapest flipped to me just before the Germans spawned, so they didn't get all those barb horse archers and swordsmen, and it was very Greek which caused it to revolt 9-10 times. Finally flipped to me in the late 1700's.

The 3rd city which was crucial was Mykenai (just in between the German and Russian spawn zones). I switched to Free Speech very early (since my Ephesus wasn't very productive for Bureaucracy and I didn't want to build another palace), so my culture was overwhelming on either side. Eventually Germany collapsed in the late 1800's and I got Berlin.

Had Aztecs, Incans, Turks, Portuguese, Egyptians and Malians as my vassals (and Ethiopia as my grandchild vassal), which pissed off all the other Europeans and there were several world wars, all of which I settled with cash in my pocket due to my superior tech. Slowed down my research a lot but I made it up by selling outdated techs to my vassals. Towards the end France was so annoying I decided to raze Milan and Hamburg, and they capitulated too.

This was also a game where I made the mistake of founding Denver but not founding Chicago first. As you can see, even with all my culture in Argos/Denver, 79% Greekness is not enough to flip a tile. Took some Appalachian mountains though. If Chicago was founded first then I could have denied the Americans to the Midwest and my Argos would have all the resources. They had to go to Canada and Alaska to get oil though.

Built Syracuse early (it was a Greek colony after all before the Romans came), and some modern hippies want to refound Knossos to complete my empire so I let them.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Their problem is lack of time. Have to grow all those big juicy cities in America and South Africa in time to build a spaceship is tough. Compass, Optics, Astronomy to start with, and use the 13 colonies/most mapped world as my 2/3 UHV triumphal arch. (Opening borders is tough with 11 civs in 600AD).
Cities: New Orleans, Chicago (won't make the same mistake again), Denver, Grand Rapids, Caracas, and 2-3 in Brazil. Still need Casablanca and 2 in South Africa, and maybe 1 in Australia. Got to get Communism quickly...

Then there's the problem of Russia and her fast tech rate and phenomenal production. Maybe I'll befriend Germany to invade Russia...

 

[mushyman]

Good lord, you are a monster Pacifist. Do you do anything other than play this mod?

I completed my Dutch spaceship game this weekend - I agree they are one of the most powerful of the smaller civs (that's why I picked them really ). Very different tactics from you though - I ignored any conquering in Europe and went for a powerbase in Africa, Australia and Mexico (unfortunately the Incas slipped the net with an exploring workboat, so I didn't get the conquerors event for them, but they did vassalize to me). The only reason I conquered France is because they DOW'd me late in the modern era, so I razed Paris and conquered the rest of France in about 4 turns
Silly France, I have Modern Armour!

On the subject of Russia - in this game they did quite a bit of Siberia colonizing, getting about 2/3rds of the way across (and towards Mongol territory) before collapsing sometime late 19th/early 20th century. I must admit I've not seen any "core of super-productive cities" Russian empires in my games.

I have to say though, I may have to lay off any more serious modern era games until I get a new PC - load times were not pleasant

 

[AnotherPacifist]

When going down to South America I always take the long route (i.e. go by east of the Falklands and then straight across) and hope I miss the dreaded Incan workboat. Their lands aren't of much use anyway, but the free troops will conquer Tucume and from there they can go to northern SA and save me from bringing troops home. I see you conquered Mexico which is very productive (if only Tenochtitlan was on the coast you could have a more productive city with a dike).
And I was going to go for your overseas expansion strategy except I saw that glimmer of a loophole that France created when they razed Frankfurt but didn't found Strasbourg yet. History was made on silly little things like that.

 

[Rhye]

Good lord, you are a monster Pacifist. Do you do anything other than play this mod?

not until I provide him new challenges!
The new patch could be called "Pacifist's patch" for it includes various fixes to contain his aggression!

 

[AnotherPacifist]

not until I provide him new challenges!
The new patch could be called "Pacifist's patch" for it includes various fixes to contain his aggression!

LOL!!
Yes, we pacifists will take over the world. Eventually.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Done in 1970 (could have been sooner) with a Louis XIV score.
The key is to NEVER antagonize Spain, even if it means giving them whatever they want. (Of course by the end I could have crushed them like a bug, but I never declared war on anybody.)
Actually the Portuguese are very powerful, since their stability doesn't take as much a hit as other "small" empires, as almost the entire South American continent is within their expansion area, plus all the extra buildings that each new city has. I ended up with 17 cities, founding 5 of them right at the end, and I found out that the UHV victory trumps the spaceship victory (I actually got most explored map in 1500 and 12 countries with open borders in 1650). Had America, Inca, Aztec (who due to my culture was exiled to Chichen Itza), France (who vassalized after Germany declared war), Mali, and Khmer as vassals, all done peacefully except for Inca/Aztec. Built all the modern wonders from Forbidden Palace onwards (thanks to a GE which built it in New Orleans, which housed the Statue of Liberty too). Taking over North America is definitely a must for any civ to win the spaceship.

 

[Riker]

I've just finished the Malinese game. Bismark has beaten me to the internet and the space elevator. I managed to launch around 2000ad. But, three turns earlier Roosvelt did the same... I hoped that I could arrive first, having built two engines (I actually started from them...) but Carthage declared independence just in time to make me lose two thrusters at 1-2 turns from completion. In the end, I lost but it's doable.
I noticed ravening independents, who launched nukes around and decided to attack my seafood and coastal cities with stealth destroyers, without being attacked...

farewell

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I've just finished the Malinese game. Bismark has beaten me to the internet and the space elevator. I managed to launch around 2000ad. But, three turns earlier Roosvelt did the same... I hoped that I could arrive first, having built two engines (I actually started from them...) but Carthage declared independence just in time to make me lose two thrusters at 1-2 turns from completion. In the end, I lost but it's doable.
I noticed ravening independents, who launched nukes around and decided to attack my seafood and coastal cities with stealth destroyers, without being attacked...

farewell

Good job. I had basically given up on the 3000BC start for Mali, but haven't had the patience to start the 600 AD game yet. You're giving me some hope.
I'm going to try playing as the Mongolians first (equally behind in tech because of late start but lots of land to conquer, and doable 2/3 UHV for arch).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So Genghis Khan had a dream of flying to the moon. (or was he abducted by an alien?)
He conquered China the usual way (helped initially by a plague to which he was immune because he just spawned). Founded 4 productive cities in Siberia. Razed 7 cities by 1500. Went for culture and science early (education, optics, astronomy). Made Qufu the most learned city in the world (3 monasteries, library/observatory/university/academy/channel tunnel) and the most commercial city (trading company/wall street/bank/lighthouse/custom house/grocer/market/settled 3 great priests) Even founded Aluminum company. He was almost tempted to move the capital there but realized that with all his cities free speech was more important.
Built every wonder after Statue of Liberty (except he missed the Pentagon by 3 moves to Germany). His most productive city is Hanoi with over 200 hammers. Saved all the jungle around Patna and built National Park there.

The only thing missing was aluminum which was found in Australia (Darwin being independent due to the collapse of England).

He never declared war on anybody after conquering China, but his good relationship with Turkey (to whom he gave Merv to boost his science rate) led to escalating wars with Germany, who one day through the AP had everybody declare war on him. Eventually he bought peace with a tech to each civ.

Shortly after the spaceship arrived, the alien went back to his home planet. Genghis woke up the next day and razed every city in the world.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Biology (and its offspring, Medicine) = science parity. Decided to claim all of SA for myself (didn't need aluminum, oil and other metals), and when my workers were done, I chopped all the Amazonian forest out and replaced them with farms and windmills. Even got the Galapagos as a tourist attraction (I think whoever builds a city in the Galapagos should get some money for the turtles). Founded Cereal Mills, Aluminum Co and Standard Ethanol. The only thing standing between my victory 10 years earlier was America beating me to the Space Elevator by 3 turns.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Carthage (or Rome) are probably the best civs to win an early spaceship victory. (I was in the modern era in the early 1700's) Went for the usual Rome squatting, got very lucky because China had a city captured by barbs and collapsed, so I was able to build ALL the wonders except for Oracle, Temple of Artemis and Shwedagon Paya (could have built the last one if I wanted it but since I already have liberalism it wasn't worth it). (I never build the Mausoleum or Hanging Gardens in time if China's alive)

The importance of early Free Speech can't be underestimated (in fact I never used bureaucracy). Built 1 city in southern Poland and eventually had ALL of Poland by culture. Germany gave me Milan because my culture was so dominant. Flipped Sennar (Ethiopian), Kauen (German), Goteborg (Viking turned independent turned German), Jacksonville (American), Lyon (French), Spolato (Roman turned independent). Almost flipped Jerusalem and Babylon, had to fight Turkish culture tile by tile. Built another palace in Gordium and got Iskenderum by an early conference which helped a lot.

BTW, if you don't want war, just don't sign any defensive pacts, and build the UN quickly. There were only 2 conferences in the entire game.

Eventually the whole Mediterranean and Black Seas, most of the Caribbean and Red Seas were mine. (Instead of a Roman lake the Mediterranean was Carthaginian)

Made the mistake of colonizing America. Set my science back probably 40% even though I got 3 great cities from it. Made me so unstable that I had to use Police state and Nationhood to stabilize (and also to slow down my culture). Finally built the spaceship in 1988 (could have been 1900).

----------

BTW, Spaceship victory trumps cultural victory (just found out because Roma, Athens were already legendary, while Constantinople hit legendary at the same move that the spaceship arrived). So we have:
UHV>Spaceship>Cultural

Anybody want to work out where domination fits in there?