New civ : Dagda's Tears

[sylvain5477]

with a range of 4, it's not all that defensive. aggressive defense, I guess. but you should probably reduce the range to 2 or 3

Okay, Lust tears now are WAY overpowered. Even though they're one turn unit, its just too much. Im going to second WarKirby on reducing range to at least 3 but maybe even 2. Their attack strength can be debatable, but to keep em on par with warriors to begin with, however open for upgrade after a short while would make for better scaling IMO.

I could reduce to base +3 str / 2 mvt, and they would be upgraded later on by the usual promos.

Update of thought: I also feel I have to iterate my opinion on Digesting Tear strength. While the blobs are all blobs, the digesting tears are munching material and resource, they're not defenders of the realm. Base defense 5, 7 on root is a bit too heavy so early on, would like to see scaling here aswell.

I would prefer them to be last to defend, but they should not die too easily else you do not have research anymore. Consider that they are duration limited, so they should not be too hard to overcome. Also, considering you should have less unit than normal civs, the Digesting Tears are a way to defend against stack of weak units, as each victory generates a new one to defend for the next attack.

EDIT : they should bne base defense 3 / 5 on roots ! not 5/ 7 on roots.
Do your Digesting Tears have the "SIZE : Weak" promo ?
Have you research Drama yet ?

Did I say YAAAAY! for the instant bridges?

It seems you just did.

Update of concern: Im not getting any dry tear roots on my converted bareland now. Does this require a tech? (Hadnt noticed before if thats the case). Im distressed by reduced movement!

Update of doombug: Not only am I not getting dry tear roots but I can re-root on barelands.

Definitly a bug. Consequence of too fast released to take care of your comments quickly. Unfortunately I cannot procede to change at this time, but I'll investigate as soon as I have some time (it should be fairly easy).
Which version are you using ?

Update of curiosity: Did you increase spawning in the recent patches. I realized that this game around I got like 50% more Wilds.

Hum, no
That's one weak point, that I currently have no control on spawning rate, as I used the default.
It may come later.

 

[Suuljin]

- digesting tears used to be 0/3. playing 0.1.9 they became 0/5 (base def, not taking boni from techs into account). they weren't effected by symbiosis either.
is that because i absorbed new forest and jungle with dagdas' early on? both increase def by 1 for the hero (which was listed in the pedia as normal unit last i checked), but should they also boost all other units?

Update of thought: I also feel I have to iterate my opinion on Digesting Tear strength. While the blobs are all blobs, the digesting tears are munching material and resource, they're not defenders of the realm. Base defense 5, 7 on root is a bit too heavy so early on, would like to see scaling here aswell.

so? were they boosted by dagdas tear's feature absorbation (+1 def for new forest and jungle) or was it a direct boost of their base def? they did have the tearling promo (the weakest one) and got further boosted by getting digesting I, II etc...

since you didn't comment it i wasn't sure if you were just too busy to read it yet or if the idea seems unfitting:
what do you think about giving sadness tears a cargo slot to transport love tears across oceans? they will still be rather slow until you research water symbiosis, but it would help with water-based maps alot.

[edit: typos]

 

[Rickie_Rain]

Base defense strength is currently at 5, no additional promos or anything, which, seen from another civs point of view, is crazy. Hence why I'd like to see some scaling on it rather than starting at that and quite a lot later on gain teched strength.

Im playing latest version, testing again to check on the dry tear roots. Unless someone else confirms Ill try a fresh install of Tears FF.

Update of sucess: I spy dry tear roots. Wonder what it could've been about.

Update of peculiarity: I just finished my Love tear, and voila, all Dry Tear Roots (only 2 though barelands finished so far though) vanished.
Update of interest: New bareland finished, with new dry tear roots intact. Problem is though, on the ones were the root is gone, I can re-root from beginning.
Update of confusion: I created another Love tear, no crazy impact on the dry tear root system this time around.

 

[WarKirby]

What's crazy about 5 defense strength? That's what archers get, in addition to hill and city defense bonuses, and a ranged attack. And axemen get 5 defense too.

 

[sylvain5477]

what do you think about giving sadness tears a cargo slot to transport love tears across oceans? they will still be rather slow until you research water symbiosis, but it would help with water-based maps alot.

I may have another solution to your problem, but I do not really lke the micromanagement of cargo, and the IA does not manage it so well I think.

But I need some times to implement as it is not so simple to create the new mecanic I'm thinking of

 

[sylvain5477]

Base defense strength is currently at 5, no additional promos or anything, which, seen from another civs point of view, is crazy. Hence why I'd like to see some scaling on it rather than starting at that and quite a lot later on gain teched strength.

XML bug, corrected in v0.1.13

Im playing latest version, testing again to check on the dry tear roots. Unless someone else confirms Ill try a fresh install of Tears FF.

Update of sucess: I spy dry tear roots. Wonder what it could've been about.

Update of peculiarity: I just finished my Love tear, and voila, all Dry Tear Roots (only 2 though barelands finished so far though) vanished.
Update of interest: New bareland finished, with new dry tear roots intact. Problem is though, on the ones were the root is gone, I can re-root from beginning.
Update of confusion: I created another Love tear, no crazy impact on the dry tear root system this time around.

Odd.
I'll try to reproduce

 

[sylvain5477]

v0.1.13 released

 

[Rickie_Rain]

Fresh Tear install with 1.13. My first Love tear causes all dry tear roots to vanish still.

Update: It happened when I created my second Love this time around. Or its strangely well coinciding with an eventual timer you placed on the dry tear roots. Either way, not good =(
Update: I actually even lost other roots aswell, so I can make new waking tears on existing gestating ones for example. I could MegaUpload this savegame, should you like.

 

[Suuljin]

did it remove all roots, or just the roots next to the city that build the love tear? in the later case it could have something to do with the area-flattening function of the love tear. checked it already?

[edit1: did a thorough test run.
i can confirm that building a love tear erases dry tear roots next to the city and that once the dry roots are gone, bareland can be re-rooted. the other roots (checked with all ages) were still shown on the map and could be worked for the correct yields of their according age. they didn't give movemet boni anymore though. organised tears could take root on them again which reseted the age of the roots to waking roots, giving the correct yields for them and all following stages of evolution.

also, after building the love tear you could take roots on the dry tear root of the city (the only one which was still shown as dry tear) and it reseted the age like all others.

however, after a gestating root (which could have been re-rooted) became a dry root, the dry root blocked organised tears from re-rooting the plot.

all of this was tested for the direct vicinity of the city (3x3 plots). will test the far end of the BFC later]

[edit2, a little oddity:
i had 3 tear regulator buildings in my capital: -10%, - 20% and - 100% (and +40% from mature heart) which added up to - 90% production. is this meant to be or should they replace the weaker building (like the old altar of the luonnotar bug)? to double-check i killed all my organised tears (by clicking 'erase unit') and got +10%, +20% and +100% (and +40% for the mature heart) which added up to 170%. after i build a new organised tear, the entire bonus disappered along with the 3 regulator buildings.]

 

[odalrick]

Another bug related to dry roots. In a recent game I conquered a city. It was razed but there was a dry root genereated below the ruins, thereby protecting that tile from being absorbed.

 

[sylvain5477]

Fresh Tear install with 1.13. My first Love tear causes all dry tear roots to vanish still.

Update: It happened when I created my second Love this time around. Or its strangely well coinciding with an eventual timer you placed on the dry tear roots. Either way, not good =(
Update: I actually even lost other roots aswell, so I can make new waking tears on existing gestating ones for example. I could MegaUpload this savegame, should you like.

did it remove all roots, or just the roots next to the city that build the love tear? in the later case it could have something to do with the area-flattening function of the love tear. checked it already?

[edit1: did a thorough test run.
i can confirm that building a love tear erases dry tear roots next to the city and that once the dry roots are gone, bareland can be re-rooted. the other roots (checked with all ages) were still shown on the map and could be worked for the correct yields of their according age. they didn't give movemet boni anymore though. organised tears could take root on them again which reseted the age of the roots to waking roots, giving the correct yields for them and all following stages of evolution.

also, after building the love tear you could take roots on the dry tear root of the city (the only one which was still shown as dry tear) and it reseted the age like all others.

however, after a gestating root (which could have been re-rooted) became a dry root, the dry root blocked organised tears from re-rooting the plot.

all of this was tested for the direct vicinity of the city (3x3 plots). will test the far end of the BFC later]

[edit2, a little oddity:
i had 3 tear regulator buildings in my capital: -10%, - 20% and - 100% (and +40% from mature heart) which added up to - 90% production. is this meant to be or should they replace the weaker building (like the old altar of the luonnotar bug)? to double-check i killed all my organised tears (by clicking 'erase unit') and got +10%, +20% and +100% (and +40% for the mature heart) which added up to 170%. after i build a new organised tear, the entire bonus disappered along with the 3 regulator buildings.]

Another bug related to dry roots. In a recent game I conquered a city. It was razed but there was a dry root genereated below the ruins, thereby protecting that tile from being absorbed.

Wouah.
No time yet to check this point, but I'll do it today.
about the regulator it was previously not working, seems I corrected something unvolontarly and it now works
It serves when building organized tear to help if you have too little and make it harder when you have too much (per city number).


Tell me what the effect do to you to see if it should be removed (not sure myself yet).

 

[sylvain5477]

Ok i found it.
The req for the spell was actually removing roots

v0.1.14

 

[Rickie_Rain]

Yay for bug fix and yay for what at least I consider well balanced Lust Tears ^^.

However, again Im pondering on the whole tear-role thing. Should anything but combat tears really have Lust spellcast?
While we're trying to make sure the civ is enjoyable and doesnt get silly in corners, we cant forget what it may be like to meet them. Digesting and Organizing tears are esentially worker units, and not needing to protect them much at all feels slightly overpowered.
Thoughts anyone?

 

[sylvain5477]

I was actually thinking of adding a max damage to the lust (like illusion units), so that you would need backup to finish the units.

 

[Rickie_Rain]

I hadn't thought of that. Me likes.
Still, I want thoughts on the Lust@worker units stuff. =)

Edit*: I know its ultimately your call on implementations but I just want to provide feedback, ideas and discussions that aid in balancing the Tears.

 

[sylvain5477]

I hadn't thought of that. Me likes.
Still, I want thoughts on the Lust@worker units stuff. =)

Edit*: I know its ultimately your call on implementations but I just want to provide feedback, ideas and discussions that aid in balancing the Tears.

Well, well, you are very Welcome to do so !
And more people doing so would be even better as:
+ it is very motivating to go on
+ it provides different ideas
+ it allows faster bug discovery

So please keep proposing ideas!

 

[odalrick]

I've been wondering what the intent behind duration limited workers is and whether there isn't a better way to handle it.

It's quite annoying because it introduces so much micromanagement. And despite there being only one improvement to build, I can't automate the workers since they will think nothing of moving to the other side of the map.

Improvements could be built like fishing nets, destroying the organized tear. The technological advances in workers could be replaced by giving a chance for dying organized tears to spawn a replacement.

Or the duration could tick down only while building an improvement. The only way I know that could be done is by making a spell that builds the improvement. Maybe it could be done some other way.

Or the whole mess with build orders could be removed completely. Give organized tears an autoaquired promotion when it is a on root. That promotion degrades to another promotion with duration 4 and which holds the tear. When that promotion in turn degrades, PythonOnRemove places a root in the tile and applies some cost (lowered duration, remove some marker promotions, deal damage to the tear (the tear would have to be unhealing) ) to the organized tear. If this solution is favoured, keeping the build orders would probably be a good idea, so that one could automate the workers and have them automatically seek out undigested terrain.

 

[sylvain5477]

It's quite annoying because it introduces so much micromanagement. And despite there being only one improvement to build, I can't automate the workers since they will think nothing of moving to the other side of the map.

Have you tried using the auto worker build network action ?
I do so and it removes all micromanagement from Organized tears.

Please try and tell me whether it solves your problem. Else I'll review your options.

 

[spriditis]

Very interesting Civ!

I really like the land transformation mechanic. I've even sent worker units into enemy borders and have had them create roots inside their borders. However, I noticed that after I did this the enemy city could work the root. It went through the usual stages and even created a pride unit (!) under their control.

-John

 

[sylvain5477]

Very interesting Civ!

I really like the land transformation mechanic. I've even sent worker units into enemy borders and have had them create roots inside their borders. However, I noticed that after I did this the enemy city could work the root. It went through the usual stages and even created a pride unit (!) under their control.

-John

LOL !
Actually you should NOT be able to send workers inside ennemy territory (as I used the <bRivalTerritoryBlock>1</bRivalTerritoryBlock> in th XML, hum, guess this one is not orking as I thought)...
I'll have to make adjustment so that the generated Tear is barbarian if the owner of the tile is not a Tear Civ.

The strangest is that the ennemy could still work the tile. Do you have screnn shot when the IA was working the Tear tile ?