New civ : Dagda's Tears

[FireBlaze]

Actually, the ability to plant in enemy territory is awesome, but that's just my opinion

 

[sylvain5477]

It could be done but only if I can make it impossible for the enemy to work the tile.

 

[Rickie_Rain]

Well, none should be able to gain anything from the tears but the tears save for....<MAYBE> 1-2 production. Once you kill the biomass you can put it to use but its certainly not edible, nor profitable. Actually it could be, depending on if some crazy as mage-scientists would be interested.
My idea on it would be to have its base on 2 hammers or 1 hammer and 1 gold for other civs, and maybe you can just add modification to the Tears civ bits to compensate back to where it should be.
Thoughts?

Edit*: Can you make sure that tears wont spawn or be barbarian in others territories btw? Otherwise I'd imagine you would just want to block it from being possible to do inside others borders.
Edit**: Do you need to work over some things for patch C? Im gonna try this but its good to know if something might go ballistic that isn't related to start of the game.

Answered itself. Tons of XML errors, hope you can get it sorted soonishly =)

 

[odalrick]

Have you tried using the auto worker build network action ?
I do so and it removes all micromanagement from Organized tears.

Please try and tell me whether it solves your problem. Else I'll review your options.

I've tried using autobuild network and it works much better. There is still an issue that the AI will waste turns by trying to move too far and ending on a root of some kind.

I still think that making duration not count down on roots of any kind, including dry roots, would be good.

 

[sylvain5477]

I've tried using autobuild network and it works much better. There is still an issue that the AI will waste turns by trying to move too far and ending on a root of some kind.

I still think that making duration not count down on roots of any kind, including dry roots, would be good.

You actually, to my undestanding, if you come with another tear to the same place it will not start from stract but will continue from where the previous Tears already did, thus nt wasting any turn (like for farms of cottage if you stop producton and come back 2 turns later).

But I'll consider, although it may be a bit difficult to do as you propose, and one may stock Organized Tears this way (which i do not like).

 

[sylvain5477]

Well, none should be able to gain anything from the tears but the tears save for....<MAYBE> 1-2 production. Once you kill the biomass you can put it to use but its certainly not edible, nor profitable. Actually it could be, depending on if some crazy as mage-scientists would be interested.
My idea on it would be to have its base on 2 hammers or 1 hammer and 1 gold for other civs, and maybe you can just add modification to the Tears civ bits to compensate back to where it should be.
Thoughts?

The issue is that if one work a Rooted Tear tile, the TYear will evolve (not flavor wise is it?). But it can be pillage in the first stage to clear ones territory.

Edit*: Can you make sure that tears wont spawn or be barbarian in others territories btw? Otherwise I'd imagine you would just want to block it from being possible to do inside others borders.|/QUOTE]

I should be able to.

Edit**: Do you need to work over some things for patch C? Im gonna try this but its good to know if something might go ballistic that isn't related to start of the game.

Answered itself. Tons of XML errors, hope you can get it sorted soonishly =)

Sure, I'll do it for v0.2, until then just keep your current install please .

 

[odalrick]

You actually, to my undestanding, if you come with another tear to the same place it will not start from stract but will continue from where the previous Tears already did, thus nt wasting any turn (like for farms of cottage if you stop producton and come back 2 turns later).

But I'll consider, although it may be a bit difficult to do as you propose, and one may stock Organized Tears this way (which i do not like).

I'm talking about when the AI decides to send the tear to the other side of the empire for some reason. It moves, ends the turn on a dry root, duration counts down. I don't know how big the difference is, but my impression is that it wastes about 25% of the organized tear lifetime.

Using two tears or abandoning a build also costs more duration than necessary, but that's a better trade off, since you get the root faster as well. Boosting their movement so that they could start the root instantly would help with that.

And it would be possible to stock organized tears, but why would you want to? And isn't there a production penalty if you have many organized tears?

It's quite easy to do, an bAutoAcquire, bMustMaintain promotion with PrereqImprovements for roots and +1 iDurationPerTurn . I'll do it as a module if I can find the time.

 

[spriditis]

LOL !
Actually you should NOT be able to send workers inside ennemy territory (as I used the <bRivalTerritoryBlock>1</bRivalTerritoryBlock> in th XML, hum, guess this one is not orking as I thought)...
I'll have to make adjustment so that the generated Tear is barbarian if the owner of the tile is not a Tear Civ.

The strangest is that the ennemy could still work the tile. Do you have screnn shot when the IA was working the Tear tile ?

Here's a save game, if you need it, of the Hippus working a rooted tile next to their city.

 

[Valkrionn]

You actually, to my undestanding, if you come with another tear to the same place it will not start from stract but will continue from where the previous Tears already did, thus nt wasting any turn (like for farms of cottage if you stop producton and come back 2 turns later).

But I'll consider, although it may be a bit difficult to do as you propose, and one may stock Organized Tears this way (which i do not like).

Duration altering is easy, at least the method described... Autoacquire promo, requires Organized Tear and Root, <iDurationPerTurn> of 1, and MustMaintain so it's lost when you step off the root.

Edit: Damn, really need to read the full thread before I post... Odalrick already said this.

 

[Rickie_Rain]

On the root tile subject again. Is it possible to make it evolve into another type of tear rather than the regular. Upon which case you could make it last very shortly as an alternative to pillaging. I know this is all very tedious business for something so silly as other civs will rarely find such a low output interesting at all, but just thought it would be funny.
Another thought, should rooted tears around enemy cities cause unhealthyness, maybe?

Update of spam: PROMOTION_TEAR_REINCARNATE (0) keeps spamming my log atm.
Update of crash: Seems I just got my first DT CTD. I'll try to figure out the cause.

 

[sylvain5477]

Alright all, I'm a bit out of time just now, but I'll try as soon as possible to:
+ convert to patch C
+ finished the 0.2 release

Then I'll consider your ideas about the duration for 0.2.x patches

 

[sylvain5477]

Duration altering is easy, at least the method described... Autoacquire promo, requires Organized Tear and Root, <iDurationPerTurn> of 1, and MustMaintain so it's lost when you step off the root.

Edit: Damn, really need to read the full thread before I post... Odalrick already said this.

I'm talking about when the AI decides to send the tear to the other side of the empire for some reason. It moves, ends the turn on a dry root, duration counts down. I don't know how big the difference is, but my impression is that it wastes about 25% of the organized tear lifetime.

Using two tears or abandoning a build also costs more duration than necessary, but that's a better trade off, since you get the root faster as well. Boosting their movement so that they could start the root instantly would help with that.

And it would be possible to stock organized tears, but why would you want to? And isn't there a production penalty if you have many organized tears?

It's quite easy to do, an bAutoAcquire, bMustMaintain promotion with PrereqImprovements for roots and +1 iDurationPerTurn . I'll do it as a module if I can find the time.

I've tried using autobuild network and it works much better. There is still an issue that the AI will waste turns by trying to move too far and ending on a root of some kind.

I still think that making duration not count down on roots of any kind, including dry roots, would be good.

The point 9 should interest you (v0.2 release)

9] Removed duration for Organized Tears, replaced by a chance of dying when rooting a Tear, this chance increasing depending of the relation "total number of organized Tears / total population".

 

[odalrick]

Great, I think that will work much better.

 

[sylvain5477]

OK, after testing a new game with this setting, it indeed smooth things a lot. One can spend hammers to increase the rate of improvement spamming but it becomes exponentially expensive as then most Tears will be destroyed at each Rooting. But on th eotehr end, when having few Organized Tears, they stay for long, slowly rooting.
Thank you all for your suggestions on the matter and your insistance about the need to change things.

Also about the Rooting of Tear sin Ennemy territory, I think I'll make things evolve there as well, to allow for rooting to occur, but slighty reduce the malus for the waking Tear, and make the the Tear be used-up after some turns if not in Tear territory. This way one can build like a "fort" in a Tear way in ennemy territory on the tile of its army (and then Lust comes into play! beware !), but one can hardly easily spam an ennemy with Tear to economically kill him/her (still possible but expensive).

 

[Rickie_Rain]

Will you change life extension into some other form of function? Perhaps add a rooting speeder somewhere in the tech tree? Only one turn reduction somewhere would be pretty nice and adds to the builder player tech lines.

Update of thought: Aha! I got it, reduced rooting time in "harsh" enviroments like ice and marsh etc. That'd be nice to have somewhere ^^

Update of curiousity: Whats your lore view of Dagda's Tear? Is it simply munching up everything "living" in order to create a total equilibrium or is it a somewhat evolving biomass crunching more and more? With the first, hearts (cities) should eventually wither away as the would serve no purpose, however if this thing wants to consume more, it would eat to the depths aswell. My hope is for the latter because with that said one can have an improvement (Burrowing Tear) to actually make tiles workable again in later game which in turn revives old hearts as production centers. Maybe not much, but combined with building(s?) (Earth Lung?) that increase the production flatly, it still gives hearts a long-term purpose in the game.

Update of gaming: Im quite pleased with how the Lust Tear assault strategy works out. I bridged 2 continents and the Ljosalfar started attacking me, and I amassed a defense Pride, a 10def passion and 12 Wilds, obliterating all elves that came my way. Then I slowly rooted myself into their territory by 2 bits, and sent another barrage of Lusts against a size 6 city mwahahaha. I combined this tactic by going Hunting for the extra attack fast, rather than needing a whole more step for ranged attacks (Distress) which I've done in previous games. Now Im just awaiting my new Love to build next to their capital city, and Tracking to finish for Jealousy tears.

Update of thought: Expanding near water and mountains is highly favourable although Im still slightly bugged by the balance between production->absorption and digesting->science again. I do realize that the teching scales quite differently for the tears, and while its alot to ask for, maybe a future project would be to amp up the overall science and move some upgrades&units a tech tier or two up for the sake of score, multiplayer and AI understanding of ones actual position. On the whole I feel so far that its a mighty civ but the lack of apparent progress can sometimes create the ZZZ promotion. Pop-ups that actually does something are always more fun =)

 

[sylvain5477]

Will you change life extension into some other form of function?

Currently I made it that the life extension increase teh chance of tear survival when rooting.

Perhaps add a rooting speeder somewhere in the tech tree? Only one turn reduction somewhere would be pretty nice and adds to the builder player tech lines.
Update of thought: Aha! I got it, reduced rooting time in "harsh" enviroments like ice and marsh etc. That'd be nice to have somewhere ^^

That's easy enough, but would you think only for harsh environment or everywhere ? (I would rather think of the later but see what you think)

Update of curiousity: Whats your lore view of Dagda's Tear? Is it simply munching up everything "living" in order to create a total equilibrium or is it a somewhat evolving biomass crunching more and more? With the first, hearts (cities) should eventually wither away as the would serve no purpose, however if this thing wants to consume more, it would eat to the depths aswell. My hope is for the latter because with that said one can have an improvement (Burrowing Tear) to actually make tiles workable again in later game which in turn revives old hearts as production centers. Maybe not much, but combined with building(s?) (Earth Lung?) that increase the production flatly, it still gives hearts a long-term purpose in the game.

Well, actually it was until 10 mins ago the former. I was planning for the Tear to actually leave the landscape bare behind, the city fading to nothingness in the heart.

But now you actually gave a rather good idea with the "second breath" tech, allowing to absorb the earth itself. I'll see what I can do in that line.

Update of gaming: Im quite pleased with how the Lust Tear assault strategy works out. I bridged 2 continents and the Ljosalfar started attacking me, and I amassed a defense Pride, a 10def passion and 12 Wilds, obliterating all elves that came my way. Then I slowly rooted myself into their territory by 2 bits, and sent another barrage of Lusts against a size 6 city mwahahaha. I combined this tactic by going Hunting for the extra attack fast, rather than needing a whole more step for ranged attacks (Distress) which I've done in previous games. Now Im just awaiting my new Love to build next to their capital city, and Tracking to finish for Jealousy tears.

I haven't yet limit to 80% damage have I?

Update of thought: Expanding near water and mountains is highly favourable although Im still slightly bugged by the balance between production->absorption and digesting->science again.

Can you detail your thoughts about this ?

I do realize that the teching scales quite differently for the tears, and while its alot to ask for, maybe a future project would be to amp up the overall science and move some upgrades&units a tech tier or two up for the sake of score, multiplayer and AI understanding of ones actual position.

I haven't yet set the Power/Asset correctly for buildings and units, so I think it may explain why the score is not adequate (but in my example I rather have a score similar to the IA thanks to very high culture).

On the whole I feel so far that its a mighty civ but the lack of apparent progress can sometimes create the ZZZ promotion. Pop-ups that actually does something are always more fun =)

The "ZZZ" promotion ? You mean you get bored after some time right ?
I think the mid to late game s missing and with it objectives motivating the game.
I'm planning in v0.2 to add absorbtion accelerator in the price of units dying (as someone suggested earlier I think). I will balance more the science also (boost).

 

[Rickie_Rain]

That's easy enough, but would you think only for harsh environment or everywhere ? (I would rather think of the later but see what you think)

How about both? Landing all absorption times at the same after a while...the realistic translation would be that fibre-rich stuff is not a barrier anymore, its simply a matter of how fast the tears actually just munch through everything. Also provides options if placed in 2 parallel tech lines. Either you get one in order to get through marsh(sea) and ice faster, or you get one for generic landscape. Depends on your situation. Options is luv.

But now you actually gave a rather good idea with the "second breath" tech, allowing to absorb the earth itself. I'll see what I can do in that line.

I'm happy you approve. Im trying to look at the bigger picture (all too much at times).

I haven't yet limit to 80% damage have I?

That will certainly make the tech-tier 3 units more required. Athough anything down at 20% is quite mushy it does help avoiding what happened to me just now. I'm obliterating the elves with near-zero casualty risk which....is overpowered ^^. Eventually you might have to consider capping it even lower, but we'll see.

Update of thought: Expanding near water and mountains is highly favourable although Im still slightly bugged by the balance between production->absorption and digesting->science again.

I mean that its bugging to need digesting tears to get research going, all the while the existing mechanics are nice it is like that. Already mentioned multiple times and you're working on it, just brought it in there again for....whatever impulse reason as I wrote it

And yes, the exact definition of the ZZZ promotion. Although eating elves surely added a new level of fun now. About bloody time I got some action ^^. Its just that even though its a war-based civ, sometimes war is a sluggish process so working on the non-war bits remains a priority IMO.

Keep up your awesomeness.

 

[sylvain5477]

Here's a save game, if you need it, of the Hippus working a rooted tile next to their city.

Thanks by the way, I could see the cases which allows the problem (whose solution is found for v0.2).

 

[FireBlaze]

Update?

 

[sylvain5477]

Working on it !