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new civilization: Lithuania

Discussion in 'Civ4 - New Civilizations' started by CivArmy s. 1994, Dec 29, 2005.

  1. Undeadas

    Undeadas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2001
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Kaunas, Lithuania
    To Shqype:
    your tree shows a little knowledge of Baltic languages - baltic has nothing to do with slavian. And here look at these trees:

    http://www.danshort.com/ie/iesatem_c.shtml
    http://www.danshort.com/ie/iecentum_c.shtml

    ofcourse to say which language is older in that tree is imposible, but it gives a normal knowledge how languages evolved.

    And I'm afraid, that in 1892 J. Wackernagel even didn't imagined, that there exist such language like Lithuanian (or that there exists such Baltic branch - as i writtten before - Russia (in 1864–1904) tried strongly to destroy this language - so your scientist was without even proper information).

    P.s. as for specific lithuanian unit it's hard to give any idea, but it's clear, that we didn't have a real knight unit - even in 1410 heavy cavalry used was polish, we got only a light cavalry.
    So for about 200 years most battles against better equiped enemies were fought in forests, where mounted units losed their advantages (and in that case: lithuanian swordsman got better chances than german knight).
     
  2. saraskas

    saraskas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2006
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    Location:
    Dublin
    Hi. Thanks for adding Lithuania into a Civ4.
    Is it possible to change units language? Units are talking Russian. I'm not a nationalist( I speak Russian almost fluently myself).With some tips from a mod maker, me and other lithuanians( I hope) are ready to help to change.
     
  3. Anima Croatorum

    Anima Croatorum Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Vukojebina, Croatia
    Just record voices and replace files. All you need is a mic and some inspiration.

    About Lithuanian language... am I the only one that sees similarities with Greek? Perhaps the two are distant kin, from before 1200BC.

    And that archaic tree is not all that correct. I'd say Romanian is the most distant of all romance languages in relation to Portuguese.
     
  4. CivArmy s. 1994

    CivArmy s. 1994 Chieftain

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    Campinas, Brazil
    I choice Russian, cos it is the closer one offered by the game... but with someone wants create the sounds file, my pleasure to add them :D
     
  5. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
    Messages:
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    Location:
    New York + Shqypni
    Undeads, those language trees are missing key languages... such as Thracian and Illyrian.

    Illyrian is considered to be a Centum language, while modern Albanian has elements from both Centum and Satem languages. The reason why you are not finding Albanian as the oldest surviving Indo European language is because a) relatively few works and research have been done on the Illyrians, and most people (at least in American education) rarely hear or learn of them, thus knowledge is limited, and b) there is still controversy regarding the Illyro-Albanian descent.

    John Wilkes' book "The Illyrians" goes in-depth about the ancient Illyrians, not fully linking them to the Albanians (still debate over it) until the last 3 sentences where he states that the Albanians have the same language, culture, and customs (not to mention location) of the Illyrians.

    Here my friend is another language tree that I found, in more chronological order:
     
  6. anjf

    anjf Chieftain

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    Location:
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    Do you mean that there is a great difference between English and Latin?

    If thats what you mean, than you aren't excatly correct. Much of English is from France and Latin, by Willam the duke of Normandy.

    If you look up latin words you will see a lot of words, mainly verb, or verb-based-words, are very easy to link to english. Of course the grammer does makes a huge difference since English doesn't have special from for subject, object, etc. for just normal words like servus, slave or pater, father.
    But the words are more the simuler then you would think.
     
  7. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    English is a Germanic language, it is derived from Germanic languages... but it is heavily influenced by Latin. The words and the structure of the language are two different things.
     
  8. Anima Croatorum

    Anima Croatorum Chieftain

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    Grammatically, English and Latin are worlds apart. English would not know Ablative clause if it hit them in the head.
     
  9. Undeadas

    Undeadas Chieftain

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    Location:
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    Well at this point Lithuanian situation isn't any better:
    a.) only few research was made at this point (and the more serious ones only from 1990 !)
    b.) even worse, during such period of 1940-1990 in USSR it was forbbinden in the universities to talk about Lithuania without talking about our neighbors in Belorusia (slavs). And if any foreign scientist wanted to make any research - he would find political related history.
    Obout this thing (political related history): in USSR it was tried to rewrite history, for example, for some time the first inventor of telegrpah, steam engine were mentioned as russians (in books).
    With Baltic states (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia) it was even worse - russians needed the explanation of anexation(incorporation into Soviet Union) - so they were saying, that balts were slavs, and so on. And I should only to remind, that all writen books, research papers, and other stuf (in USSR) were checked if they fit into political USSR idealogy (USSR, had a very big beurocratic totalitaristic engine).
    c.) So till 1990 you wouldn't find a teaching book with the idea of Lithuanian language age. And only later with foreign (western) research such conclusions are made. So if we look at a research - we have to check how old is it (and it's data used from other books).

    And only from this picture we can certainly say: the one who made it was concerned about other languages than Baltic Lithuanian branch.
     
  10. deadcat

    deadcat Chieftain

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    "The chancery languages of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was Ruthenian (reffered to as Old Belarusian by Belarusians and as Chancery Slavic by Lithuanians) and Latin. First was used for correspondence to eastern countries and later also the local needs, such as writting laws (Lithuanian statutes). Latin and german was used for correspondence to western countries.

    The Ruthenian language was chosen for inner laws and such because of more developed Eastern Slavic culture and writting by the time; as Lithuanian nation was pagan for long, culturally, from a western standpoint, it was behind the orthodox Slavs. It is stated that King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania Alexander I could understand and speak lithuanian, after him there are no valid evidences. Also, at the time nationalism was not present, and the nobles who migrated from one place to another would adapt to a new locality and take local religion and culture. Therefore those Lithuanian nobles who moved to Slavic areas took up their culture."

    "Ethnically at the start of the country Lithuanians made 70% of population. With the acquisition of new slavic populated territories, this part decreased to 50% and with the acquisition of even more lands to 30%. An other major nation were Tatars (by Dykra). By the time of late Grand Duchy, Slavs made overal majority. Because of this, as well as the usage of Slavic language to write laws, in some historical sources the late GDL is often called a Slavic country among Poland, Russia etc."

    WIKIPEDIA
     
  11. deadcat

    deadcat Chieftain

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    "In 1240, after the Tatar overthrow of Kiev, the dominant principality of Kievan Rus', Belorussia and part of Ukraine came under the control of Lithuania. The resulting state was called the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus', and Samogitia. Because territories inhabited by East Slavs made up about 90 percent of the Grand Duchy, they exerted a great cultural influence on the new state. Official business was conducted in a Slavic language (a predecessor of both Belorussian and Ukrainian) based on Old Church Slavonic, and the law code was based on that of Kievan Rus'."

    "The medieval Lithuanian rulers did not develop a written form of the Lithuanian language. The literary Lithuanian language, based on a southwestern Lithuanian dialect, came into use during the last quarter of the nineteenth century, replacing the use of the Samogitian, or western Lithuanian, dialect. At the beginning of the twentieth century, the use of Lithuanian was confined mainly to the peasantry, but the language was revived subsequently. In 1988 it was declared the official language of Lithuania, as it had been during 1918-40 and the early years of Soviet rule."

    Source: U.S. Library of Congress
    http://countrystudies.us
     
  12. deadcat

    deadcat Chieftain

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    "Contemporary Belarusian historians assert that they were not conquered by the Lithuanians, but rather the latter were initially mercenaries at the service of Slavonic princes. Whichever is true, the entry of the Slavs in the new state – the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (GDL) was of primary importance for the cultural development of Lithuanians. Monetary system and common law, official language and diplomatic rite were borrowed by them from their new compatriots. Almost all the Lithuanian Grand Dukes of 13th-15th centuries were brought up in the spirit of Slavonic culture, married Slavonic princesses and were, at least during certain periods of their lives, Orthodox. For centuries, the main centre of Belarusian, as well as Lithuanian, culture was Vilnius (Vilnia) until it was handed over by Stalin to the Lithuanian Republic in 1939."
    "Therefore the Grand Duchy (Chaucer's Lettow and Ruce) is regarded as a dual state, like Belgium or Canada and is called, ex post facto, Lithuania-Belarus. Radical nationalists, however, deny today's Lithuanians any right to the historical heritage of the GDL and contend that, if not Belarusian by its name, this state was essentially Belarusian. Oddly enough, both constituent people, known now as Lithuanians and Belarusians, called themselves "Lithuanians" in their tongues – lietuviai and litviny, respectively. The native language of the latter, however, was called Russian and the feeling of Russian identity remained quite strong, especially in the lowest classes. "
    "For most of their history, Belarusian lands had no other collective name other than Litva (Lithuania)"

    Ales Biely, "Belarus: real or fictitious nation?"
     
  13. Undeadas

    Undeadas Chieftain

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    Location:
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    True. Lithuanians didn't have their own writings, so they used others insted (Slavic and Latin). And it should be mentioned, that at that time the people who could write and read were less than 1% of the country. So that written language was used very little, and only for chancellery purposes (mostly: trties with other countries and rulers, diplomatical mail, and very few decrees for the land inside).
    Latter Polish writings will be also be used. But from that time of writings you will be unable to find any fiction, culturial writings.

    True and false.
    The reason was vey simple - the only people able to write in Lithuanian controlled territory were slavs and we by our selves didn't have any writing at that time. So slavs were used.
    About stronger culture - how can you calculate it? If for any cristian (ortodox or not) anyone who worship sun, holy forests looked like barbarians (and yes, if writing and churches means bigger culter - when it was bigger in other lands).

    Now we are talking about the united kingdom period (and it's from 1569! remmeber Lithuania as a stable state was united in about 1251. For 300 years all Lithuanian Dukes spoke in Lithuania language).
    And yes - in united Lithuanian/Poland kingdom, a lot of of our noble mans started to use polish language - they looked at it like to a progress (and the culturial influence was really big at that time from Poland). But ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE of the country (those were > 90%) were peasants and they used Lithuanian language only (and no any writing at any language). For two hundred years lithuanian language will we used and saved by peasants :)

    Actually in the times, of Lithuanian expansion, there wasn't such thing like colonisation of other lands, sometimes even the same disctrict governors there left in power if they agreed to accept their new dukes.
    The number of noble peoples moved to rule other lands were at small numbers (to one bigger town/center of some district only 20 people... it isn't a big movement and no impact of culturial loss to the fatherland :) ).

    That guy who wrote this was smoking herbs, or just was guesing on his own imagination. By the way numbers could be correct if you looked from the other side: the land which was governed by lithuanian Dukes was populated by slavs mainly, so while the territory grew, the percentage of Lithuanians in the land was going down. But in Lithuania disctrict (which was bigger than it is now) - the majority of population was (and still is) lithuanian.
    If the man who wrote this sentence wopuld be right - in these days, in any village you could find a lot of speaking russian language people, but it isn't so - you could find only lithuanians (even in second largest city of now adays lithuania it's strange to hear if somwone on the streets speaks russian).
    By the way those numbers (50%, 30%) could be right only on one thing: the percentage of noblemans who spoke Lithuanian (but noblemans were only about 5% of the country).

    You can find a lot of even funny facts in Vicipedia :) Like the onle I like the most "first time lithuanian was mentioned in writing was in a XV century" (when a real fact is 1009 year).

    Some old sources really mentioned about lithuania, as a ruler of slavs (at that time the most slaves ruled in single country were in Lithuania - because all other slavs countries were divided).
    But the ideo of calling Lithuanians as slavs ended when Russians had to choose under whom to unite slavic country (there were onlyu two candidates: GDL and Moscow) - they chose a slavic one :) Maybe this says anything?

    The FIRST Lithuanian BOOK writen in lithuanian language was Martynas Mazvydas catechism written in 1547. In the end of XIX century there were even newspapers writen in Lithuanian. And don't forget, at that time 1864-1904 - any lithuanian writing was forbbiden - and if something is forbbiden - so it exists, yes?
    And ofcourse, here is the link to vicipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martynas_Mazvydas

    About the part of peasantry I wrote, and the only mistake of your statement is 100-200 hudred years - lithuanian language came back to nobles level after 1830 revolt (reason very simple - mainly nobles (some of them called themselves polish people) were punished by Czar and sent to exile).

    And after 1830 lithuanian language come back at all levels (and let me point, 1830 is XIX century, not XX).

    Yes of course not conquered, but if you wanted them to do anything you just got to move with a big army into their country :) :) :) And to ask it's ruler - "who is the boss?"

    About that princesses... One of our Dukes (Gediminas) wasn't very good at sword - but was good at diplomacy - and he got really a lot of daughters and sons. So if he wanted to make a stronger peace treaty, he often used marriage as political tool. Other grand duke Algirdas (which made a very big expansion to the slavs lands) - used both tactics - conquer and in the surrender treaty he used political marriages.
    So it was nothing about "slavic spirit" it was about political/expansion tool.

    There are some simple things:
    * Belarusia never had an independent state before 1921. At that time (even now) for them it is difficult to find their true nationality. Because if they look back - they will see Lithuania. So they tried (at one time very strongly) to put all history into such a way, that they (Belarusians) were GDL. And didn't care that:
    A. the 3rd letter is Lithuania (not russia)
    B. that the capital (Vilnius) is in lithuanian speaking lands
    C. that till the united Polish-Lithuanian country (1569), all lithuanian rulers spoke Lithuanian and none of them even wrote in russian language, because they all were illiteral.
    D. in Lithuanian pagan times - slavics (Belarusian) there cristians-ortodox.
    E. after christianize of Lithuania 1387 lithuanians are pure catholic (not ortodox like all slavs).
    F. Russian and Lithuanian language have nothing in comon (for us it's another
    foreign language).

    So all that talking about culture influence are more words than facts and taken from a big despair (polish people can talk about their influence, and that would be truth, but only on very limited "nobel mans level" ).

    * And as i have writen before:
    "About this thing (political related history): in USSR it was tried to rewrite history <...>.
    With Baltic states (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia) it was even worse - russians needed the explanation of anexation(incorporation into Soviet Union) - so they were saying, that balts were slavs, and so on. And I should only to remind, that all writen books, research papers, and other stuf (in USSR) were checked if they fit into political USSR idealogy (USSR, had a very big beurocratic totalitaristic engine)."
     
  14. JerichoMyst

    JerichoMyst Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    28
    Location:
    Lietuva
    Recomended cities:
    By when was granted municipal rights:
    * Klaip&#279;da since 1257
    * Kaunas since 1317
    * Trakai since XIV c.
    * Vilnius since 1387 (current Capitol)
    * Raseiniai since XV c.
    * Ukmerg&#279; since 1486
    * Anyk&#353;&#269;iai since 1516
    * Bir&#353;tonas since XVI c.
    * Skuodas since 1572
    * Alytus since 1581
    * Bir&#382;ai since 1589
    * &#352;iauliai since 1589
    * K&#279;dainiai since 1590
    * Lazdijai since 1597
    * Kretinga since 1609
    * Prienai since 1609
    * Jurbarkas since 1611
    * Joni&#353;kis since 1616
    * Simnas since 1626
    * Kudirkos Naumiestis since 1643
    * &#352;eduva since 1654
    * Vilkavi&#353;kis since 1660
    * Viek&#353;niai since 1725
    * Salantai since 1746
    * &#352;akiai since 1776
    * Kalvarija since 1791
    * Kupi&#353;kis since 1791
    * Palanga since 1791
    * Panev&#279;&#382;ys since 1791
    * Tel&#353;iai since 1791
    * Akmen&#279; since 1792
    * Ariogala since 1792
    * Daugai since 1792
    * Garg&#382;dai since 1792
    * Marijampol&#279; since 1792
    * Plung&#279; since 1792
    * Rietavas since 1792
    * Vilkija since 1792
    * &#381;ie&#382;mariai since 1792
    * &#352;ven&#269;ionys since 1800
    * Panemun&#279; since 1837
    * Zarasai since 1843
    * Jonava since 1864
    * Druskininkai since 1893
    * Kybartai since 1919
    * Roki&#353;kis since 1920
    * &#352;ven&#269;ion&#279;liai since 1920
    * Pag&#279;giai since 1923
    * Radvili&#353;kis since 1923
    * Ma&#382;eikiai since 1924
    * Taurag&#279; since 1924
    * Utena since 1924
    * &#381;agar&#279; since 1924
    * Virbalis since 1932
    * &#352;ilut&#279; since 1941
    * Kai&#353;iadorys since 1946
    * Kur&#353;&#279;nai since 1946
    * Lentvaris since 1946
    * Pabrad&#279; since 1946
    * Pasvalys since 1946
    * Var&#279;na since 1946
    * Kelm&#279; since 1947
    * Ei&#353;i&#353;k&#279;s since 1950
    * Ignalina since 1950
    * Kazl&#371; R&#363;da since 1950
    * Linkuva since 1950
    * Pakruojis since 1950
    * Seda since 1950
    * Skaudvil&#279; since 1950
    * &#352;ilal&#279; since 1950
    * &#352;irvintos since 1950
    * Varniai since 1950
    * Vievis since 1950
    * Naujoji Akmen&#279; since 1952
    * Nemen&#269;in&#279; since 1955
    * Mol&#279;tai since 1956
    * Obeliai since 1956
    * Pand&#279;lys since 1956
    * &#352;al&#269;ininkai since 1956
    * Tytuv&#279;nai since 1956
    * Ramygala since 1957
    * Garliava since 1958
    * Gelgaudi&#353;kis since 1958
    * Grigi&#353;k&#279;s since 1958
    * R&#363;di&#353;k&#279;s since 1958
    * Neringa since 1961
    * Elektr&#279;nai since 1962
    * E&#382;er&#279;lis since 1956
    * Visaginas since 1977
    * Venta since 1978
    * Baltoji Vok&#279;
    * D&#363;k&#353;tas
    * Dusetos
    * Jieznas
    * Joni&#353;k&#279;lis
    * Kavarskas
    * Priekul&#279;
    * Smalininkai
    * Suba&#269;ius
    * Tro&#353;k&#363;nai
    * U&#382;ventis
    * Vabalninkas
    * Veisiejai
    :king:
     
  15. JerichoMyst

    JerichoMyst Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Location:
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    ...or by current population:
    1.Vilnius - 541 278 (current Capitol)
    2.Kaunas - 364 059
    3.Klaip&#279;da - 188 767
    4.Šiauliai - 130 020
    5.Panev&#279;žys - 116 247
    6.Alytus - 69 859
    7.Marijampol&#279; - 47 693
    8.Mažeikiai - 41 389
    9.Jonava - 34 782
    10.Utena - 33 086
    11.K&#279;dainiai - 31 613
    12.Telšiai - 30 539
    13.Taurag&#279; - 28 504
    14.Visaginas - 28 438
    15.Ukmerg&#279; - 28 006
    16.Plung&#279; - 23 246
    17.Kretinga - 21 425
    18.Šilut&#279; - 21 258
    19.Radviliškis - 19 883
    20.Palanga - 17 611
    21.Druskininkai - 16 890
    22.Rokiškis - 16 118
    23.Gargždai - 15 510
    24.Biržai - 14 999
    25.Kurš&#279;nai - 13 854
    26.Elektr&#279;nai - 13 819
    27.Jurbarkas - 13 625
    28.Garliava - 13 423
    29.Vilkaviškis - 13 102
    30.Raseiniai - 12 305
    31.Lentvaris - 11 832
    32.Anykš&#269;iai - 11 757
    33.Naujoji Akmen&#279; - 11 748
    34.Grigišk&#279;s - 11 566
    35.Prienai - 11 131
    36.Joniškis - 11 129
    37.Kelm&#279; - 10 597
    38.Var&#279;na - 10 555
    39.Kaišiadorys - 9 734
    40.Pasvalys - 8 562
    41.Kupiškis - 8 243
    42.Zarasai - 8 001
    43.Skuodas - 7 598
    44.Kazl&#371; R&#363;da - 7 330
    45.Širvintos - 7 176
    46.Mol&#279;tai - 7 059
    47.Šal&#269;ininkai - 6 644
    48.Šakiai - 6 605
    49.Šven&#269;ion&#279;liai - 6 585
    50.Pabrad&#279; - 6 398
    51.Kybartai - 6 395
    52.Ignalina - 6 307
    53.Šilal&#279; - 6 157
    54.Pakruojis - 5 998
    55.Nemen&#269;in&#279; - 5 885
    56.Šven&#269;ionys - 5 658
    57.Trakai - 5 504
    58.Vievis - 5 246
    59.Kalvarija - 5 066
    60.Lazdijai - 5 027
    61.Rietavas - 3 937
    62.Žiežmariai - 3 852
    63.Eišišk&#279;s - 3 688
    64.Ariogala - 3 627
    65.Šeduva - 3 270
    66.Venta - 3 221
    67.Birštonas - 3 138
    68.Akmen&#279; - 2 973
    69.Neringa - 2 834
    70.Tytuv&#279;nai - 2 775
    71.R&#363;dišk&#279;s - 2 527
    72.Vilkija - 2 326
    73.Pag&#279;giai - 2 321
    74.Viekšniai - 2 248
    75.Žagar&#279; - 2 208
    76.Skaudvil&#279; - 2 081
    77.Ežer&#279;lis - 2 066
    78.Gelgaudiškis - 1 985
    79.Kudirkos Naumiestis - 1 951
    80.Simnas - 1 940
    81.Salantai - 1 887
    82.Linkuva - 1 770
    83.Priekul&#279; - 1 690
    84.Ramygala - 1 678
    85.Veisiejai - 1 673
    86.Daugai - 1 453
    87.Jonišk&#279;lis - 1 432
    88.Jieznas - 1 423
    89.Obeliai - 1 335
    90.Virbalis - 1 314
    91.Varniai - 1 310
    92.Seda - 1 260
    93.Vabalninkas - 1 225
    94.Suba&#269;ius - 1 122
    95.Baltoji Vok&#279; - 1 075
    96.D&#363;kštas - 992
    97.Pand&#279;lys - 985
    98.Dusetos - 866
    99.Užventis - 844
    100.Kavarskas - 753
    101.Smalininkai - 644
    102.Trošk&#363;nai - 534
    103.Panemun&#279; - 324
    :king:
     
  16. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

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    Excellent job, as always. If I may suggest a small change to the leader's portrait, he should probably wear chainmail, instead of platemail, as the latter has not been yet developed in the time he lived. But great job nonetheless. :goodjob:
     
  17. JerichoMyst

    JerichoMyst Chieftain

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    Location:
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    ...as for special unit I would suggest using guerrilla/partisan/bushwhacker. dont know which word is the most right one. they were active since ~1944 and till ~1955. they were fighting for freedom against Soviets and Soviet ocupation.

    for medieval period... well our spearmen and swordsmen were main fighting unit. not heavily armoured they gained major advantage in woods and swamps...
    :king:
     
  18. CivArmy s. 1994

    CivArmy s. 1994 Chieftain

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    Location:
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    thanks for the new suggestions, city list... I can use them in a future version ;)

    good game! :D
     
  19. TheSnafued1

    TheSnafued1 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Taurage, Lithuania
    Aciu Aciu Aciu!

    Lithuania really didnt have knights so i think the Partisans would be a better choice for a UU.

    Also for more leaders Vytautas and {Pirmas vardas ?} Smtona ( president of Lithuania Before ww2) with the favorite civ of Nationhood.
     
  20. joasoze

    joasoze Chieftain

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    I have read very fast through this thread and I am a bit surprised. I have read several places on the net that Lithuanian is closely related to Sanskrit. I have read claims like a lithuanian farmer today would understand old scholars in India speaking sandskrit thousands of years ago.

    I am Norwegian and no expert on this, but I am interested as my wife is Lithuanian.
     

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