Discussion in 'Civ4 - New Civilizations' started by CivArmy s. 1994, Dec 29, 2005.
Just dont use Paksas as a leader
I read somewhere that the country had a powerful knight army in Medieval Times and other Lithuanians told me that too, well, I am not expert in Lithuanian history, but I think it's cool that Lithuanian knight.
BTW, why this symbol shows a knight? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania
I'll tell you one thing about Lithuanians .... they sure know how to dominate SK!
These words come to my mind: "Never mess with Mother Nature, mother-in-laws or *** Ukrainians." - Italian Job Movie
uh, u r talking about Lithuanians, not Ukranians, doh!!! :suicide:
I dont think much inspiration is needed, i have a feeling that all the unit voices are exactly the same 20 or so sentences, only in different languages.
All those language trees with sanskrit on them kind of confuse me. Isnt sanskrit supposed to be a artificial language (like esperanto) that some wizards in india made up loooong time ago?
Anyway nice to see there is an lithuanian civ out there... at least one representative of baltic countries.
About the Knight in The Coat of Arms. In short terms:
In wider terms: VYTIS
Lol yup no Paksas=commie douche
@ civ army
Im no expert on Lithuanian history but from my knowledge there was no native Lithuanian Knight order. The Livonian order from Riga Latvia had influence on the country being one of the factors that lead Lithuania coverting to christianity and of course the Teutonic knights. From what i heard in stories is that most of the country was terrified of the knights because of their brutuality
About the medival knight army... It might be confused with the horseman of Smogitia or Zemaita. I know that they were really tough and their horses were prized throught Europe. But they weren't a Knightly order. Ill call my aunt to figure this out for shure.
I do know modern day Lithuanian orginizations do use the knight as a symbol. Like the "Knights of Lithuania" which is a Political/Religious orginization and the Lithuanian scouts.
this organization unites (or at least its their purpose should be) Lithuanians living in USA. political? not realy, its religion and its catholic, and knights... come on if lithuania had knights, they would have been pagan, cause the Catholics were those we were fighting against...
What others said - Lithuanians were fighting with Teutonic Knights and Livonian Knights, who came to Christianise them - they eventually adopted Christianity following the union with Poland, but the catholic knight orders have always been enemies of Lithuania.
About 100 "of the basic use" words in both languages are the same, but still not enoutgh to be able to make a normal conversation. So the answer should be "no".
Thanx, then I know more than the Indians I know a couple of hundred words, but it is a very difficult language to learn. My wife is lithuanian and and my baby is gonna learn lithuanian too.
A really great job CivArmy s. 1994!! And again,with voice acting,it would be great if units spoke in lithuanian. I think there needs to be done some scripting or something,if I don't want to delete russian unit's lanugage in order to replace it, but to add lithuanian?I'm not familiar with programing,but I would really want to help with the audio,since I have the equipement needed for this job and I am familiar with the necessary programs, so if any help needed-say the word.
I would like to say a few words from our, polish, side of viev.
First of all I would like to say that our last hundred years of history was some much unfortunate. You blame us for takeing Wilno (Vilnus) in after WW1, yes, it was Your capital and yes, we know that not rebles but ordinary polish army took the city but please remember that this was at that time mostly polish city, most of citizens spoke polish and were saying about theirselves as polish.
It was not only Your city, it was the city of our both nations. Our Union was very long and strong, our nations were "mixed" at that time.
Do You rememeber times of our Polsih-Lithuenian Union, when we together crushed Teutonic army (most of wester Europe sent forces to crush us, Pope supported them too) on the feelds of Grunwald? It was on of the greates battles of that time but no one in the west konwos about it (it was because we took no prisoners, western europe was used to ransoms)
Do You remember times when we together were one of the strongest countries in the world (in the size of territory and army, wealth). It was the Golden age for both our countries...
Remember that taht Union was not broke by any of our countries but because of enemy plots. We remeber this time as a good time, and we learn in schools that we were friends.
Some historicians say that if this Union (plus Bearus and Unkraine) was named as a some kind of a Commonwealth of Middlesees (Black and Baltic; something like a Commonwealt of Englad, Scotland, Wales...), it could be one of the strongest countries in the world, and history would go another way (mayby without Hitler, Stalin, communis)....
We learn much about our common history but I think that Lithuanians have some kind of hate to us. When i was in Your Nationa Museum in Vilnus there were very few information about our common, and looong history, there was information in three languages - Yours, russian and english - but no in polish? Why? There were oryginal books in polish, uniforms of soldiers with polish details, nobles with polish names - it is our common history...
I think that You are a little bit afraid to agree with it but You should be.
Were can You find better long term friends than us? And were could Poland find better friend? Russia? Germany? Sweden?
Yeah,you are right,we kicked ass in thouse times,but you shouldn't forget,that the leaders of our nations changed,and sometimes orders were givien,which were not the best ones from the common people point of view...and that changed a lot,a decision of single leader can bring anticipation and anger between people..so it was the way it happened...I guess..
Don't you think it would be fair to mention that grounding on modern political map there were only 7 Lithuanian regiments (from Ukmerge under the command of Vezhgailo, two from Vilna (modern Vilnius) under the command of Voitseh Montvind and Peter Gashtold, Kovno (modern Kaunas), Medininkai, two from Troki (modern Trakai) under the command of Yavnise and Ginvill) out of 44 regiments (harugvau) in the army of GDL, which fought together with the Poles against the Teutons. The rest of the army of GDL consisted of :
25 Byelarusian regiments (harugvi) (from Byarestse, Byhau, Vitsebsk, Vaukavysk, Garodnya, Dragichyn, Drutsk, Kobryn, Kreva, Kremyanets, Krychau, Lida, Lukoml, Mensk, Zaslaue, Mahileu, Mstsislau, Nyasvizh, Navagradak, Orsha. Ashmyany, Polatsk, Slonim, Slutsak)
6 Ukrainian regiments (harugvi) (from Volodimir-Valynski, Kiiv, Litsk, Novgorod Severskii, Ratno and Chartoriisk)
3 Russian regiments (harugvi) (from Novgorod Velikii, Smalensk, Starodub)
Plus there were from 2000 to 5000 the Tartars under the command of Gelal ad Din.
I do not know what kind of historical data is given in Poland, could you give me such info.
As far as I know there were 52 Polish regiments, which participated in Grunwald battle.
I guess you understand that many Byelarusians as well as I would feel a bit offended that you metioned just the Lithuanian.
If we speak about GDL, the common name for all nations (including Byelarusians, Lithuanians, Ukranians and Russians) was LITVINS
And I would be grateful to you if you could call population of GDL as the Litvins.
Thank you (Dzen’kue!)
PS I know it is just a dream but it would be great to restore our Commonwealth (I mean Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and the Ukraine)
Yes, You are right. In polish historicians point of viev, too much strenght and wealth in the hands of the most powerful poeple in our countries (in polish we name them "magnateria" - the most powerfull nobles) caused riots, instability and because of that the weakness of the King and our both parlaments (please also remember that our democratic - but in that time also surrounded by Prusia, Russia and Austria - Union, introduced the first in the world constitution on the 3-third of May). The weakness of the King and parlaments (liberum veto) caused the weakness of our Union...
I was told that in that battle fought 20.000 polish troops and 10.000 lithuanian-russian soldiers and less than 1000 tatars and some soldiers from czech and moravia. We do not know anything about Byelarusian regiments, mayby because of that that this treritory was under the rule of Lithuania in that time (but mayby You are right and we should count some of this troops as troops from belarus).
We had advantage over Teutonic-West European army in nuber but we had less heavy forces (armor). Our victory was because of good tactic.
About 8000 teutonic soldiers died (many many nobles), 14000 was captured....it was a crushing victory (but we unfortunetly couldnt capture Malborg - Marienburg)! The power of Teutonic Order was broken and they stoped invading our, Lithuania and Polish, teritory.
Poland feels very much linked to Lithuanian, Belarus and Ukraine. Please remeber polish support now for democratic reforms in Ukraine (orange revolution, Putin supported Janukowicz) and now in Belarus against Lukasenko. Western countries do not remember of easter europe, they would prefer to give all this teritory to Russia...We have very complicated diplomatic relations with Russia because of this metter, Poland was the first country in the world to accept the free Ukraine (free from USSR in 90'), now we support democracy in Belarus (Lukasenko is supported by Putin).
In Poland there is untrust to Russia and Germany and a very warm feelings to Ukraine, Lithuania and Belarus. You can count on our help if Yoi need it.
Thanks for reading
(and Sorry for chaos in my writing...)
I've just enumerated Byelarusian regiments:
from Byarestse, Byhau, Vitsebsk, Vaukavysk, Garodnya, Dragichyn, Drutsk, Kobryn, Kreva, Kremyanets, Krychau, Lida, Lukoml, Mensk, Zaslaue, Mahileu, Mstsislau, Nyasvizh, Navagradak, Orsha. Ashmyany, Polatsk, Slonim, Slutsak)
All of them were formed in Byelarusian cities and towns.
I have already read similar thread dediated to Grand Duchy of Lituania from belorussian point of view.
What we quarell are details, and all sides wants to claim everything, declining the others. I know this well, because we Polish often tend to perceive Commonwealth of the Three Nations as solely polish; what is undoubtedly false.
Lithuania temporarily conquered belarussian lands, because Rus was severely crippled by Tartars. Despite this, Rus was economically and culturally better developed than Lithuania itself (not much better, but it was), so Lithuanians couldnt chew its prey - thats why they come to agreement with Polish. Rus noblemen were achieving more and more power in Grand Duchy, and finally become the backbone of the country. It was a conciouss choice of lithuanian dukes, really wise and deep in consequences. Domestic policy in Polish-Lithuanian (or Lithuanian-Polish) Union was transforming from double-sided pact to triple-sided, what even succeeded in change of the Kigdom name (Republic or Commonwealth of the THREE Nations...). What had gone wrong? Rus and lithuanian nobles were strongly polonized, what caused them to separate from their peasantry, which thought of them as of polish oppressors. Knowledge of this fact come to the noblemen too late, what resulted in wars with Khmielnitsky's Cossaks, Ukraine defection to Russia, and in the end to the lost of independence. I know it is simplification, but in general it is the sad truth.
Shouldnt we join our efforts, instead of acting separately, so we can popularize the knowledge of Eastern Europe's history to the western audience? Now we are constanly marginalized - there is even no Civ edition with any of our nations - which is completely unfair. On our - polish, lithuanian and rus - lands lived over one quarter of the whole Europe's population! How does this affect the true view of European history, please reffer to other popular games like Medieval:Totalwar or Europe Universalis series.
I suggest we create a common mod, describing a history of all three nations. Mod should reflect fact, that through cooperation we can go much further, through positive attitude modifiers/permanent alliance feature.
Our history, blood and genes are probably more mixed than we would admit now. Let's not be selfish enough to weaken ourselves.
Why claiming everything? Or declining everything? Nobody declines normal facts, just in some cases our belarusian friend simply ignore what he doesn't like, or what is more stuning - some pure baltic districs claims as slavic ones (example of Vilnius ) (thats like I would be saying that elephants can fly.... - is there a way to argue?)
Any lithuanian nationalist could take a map and claim Smolensk as lithuanian land (ruled for 300 years by GDL). But nobody does so
"temporarily" - a strange word... those land were conquered till other countries took them (exception - Ukraine).
Yes it was, but not as a lot of people used to think, just several small facts:
* russian writings were used in chancellery (lithuanians simply didn't have any of their own),but most of lithuanian noblemans were totaly illiteral (and not talking about peasants).
* so while russian writigns spread into Lithuania, lithuanian language spread to the east (such facts like even in XIX century there were lithuanian churches deep into slavic lands).
No. The fact one is - we couldn't capture Moscow - which was constantly growing and getting military power. From the duchy of Moscow power Lithuania was forced to go into alliance (not because of the lands which were allready under GDL controll). (and it's not a big secret, that russians tried to make a one united slavic lands country - and GDL controlled a lot of slavic lands...)
Actually such point of view is mostly refered by the fact that in XV century Lithuanian territories were only 1/10 of all GDL (in XVI century - it was 1/6 (GDL was getting smaller) ).
But such things should be also mentioned:
* More than 50% of GDL noblemans lived in lithuanian territories
* The biggest GDL noblemans were lithuanian dynasties (Kesgailos, Gostautai, Radvilos, Astikai, etc.) - the numbers a very clearly shown by 1528 GDL army inventorisation (when each of the noblemans came with his army and all the numbers were writen (main unit: raider with the spear) ).
* Slavic noblemans were mostly orthodoxians, lithuanians - cristians. By the Horodle acts made in 1413 years the possibilities for orthodoxians to do influence to country's ruling was limited.
* And yes there are some exceptions, then some orthodoxians got some power, the best known - Konstantinas Ostrogiskis in 1514 he won a battle near Orsha and exclusivly he got the rights of seond man in Vilnius.
So the talks about slavics power in GDL don't have a strong backup - if anyone knows real facts with datelines (not kinda of fairy-tales) - tell me I'll check
Actually when we start talking about Commonwealth, we stop talking about GDL. In Commonwealth Ukraine was granted to Poland, and in GDL slavic noblemans slowly gained more power than they had before - so in commonwealth belorusians ( Gudai ) became third power, which often called themselves Lithuanians (but did that without loosing their ethnical principles).
And it would be unfair to put only one of them and to call it Commonwealth. Or to do even worse (like was done in Europe Universalis) - to take commonwealth and to call it Poland
The big difficulty - is about what country we should be talking? If we want to talk/bring one single civilization - it should be called Comonwealth, but it's history starts only in 1569 and ends in 1795 (only 226 years), when both Polihs and Lithuanians got a deeper history...
mmm.... you are talking about Commonwealth, but Civ4 principles can't reflect GDL and Polish and Commonwealth history... that's just imposible.
About htat mixing part you went too far
Todays lithuania was build peasantry - which really wasn't mixed with polish noblemans
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