New Expansion Speculation Thread

[acluewithout]

I trust Firaxis' ability to improve upon ideas that weren't up to snuff in past iterations of the franchise. For example, juxtapose Culture Victories in Civ5 vanilla vs BNW. If they can make those kinds of strides with corporations then I say bring 'em on.

Hmm. No, I don’t trust them on corporations and things like that at all. I mean, these are the same guys who went “stock exchange - yeah, that should give a flat +8 gold”.

Civ does lots of things well. But the finance / commerce bit can be a bit weak. I’d rather they just focus on other stuff.

 

[darkace77450]

and don't tie it to TNG this time so we can have the Dominion and all the great assets introduced in DS9

No Star Trek game 4x game would be complete without the Ferengi, Cardassians, and Dominion and you're just not going to do those justice without drawing from DS9.

 

[The Kingmaker]

No Star Trek game 4x game would be complete without the Ferengi, Cardassians, and Dominion and you're just not going to do those justice without drawing from DS9.

BOTF did a great job with the Ferengi and Cardassians.

 

[Giskler]

Looks legit, can't wait!

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

On top of this, there's the real possibility that the person programming the AI doesn't understand the game well enough to know the difference between a good play and a bad one.

The thing is, though, nobody knows the difference between a good play and a bad one when the game is still under development. All the AI person can do - all anybody could do at that stage - is ask the development team how they think the AI should act under various circumstances, and then implement a decision tree as best they can.

You can't possibly have well developed AI decisions until:
(a) the rules are finished; and,
(b) the game has been released into the wild long enough for players to figure out the best tactics.

I look at how the AI tries to convert another civ - wave of Apostles, then a wave of Missionaries - and I guess that was the expectation of the development team that a wave of Apostles would clear out the enemy, and then Missionaries would finish off the conversion. What actually happens is the Apostles eliminate themselves using their last charge to convert cities, and the Missionaries get killed in religious combat, wiping out more religious pressure than they spread. In this situation, even some playtesting may have identified this issue, but there may be little time for playtesting of the final rules depending on when the rules are finalized (and in Civ it appears they continue to get tweaked right up to release, which likely also explains many of the variances between actual game play and UI information).

What I think we should be able to expect is an AI that can make use of all of the game systems on release, and then over time continuous improvement of the AI decision making as feedback comes in from the field.

Mostly that's what we got with Vanilla, with some notable absences such as airplanes. Then that model seemed to go out the window with R&F, which released with more systems that the AI can't use (has anyone ever seen the AI use the National Society?) and for which there's been no apparent attempt to teach the AI to play better.

It would be great if Firaxis engaged some of the better players to work with them on the AI before development finishes. Absent that the best we can hope for is as much of the source code as possible, so the community can continue to improve the AI itself.

 

[nzcamel]

Hmm. No, I don’t trust them on corporations and things like that at all. I mean, these are the same guys who went “stock exchange - yeah, that should give a flat +8 gold”.

Civ does lots of things well. But the finance / commerce bit can be a bit weak. I’d rather they just focus on other stuff.

I think it's inline with other buildings giving you a flat boost which doesn't exactly reflect reality. Corporations were a whole new concept though, not just another building available to all Civs.

 

[DefiantMars]

We discussed it briefly in the other thread, but I reiterate in this one.

If this leak holds actual weight, Vesuvius would be a fitting codename for an expansion that added Natural Disasters to the game.

To limit the number of entirely new systems that might be added to the game, I would consider integrating Disasters into the Emergency system. As it stands, the Emergency system is primarily focused on military aspects of the game. I think opening this up to natural disasters, economic crises, and diplomatic disputes could add more variety. A Civ going bankrupt, (abstracted) stock market crashes, territorial disputes that can involve casus belli and loyalty. I think there are a number of interesting cases to be found here.

In tying disasters to the Emergency system, it could warn a player of impending doom in order to take the edge off the random factor even ask other players to lend their aid in exchange for bonuses. Reddit user Zigzagzigal suggested rewarding players who commit resources to helping out another player with a disaster with more voting power in the World Congress (if that mechanic returns).

It may not be historically accurate, but I would think about using Religious infrastructure as a means to increase warning accuracy and/or mitigate certain penalties from them. This could also be extended to Scientific infrastructure later on to represent the development of measurement tools and detection.

Of course too many protective measures risk making disasters a bit pointless, so one would have to be careful with going overboard. Finding the right balance between devastating, game-ending penalties and pointless quirks is the challenge.

 

[Leyrann]

Because he wasn't great either?

He united Italy, right? Or am I confusing him with VE the first? He sure has one of the most impressive (and arguably ugly...) memorials of any leader in the world. I mean, the pyramids and Taj Mahal are ahead, but he isn't far behind.

but it's entirely possible he or she doesn't even play the game.

If any of your developers doesn't play the game you're developing you're doing something wrong.

 

[Zdarg]

He united Italy, right?

As they taught me at school, Cavour united it. The king just happened to be king at the time.

 

[bbbt]

To limit the number of entirely new systems that might be added to the game, I would consider integrating Disasters into the Emergency system. As it stands, the Emergency system is primarily focused on military aspects of the game. I think opening this up to natural disasters, economic crises, and diplomatic disputes could add more variety. A Civ going bankrupt, (abstracted) stock market crashes, territorial disputes that can involve casus belli and loyalty. I think there

In tying disasters to the Emergency system, it could warn a player of impending doom in order to take the edge off the random factor even ask other players to lend their aid in exchange for bonuses. Reddit user Zigzagzigal suggested rewarding players who commit resources to helping out another player with a disaster with more voting power in the World Congress (if that mechanic returns).

Definitely something like this. It could also tie in with city states - i.e. assisting with their post-disaster reconstruction could in you points. Could done like the 'international projects' (olympics etc.) from 5 with 'reconstruction projects' or other methods (Carthage needs 3 medic units to recover from the disaster, whoever delivers them first, etc.)

They could also make clear the danger areas from the beginning to make it risk-reward. For example 'Vesuvius' as a new natural wonder than gives +2 science to each neighboring tile - but might blow in three tile radius at some point of the game. Clear 'fault lines' on the map from the beginning so you can decide if it's worth the earthquake gamble settling there, etc.

They really have a lot of ways they could do it in a fun manner, we'll see what (if anything) gets made of it.

The thing is, though, nobody knows the difference between a good play and a bad one when the game is still under development. All the AI person can do - all anybody could do at that stage - is ask the development team how they think the AI should act under various circumstances, and then implement a decision tree as best they can.

You can do it with machine learning: You load an all AI game on a machine, your entire Dev team turns out the lights and holds hands around the computer, and chants 'Machine Learning' three times, and boom, optimized AI patterns pop out.

 

[Leyrann]

As they taught me at school, Cavour united it. The king just happened to be king at the time.

Ah, okay. My knowledge doesn't go very far. So Cavour is kind of the Italian Bismarck?

 

[donald23]

I think it just boils down to they appear to have just one person working on the AI (at least from the credits), and he has to implement the ability for the AI to even recognize/use the new mechanisms (never mind even use them competently) as well refine the existing ones, and that might be simply too much on one persons plate.

Check the credits of previous installments. This is the first installment that has a dedicated AI person. Previously it fell to one of the designers as a subtask.

I think the current way is better and will yield a better AI in the end.

 

[Zdarg]

So Cavour is kind of the Italian Bismarck?

Yeah.
By the way, today is exactly 166 years till him becoming prime-minister.

 

[acluewithout]

We discussed it briefly in the other thread, but I reiterate in this one.

If this leak holds actual weight, Vesuvius would be a fitting codename for an expansion that added Natural Disasters to the game.

To limit the number of entirely new systems that might be added to the game, I would consider integrating Disasters into the Emergency system. As it stands, the Emergency system is primarily focused on military aspects of the game. I think opening this up to natural disasters, economic crises, and diplomatic disputes could add more variety. A Civ going bankrupt, (abstracted) stock market crashes, territorial disputes that can involve casus belli and loyalty. I think there are a number of interesting cases to be found here.

In tying disasters to the Emergency system, it could warn a player of impending doom in order to take the edge off the random factor even ask other players to lend their aid in exchange for bonuses. Reddit user Zigzagzigal suggested rewarding players who commit resources to helping out another player with a disaster with more voting power in the World Congress (if that mechanic returns).

It may not be historically accurate, but I would think about using Religious infrastructure as a means to increase warning accuracy and/or mitigate certain penalties from them. This could also be extended to Scientific infrastructure later on to represent the development of measurement tools and detection.

Of course too many protective measures risk making disasters a bit pointless, so one would have to be careful with going overboard. Finding the right balance between devastating, game-ending penalties and pointless quirks is the challenge.

I could see natural disasters or other emergencies being awesome. But I’m not confident FXS could implement something that really nails this at this stage of development. At least, not unless that was all they’d been working on for the past 12 months, and everything else the game needs is coming in a third expansion.

Honestly. Civ VI is a hugely ambitious game. My real concern is that FXS can’t deliver on what is already in the game. I really hope they work on diplomacy and those things - adding that and then also fixing / fleshing out everything else is then crazy ambitious.

Above all, I really hope FXS plan to keep working on the game post the next expansion - whether a third expansion or a few very focused dlc. It’s the only way I think we’ll ever get a version of Civ that totally nails it.

Check the credits of previous installments. This is the first installment that has a dedicated AI person. Previously it fell to one of the designers as a subtask.

I think the current way is better and will yield a better AI in the end.

I’m willing to give FXS the benefit of the doubt on the AI. It’s gotten a lot better, and it must be tough working on it while the game mechanics are still developing.

I know everyone says this, but I think FXS would do better if they spoke with the audience more. They could skip the whole developer diary rubbish eg early views of unfinalised game systems, but a bit of feed back on what they’re working on generally and various balance decisions would be greatly appreciated. Even just a “yeah, we’d like to improve the AI and are working on it / will work on it / are not working on it but might look at it post expansion” would be good.

 

[Vandlys]

I would simply like to see Civilizations get a minus to judging you for warmongering, on how much war they themselves initiate. I am currently playing a Korea game where I have been attacked twice, and once during that attack finished off the Zulu (who had been at war with Australia for hundreds of years). I razed one of their cities (their last, tiny city, removing them from game), and when Australia declared war on me, I took the original Zulu capital (next to my borders) and nothing else. All my cities were surrounding my capital, so nothing far off, while Australia was going rampant, founding 11 cities. Of course they called me a warmonger the whole game, while making friends with Mongolia (who also constantly denounced me for being a warmonger) who controlled one massive continent, and the capitals of Rome and the Aztec.

So yeah, I'm the warmonger for taking one city that doesn't even belong to you? Rubbish system.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

You can do it with machine learning: You load an all AI game on a machine, your entire Dev team turns out the lights and holds hands around the computer, and chants 'Machine Learning' three times, and boom, optimized AI patterns pop out.

You made my day bro.

 

[Proclo]

Definitely something like this. It could also tie in with city states - i.e. assisting with their post-disaster reconstruction could in you points. Could done like the 'international projects' (olympics etc.) from 5 with 'reconstruction projects' or other methods (Carthage needs 3 medic units to recover from the disaster, whoever delivers them first, etc.)

I definitly think more City-States misions are needed to make the game more interesting, not just one per era. And this idea is indeed a great idea. Also, I think international projects were one of the funniest World Congress mechanics'.

They could also make clear the danger areas from the beginning to make it risk-reward. For example 'Vesuvius' as a new natural wonder than gives +2 science to each neighboring tile - but might blow in three tile radius at some point of the game. Clear 'fault lines' on the map from the beginning so you can decide if it's worth the earthquake gamble settling there, etc.

In this case I have to desagree. In the early and midgame they should only make clear the danger area throught exploration and some kind of "random discovery" like in the Outback Tyconn scenerio. Also the Tribal Villages with their marvelous "map of the area gift" should make you aware of theese kind of dangers. Of course after the research of some techs campuses and maybe the explorerers branch could discover theese areas.

 

[Art Grin]

Just had a thought: what if Eleanor of Aquitaine is appearing in a scenario added with the new expansion? Can't think what it would be - perhaps something Crusades-y, or around Henry II's wars with his sons and the French - but it seems a bit more plausible than her being an out-and-out leader.

Or a medieval Europe scenario set around the 12/13th century. Could work well if Turks and the Byzantines are part of the expansion.

 

[Weraptor]

Aren't we overthinking this waifu.jpg character a little? It may as well be a red herring from a trolling Firaxis employee who let the leak out.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Yes, don't just have blind faith. All of this is a hoax until proven otherwise (tho I believe everything leaked so far is fairly legit, other than Queen Waifu)

lmao this reminds me of GeorgiaGate and how everyone tried to identify an unclear grey pixellated bust as Tamar lmao <3