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New female leader for China

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by halfhalfharp, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2016
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    Leader: Dowager Cixi


    Background:
    Dowager Cixi was the last dowager empress of imperial China and was the last de facto ruler to hold power. Her reign was a huge controversy in chinese history, not because she was female, but because Chinese empire met its end in her hands. People talked of her reluctance of reformation, egregious expense on luxuries, hilariously declaring war to the entire world (This is true) without noticing China was of no match to industrial powers... The list of her mis-steps goes on and on.

    Although she made so many mis-steps in that critical condition, Cixi was in fact, a ruler of merit and political wits, even exceeding many emperors. She cleverly balanced the powers in the court, putting down numerous rebellions that could ravage any empire in history and managed to hold the already dying imperial China in one piece. All these were achieved by a woman, who never left the palace and according to traditions, could only control state-matters in indirect ways. That defined her difference from emperor Wu ZeTian (Yes, her title was emperor) and her capability of ruling.

    In the matters of reformation, Cixi was actually devoting much into it, seeing how China lost in front of the might of steam power and science. But all was already too late.

    Some may argue that she wasn't a good leader example because the condition she faced didn't allow so. But lets see the leaders in Civ 6:
    Cleopatra was defeated by the tides and ended ancient Egypt
    while Montezuma was conquered and mighty Aztec collapsed with his death.

    If Cleopatra can be given a chance to atone her empire, if Montezuma can be given one more chance to face against the change of tides, I suppose Cixi deserves that too.

    Leader Ability: Struggle of traditions
    When a policy is used for more than 3 turns, she gains double benefits from internal trade routes and an accumulating +2 culture:c5culture: per turn to her entire empire, up to +20. Any foreign military unit on her land or replacing policies removes this bonus. If she opens border or have a war declared, she gains +100% science:c5science: output to technologies that the target civilization has. Every city with a foreign religion tilts 10% of her culture output to science, up to 50%.

    Unique Unit: Boxers
    They are combat units come by mysticism, replaces nothing and obsoleted by enlightenment civics. The can initiate theological combat, instantly killing a missionary or 50% hp of an apostle, even without a religion of their own. Also they can launch inquisition to her own cities. They are not religious units so cannot be attacked by apostles.

    Note: The Boxers were rebellions in early 1900s that aimed to clear China of foreign missionaries. They were rebels by name, but were actually supported directly or indirectly by the government. The historians say that the boxers were especially approved by Cixi.

    Unique Building: Chinese opera house
    A unique building replacing the amphitheater. +2 culture:c5culture: when adjacent to holy site, entertainment complex or campus. Each great work housing in the opera house gives bonus to adjacent districts. +2 science:c5science: for campus, +2 faith:c5faith: to holy site, +1 amenity:c5happy: to entertainment campus.

    Note: Watching Chinese opera was a popular leisure activity in Qing Dynasty China. The opera plots are normally based on religious myths and historical stories, providing inspirations for thousands of people. It was also one of the most favorite hobby of Cixi herself.

    Playstyle:
    Playing as Cixi faces the eternal balance between science:c5science: and culture:c5culture:. It is a choice between facing the world or shutting yourself from others. The leader ability keeps up the culture growth, giving step-stone for cultural victory. The production:c5production: and food:c5food: bonus through internal trades:trade: is also good for city growth and building. She can also shift to science route by increasing contact with the world, making sure that she will never fall behind in science. The unique unit does not give her a good offensive scale. Instead they can help her balance out the science/culture tilt brought by foreign religions.

    Strength: Great output of culture or science, depending on play-style. Great defensive capability in religious victory. The UU is also effective in converting captured cities with warring.

    Weakness: Lack of direct bonus to tourism/Great person in the cultural route. The science from opening border/war does not make her surpass the others, while the science from religious bonus is rather passive, and is unlikely to gear with cultural/religious route. The lack of military advantages also makes domination victory less possible. The need of producing more unit to body block enemy units in order to keep the cultural growth also discourages this.

    Leader Agenda: Flattered

    Cixi likes flattery. The best way is to give her beneficial terms in direct trades. She likes being gifted a lot and dislike civilization that with an extra copy of luxuries but does not trade it.

    Agenda approval: Hohoho, enough. Take it back. What you gifted me is of nothing special.
    (呵呵呵, 夠了夠了, 拿回去罷, 哀家不稀罕.)

    Agenda disapproval: Your speech and act with SUCH prudence has been under my attention. Very well, very well...
    (謹言慎行, 安守本份, 哀家早就看在眼內. 好的很, 好的很.)

    Leader Lines: (In modern written formal Mandarin )

    Introduction: I am the holy dowager empress of Qing Empire. Our great nation is pleased to meet with new ambassadors.
    (哀家乃大清聖母皇太后, 堂堂大清, 樂於接待蕃邦小國.)

    Declared war: You call yourself a civilized nation, but your deeds are merely barbaric. We will never back down from your insult.
    (彼自稱教化之國,乃無禮橫行, 我大清四萬萬眾, 忠信甲冑,絕無臨陣退縮!)

    Declared war: The tolerance of our government is no more!! I'd rather meet you on battlefield than living in cowardice!!
    (朝廷柔服遠人,至矣盡矣!與其苟且圖存,貽羞萬古,不如一決雌雄!)

    Defeated: I blamed my foolishness. Please forgive my people and leave them alone.
    (哀家罪己。念友邦高抬貴手,諒我大清愚民。)

    Notes: The declare war and declared war lines are retrieved from her real historical official war declaration.

    Commentary:
    I am afraid that this design is too OP. How do you guys think?

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    New Wonder Suiting Cixi

    With introduction of Cixi, lets add the famous building that was built for herself, the luxurious Summer Palace.

    (OMG the picture is so big. Apologies, I don't know how to make it smaller here)

    Technology: Engineering

    Requirement: must be built on land tiles beside a lake.

    Effect: It can provide the surrounding lake tiles with +3 culture:c5culture: and tourism:tourism:. Also, it can be assigned with a citizen to give 50% tourism :tourism:of the total GPT the country has, but consuming 100 gold :c5gold:every turn.

    Note: The summer palace was dedicated to Cixi for her retirement (returning the power to the emperor). It cost an astronomically high price to build. It was rumored that this giant garden complex cost the funding of the navy, greatly weakening China in the coming wars.

    Miscellaneous staffs:
    If adding a theme music for Cixi, I would propose this one. This music is from a TV series talking about the royal concubines in Qing dynasty, just hauntingly beautiful and super fits Cixi.

    This music also fits Cixi. It gives a more disastrous and sad feeling, a theme song from another TV series depicting Cixi herself.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
    liv likes this.
  2. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    That is pretty good. Very unique.
     
  3. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Thank you!!

    I am not really good at numbers.
    Will she be too op? since her ability gives her a lot of scales towards Science or Culture.
     
  4. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    I am not the best either with numbers. I think it could look like +5 is a bit too much.
     
  5. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Oh, you mean the Unique building part?
    It needs to house greatworks in order to give that bonus but Cixi doesn't have any ability towards Great Person.
    I am afraid that it won't be useful in practical so I scale it a bit higher. (You know, especially when you are facing Brazil, the Great Person Black Hole)
    Still I supposed I should tone it down a bit, how about a +2 bonus only?
     
  6. liv

    liv Chieftain

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    That looks better
     
  7. Hanaboshi

    Hanaboshi Chieftain

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  8. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    "The butterfly lover" and "Chrysanthemum terrace" are nice touches to chinese music.

    But I think they don't represent the Beijing style of music, which is a more northern style.

    For "butterfly lover", it sounds too lovely, depicting the love between teenagers. Not really suitable for some old lady holding a collapsing empire. Also it is taken from the Yue Opera pieces, a fairly different style from the nothern Jing (Capital) style.

    For Chrysanthemum Terrace, it is the theme song for a film( so its not an opera piece, its a song sung by Jay Chow, an taiwanese star). It sounds great, although by feeling I will say its tone is too pleasant. And the film itself is depicting a Tang dynasty like theme, you know, WuZetian's era. I will credit it to Wu, or a Taiwanese ruler.

    No offense, but chinese will laugh if they hear Chrysanthemum terrace for Cixi. You know, a song sung by taiwanese lol. The regional reference just cannot match

    I am happy to know that someone knows chinese music haha.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  9. Hanaboshi

    Hanaboshi Chieftain

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    It's a correct argument if we judge it by the cover. However, doesn't the story of butterfly lover & Cixi's story is quite similar? In Butterfly lovers' story, the female protagonist still longs for the male protagonist although he is no longer living that she ended her own life. Cixi's greed blinded her from reality, killed his son in order to preserve her power, putting a child on the throne and ended the reign of imperial China by bankrupting the nation. Both stories have the same poetic theme which is greed kills. I think it's just would be a much better theme for Cixi because of the composer's cultural importance than a TV show theme song.

    I suggested Chrysantemum Terrace because Chinese police choir did the cover of the song and I believe that he himself had sang on Chinese television. Mo Li Hua itself which was created during Qing dynasty became the theme for Qin Shi Huang. I don't think the setting on where and when it was created was really that of importance as music is universal
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  10. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I cannot see the similarity of Cixi's life story to the "Butterfly Lover" (Really, where is the greed kills? Did we have different versions of the story?). Pardon me, let's skip that point then.

    Talking of cultural importance, I suspect the validity of this point. As we can see, firaxis doesn't mind this anyway, take the example of Egypt (El Helwa Di is an arabic pop song). Mu Li Hua should never be on the list. (Its lyrics and music composition are not among the best of chinese pieces, I do prefer Guo Shan Liu Shui in Civ V, which is a real master piece.) If we really want to show that "cultural importance", Cixi can always sing the national anthem I guess.

    Taking Chrysantemum Terrace into choir is one of the most horrible decision ever. :crazyeye: A song drawing out the beautiful scene of lone lover and withered chrysanthemum was turned into something like the "Yellow River Cantata"
    I can only say...... Well, great job, police choir.:crazyeye: Please, choir is the last thing I can imagine with that song.

    Minor correction, Mu Li Hua was a Ming Dynasty song, but thats not important anyway.
     
  11. Hanaboshi

    Hanaboshi Chieftain

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    Wow, chill. Lol. Why are you taking such an offense just for a song choice ?
    Yep, both stories are telling about greed, longing for something that unattainable and ended the protagonist's life. Cixi had already realized the end of the age of deference long before Puyi. Otherwise, she wouldn't put a mere child on the throne.

    I never said that the problem lies on whether the song is a pop song, in fact the Chrysantemum Terrace that I suggested was a pop song. What are you talking about ? The song was created during Emperor Qianlong reign. Mo Li Hua IS a significant cultural piece, despite only a few Chinese knew about it. It was the first Chinese song to be introduced to western audience and even accepted by the western people on the 19th century. It was even adapted into western opera by Puccini called Turandot. If national anthem should be a theme song, every nation should to which is unreasonable, isn't it ?

    Yes, Gui Shan Liu Shui was a great piece that even became a great work on civ V. However, it's not really "suitable for the western ear" if you know what I mean. Yes, I agree that Yellow River Song should be on the list of great works.
     
  12. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Apologies if you mind on my seriousness. I am afraid I have a pair of "eastern ears" so I stay alerted when you talk about "cultural importance". And why are you afraid of real discussions? Anyway it will be such a shame to offend someone who opens a discussion, as they are always welcome. So accept my apologies if I caused any offense, but you should understand that I have my own scales, though I respect other opinions.

    And on the factual matter, I suppose I made a mistake Mo Li Hua was a Qing song. It is true that Mo Li Hua is really not popular for chinese ears although everyone has heard of it at least. My neutrality on your other views is astronomically high, in order to keep you un-offended. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  13. Hanaboshi

    Hanaboshi Chieftain

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    Well, real discussions only works when both parties try to think logically, isn't it ? So again, on which point am I being offended ? :lol: Being hot headed really makes discussions goes nowhere only ended on shouting match and insulting each other just like what you wrote on your last two posts. Yes, as I was saying, it's really unfortunate that only a few Mainland Chinese knew their 1000 years culture.
     
  14. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Really, did I insult you with apologies? I don't know what to say to keep the discussion logical and civil then.

    For your last sentence, maybe. I am not a mainlander so I don't really know.
     
  15. Hanaboshi

    Hanaboshi Chieftain

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    Idk, the way you are tring to point out that "I'm afraid of real discussions", "Choir Police" is just clearly insults and I understand where you came from if you were Chinese. Oh and I'm sorry if that's what made you feel offended, however it's just a fact that only few Mainland Chinese knew about the Chinese culture. Many Chinese prefer to be westernized, or creating new identity than preserving the Chinese old cultural heritage of the past.
     
  16. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    "just a song choice"

    The message I got from here is that you don't like my seriousness in discussions. So I am asking if you are really not liking to discuss it in depth. Not really meant to challenge or offend.

    But the "police choir" part. I am just showing my dislike of distasteful use of songs in choirs. I speak what i dislike. Its my only part that I cant stay perpetually neutral in discussion. Apologies if that offends any sensitive mind.

    I assumed you are non-chinese, right? And again about the mainlanders' cultural level, maybe thats true. But there are 1.4( or 1.5?) billion people living in China so I suppose a general impression or stereotype can't be accurate. You know, I bet you have met less than a million chinese in yoir life, which is still 0.001% of the entire population.

    There are many who doesn't know traditional culture, true. But there can be also many who knows it. You just can't be sure what you will find out of the 1.4 billion population.

    As a chinese, personally I dispise some of the traditional values, but I have never adored so-called westernization.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  17. Hanaboshi

    Hanaboshi Chieftain

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    Well, you can say what you like in a forum, however there is a limitation on how you should response to others. For one, attacking others by telling them they are "afraid of serious discussion" and "a choir police" on the first reply is definitely not how you engage on a discussion.

    Secondly, just guess again, honey, even when I've tried to save face you are still trying to look down on me.

    Ah, yes, there could be many who knows Chinese culture, however it's still a fact there it is still few of them in Mainland. I've travelled from Hainan to Harbin, from Shanghai to Xinjiang writing my thesis on this and I can share it on this forum after it finished. Only few people in Southern China wanted to try to revive Hanfu, few wants to organize a Chinese instument orchestra in Beijing and only few wants to learn Old poetry. Isn't that the reason why there is 中国诗词大会 on CCTV ? That's what made me to conclude that only few Chinese knows about their own culture.
     
  18. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    If you really mind that, so be it I guess. My apology means nothing to you so I won't show that curtesy again.

    Well, I don't want to guess. But giving me Chrysanthemum Terrace and talking of cultural importance to "western ears" sounds pretty non-chinese to me. I sincerely wish you are not chinese.

    Music, dress style, words. Those are narrow meaning of culture. (I didnt make up this, its the define of culture) One who knows his cultural root doesn't mean that he has to wear Hanfu all day long, talks in ancient formal chinese and writes those poems. Those things are like fashions, always being modified. When they are just wiped out by the tides of time, well, reviving them doesnt make anyone more cultured.

    And, a lot of Chinese farmers living in villages. They are not so well educated, so if you expect them to learn poems, i guess you will surely be disappointed. You won't say that they know little of their culture right? They have been living a farming life for hundreds or thousands of years.

    Culture that ties chinese together as chinese, is about the values that chinese has been inheriting for thousands of years. e.g. the concept of morality, family and making peace with others. ( and also selfishness, kind of a side effect) I think the western ideas like democracy, freedom have its influence. But according to what i see, the traditional values are still stubbornly there. I suppose the statement that "most chinese don't know their culture" never includes this broader meaning of culture?

    If you are really writing a thesis arguing on this topic, I hope you can have a wider view, or at least define it clearly that you are making use of the narrowest define of culture. Or else, you should prepare to defend against a wave of chinese scholars.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017

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