New Game- random leader:Roosevelt

[UnforcedError]

Good job in posting up a game

Building basic improvements on tiles with resources you are yet to research the required technology for is fairly common practice: farming / cottaging / mining AH or Calendar resources especially. The idea behind it is the bonus food / commerce the resource tile yields in itself. Whether you replace it later with the correct improvement is up to the situation, really. You wouldn't necessarily tear down a town to replace it with a plantation. In this case you're probably better off researching AH as well, as your second city is likely to get the sheep N. It's not a great city but it can whip and chop so it's still worth settling.

Totally agree with Jastrow on the Great Lighthouse although a learning game probably shouldn't be about building a broken wonder

 

[Jastrow]

Yes, the great lighthouse is a bit of a crutch, but lets face facts... Moving up through the levels (past, say monarch) is in great part about learning how to identify which crutch best applies to a given game, and then taking advantage of it.

This map is quite brutal by Nobel standards... You need to expand something like 10 turns away from the capital to get copper, and then it is in the wrong direction for a rush. Rex is therefore indicated, and the rex needs to be payed for. We have no money resources (gold, gems) nearby, and not even coastal resources for the commerce. Workers have tons of chopping to do, and not much time to build a road network.

The synergy to using sailing for connecting resources, and great light house trade routes to pay for the rex is a pretty straighforward option.

 

[pigswill]

I'd probably go AH next, looks like you'll need all available food sooner rather than later. Finding horses may also change your plan.
Buildwise I'd complete the warrior then a WB while growing to explore the coast. The warrior can explore the north coast for a few turns because you won't need an MP unit yet and its too early for barbs. Send the WB south. Seafood would make a difference.

 

[lymond]

Wow...that really is very bad land. I hate to say it, but I'd really encourage a re-roll. I think it is very important to teach Joe very basic things and not some quite unorthodox stuff like building GLH on a Pangaea map.

 

[Jastrow]

I dont know... On the one hand, learning to play the map is a very important skill. On the other, there is certainly something to be said for picking up the basics first...

 

[UnforcedError]

I just fear that getting used to beeline a wonder might cause some bad habits like trying to build it on every map. I think learning to win games without building a single wonder is probably the best way to get better in this game. You really don't need either of those on Noble, not even with a poor map like this. I agree that this map is unusually horrible for a Pangea. Re-roll if you like. However, this will not be your first Noble win and we'll help if you decide otherwise.
Since the idea of the Great Lighthouse already came up and you're IND so the temptation might be too big, this is what you should keep in mind for future games in order to determine whether to try and build it or not:
The Great Lighthouse is about coastal trade route commerce. It's one way of getting lots of early commerce which will fuel your research and expansion.

1. You need at least six potential coastal city spots.
2. You need established foreign trade routes. (That means you have open borders with at least another civilization, preferably more and are connected via road, river or coast. You have to unfog the water route and research Sailing to get the coastal trade routes.)
3. You preferably want some (potential) island cities. Island cities count as 'intercontinental' which will have a bonus yield on the trade routes involving this particular city right from the beginning.

You can see from what you uncovered of the land that you have plenty of coastal city spots, you have potential trading partners and (presumably) even some island city sites. This is why Jastrow suggested to go with the GLH.

 

[lymond]

I dont know... On the one hand, learning to play the map is a very important skill. On the other, there is certainly something to be said for picking up the basics first...

Yeah, we can theorize about what is best/not best for learning, but the bottom line is this map offers absolutely no means for a basic level of training which is desired for Joe. Also, I don't think GLH is a good habit to get in with Pangaea maps. All it offers is a variety of advanced higher level type strategies or ploys to make the most out of a very bad map, which is just most confusing for a player of Joe's level and does more harm than good at this point.

Generally, Pangaea will offer a nice ability to establish a good compact empire from which to build from. Good practice for those starting out or otherwise having a lot of issues with Noble difficulty.

We can get cutesy later on but what Joe needs is not cutesy. And then there's things that are completely wrong like...erm...waiting til Maths to chop forests.

Joe - I highly recommend you roll another map. Sorry this one did not work out. You can just edit your OP with all the new info and save and indicated that you have done so. One of us can do a quick check of the map to make sure it is suitable.

 

[MarigoldRan]

I'd consider plopping a city on the marble and building an oracle. Marble on hills gives 3 hammers to the city tile. When that city grows to pop 2, you can work the gold for a surprisingly decent city (6 production and 6-7 commerce) despite the absolute lack of food.

Every city with a gold mine automatically pays for itself.

 

[joe6778]

Spoiler :

I re-rolled.

Kublai Khan
Same options as before.
Pangea map. Normal speed.

Could you please explain why I should do a certain action? Just telling me to do such and such doesn't explain the benefits of the action. Thanks.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Consider re-rolling again. Plains cow.

Reasoning: the algorithm always gives you SOME food in your starting city location. The worst possible thing they give you is plains cow, which is what you have. Above all, you need some strong food resource in your capital city.

The good side of your start? If you settle 1S, you get a starting city with two hammers instead of 1. Also, there's a lot of forests and you're guaranteed two flood plains you can farm.

 

[Fippy]

Scout move is not unimportant here, cos you want more food for your Cap if possible
Also moving off floodplains would be good..so you must see how you can reveal some surroundings.
Chances are higher you find something useful north, so you should move 1NE first, then depending on what you see another step either NE, N or NW.

 

[shadojack]

Emperor level player, take my suggestion with a grain of salt.
I would consider regenerating your start until you have a good site with a nice river and strong food.
Plains cows starts in general reek. The flood-plains (or adjacent land) might save this start, but it is a toss up.
Now if you are thinking you should be more picky for your starts until you start feeling you need a challenge, then yes, exactly. From what I have seen you are feeling a bit frustrated so regenerate starts, be picky and go with a good one, although perhaps not one with gold or gems in the visible region. Go with a start with a good river, solid land based food (food is king) and the gurus here will be able to guide you into Civ4 glory.
There are some great players offering some good advice, but Lymond is probably one of the most consistent and patient teachers currently posting. It was good to see VoiceofUnreason post on this thread because he really helped advance my game.
Cheers.

 

[joe6778]

Spoiler :

After two more tries, I got Shaka. Is this any better?

 

[enKage]

I just fear that getting used to beeline a wonder might cause some bad habits like trying to build it on every map. I think learning to win games without building a single wonder is probably the best way to get better in this game.

I totally disagree. If you want industrious leader not to build wonders, you should also play financial without cottages and philo with heavy cottaged cities.

Rossevelt is THE BEST leader for Great Lighthouse (trait combo and starting techs) and playing Roosevelt GLH should be prioritised always if possible, especially with some forests in BFC. I see no reason not to use it. I think limited number of wonders is worth considering, but not to discard the obvious choice for this leader.

I think learning how to play without a single wonder is nice idea, but with non industrious leaders.

BTW
GLH on pangea map is not gamebraking (GLH coupled with marble-temple of artemis can be gamebraking, Carthage with GLH is far more gamebreaking))


It is a pity this game will not be continued... It would be fantastic lesson how to play the map where good land was given to someone else.

 

[enKage]

I'd consider plopping a city on the marble and building an oracle. Marble on hills gives 3 hammers to the city tile. When that city grows to pop 2, you can work the gold for a surprisingly decent city (6 production and 6-7 commerce) despite the absolute lack of food.

Every city with a gold mine automatically pays for itself.

If I settled marble, I will go for Temple of Artemis instead if GLH already owned (better trade routes, faster great merchant with a good advantage against prophet)


@ joe
Shaka's start is not perfect, but really nice.
A
About leader
Shaka has one crappy trait (aggresive) and one very good (expansive). Unique unit is so-so, but can be very useful against some civs. UBuilding is really good, it allows some savings (1-2 gold per city). He has good starting techs (Hunting allows his UU and Agri is the best one possible)
B
You have 2 food resources (5food), some hills, some river tiles. One you can irrigate from the start, the second very soon - Animal Husbandry is very cheap for you (2 pre-techs) so pigs in BFC are fantastic.

You should move your scout to reveal as much land as possible - 2NE or 1 SE
Without moving a scout the obvious place for settling is a plain hill 1E (additional hammer on city tile). Probably moving a scout 2NE will not change this decision, so I will choose moving him 1SE. If additional powerful tile revealed (gold, gems, grass cows) settling 1S could be consider. Otherwise - stick to plainhill


EDIT
The best thing about playing Shaka is that you won't play against him (but there are still some psychos available: Monte, Cathy, Genghis, Mehmed...)

 

[Packers5280]

Yeah, joe, that start looks better. Pigs are one of the best foods out there. I would probably move the scout SE onto the hill to see if there's anything good to the south. If not, I'd SIP. I'd probably SIP anyways.

First tech would probably be AH to get the bacon online. Shaka's got both hunting and ag, so AH would be fairly cheap. Then mining>BW, imo. Then, if you have Cu, you could get to Impi's if someone is decently close.

 

[enKage]

Yeah, joe, that start looks better. Pigs are one of the best foods out there. I would probably move the scout SE onto the hill to see if there's anything good to the south. If not, I'd SIP. I'd probably SIP anyways.

First tech would probably be AH to get the bacon online. Shaka's got both hunting and ag, so AH would be fairly cheap. Then mining>BW, imo. Then, if you have Cu, you could get to Impi's if someone is decently close.

I cant believe you prefer SIP rather than plainhill o_O Additional hammer is always worth loosing 1 turn if still the same bonus tiles are in BFC
And more:
1E gives earlier worker.
Shaka is expansive, so you want 4 hammers from the very beginning to get worker faster. It will not be possible when you settle in place

SIP = worker: 8 turns*4 =32, borderpop 6turns+5hammer, so it is 14 turns and 2 overflow
Settle plainhills: 1 turn (moving settler) 10 turns *6, that is worker ready 3 turns earlier = food ready 3 turns earlier....

 

[lymond]

(gosh..please stop talking about useless wonders...lets keep this stuff basic and simple)

Joe - I think the Shake map will do. I would settle on the plains hill for the initial hammer boost will still keeping the food.

AH>Mining>BW to start. AH as the Pigs is a nice food tile and rice alone ain't sufficient.

(In the future, please turn of huts and events for these games. They are misleading in a positive or negative way and most around here don't play with them on)

Before you start playing, analyze your leader and civ. Any strengths or weakness?

 

[Robert FIN]

@lymond: Can you help me like that too in next Nobles' Club game lymond? I sometimes feel like I've skipped some very basic things before moving to Monarch ! @Joe: The start looks a bit better now ! When posting us second round screenshots when the time comes, try to snap a picture of the whole map or make more than one screenshot.

 

[Jastrow]

Yeah, we can theorize about what is best/not best for learning, but the bottom line is this map offers absolutely no means for a basic level of training which is desired for Joe. Also, I don't think GLH is a good habit to get in with Pangaea maps.

All wonders are a bad "Habit"... They are right only when they make sense...

which is just most confusing for a player of Joe's level and does more harm than good at this point.

The more I think about it, the more I think you are right on this point.

.waiting til Maths to chop forests.

Did someone reccomend that. I certainly did not, and would never even dream of it on this map.