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New Game- random leader:Roosevelt

That's absolutely great, Joe, and that means you should say goodbye to Noble right after this game and move up a bit :thumbsup:

So, space it is, then :)

We won't have a record finish date (for that we'd already want to have a Bur capital established, optimally with Oxford in place already), but you have a very strong foundation on cities so I'm pretty sure we can improve on your personal record. :)

We already discussed the general strategy on space games earlier in this thread, let's recap on them:

1. We want lots of cities. So many cities that we almost trip the domination limit. Cities are power. Most of our cities won't ever do much after building their basic infra: they'll build wealth or they'll build research for the most part of the game. This is what makes them useful.

2. We do not want vassals, especially not on Noble. Vassals are bad for a space game as half of their land counts towards your domination limit, and all they give you in return is +1 happy and some diplo penalties in the end. A Noble AI is very slow on teching anything so we can't even use them for researching at all.

3. We want Civil Service, Oxford (Education) asap and of course (much) later Liberalism. We need to establish a cottage capital right away. The was I see it Umma is the only contender. Turfan and Karakorum have more riverside tiles but not enough food and Hamburg has less river tiles than 9. Umma isn't the best cottage cap we've ever seen but it'll do, plus it already has the gold and some soon-to-be towns. It will require some serious micromanagement to build the capital and the university there though. Oxford should be easier with the stone.

4. Geez, we captured marble, fantastic :) Let's send workers there to improve it immediately! Yes, we will have to wonderspam a bit for our space game. The Great Library, Mausoleum of Maussolos are all things we want right away (and later probably Sankore and AP). Gilgamesh already has Calendar but he looks to have zero production, Pacal might build it for us but he might also be our next target. :D

5. We want to finish off Bismarck and then take at least another AI with our stack. Great that the scout is already in place it should scout out Pacal and then see who the last AI is. We can decide on Pacal vs Ragnar later.

6. We don't want to tech Feudalism. What we need is the Civil Service - Paper - Education line and also the Aesthetics - Literature - Music line. Let's do this for now:
- trade Code of Laws to Gilgamesh for Monotheism + gold. This is a trade strongly in his favour but we need Monotheism urgently to have a bonus on moving the capital. Also, this will build up relations with Gilgamesh who we do not want to attack ever in this game, simply because he's too far away.
- let's switch to Organized Religion and Representation. (I'm afraid this looks like 2T anarchy but we don't have a great person handy to fire a Golden Age)
- let's adopt Confucianism. (one more turn of Anarchy).
- our units should continue doing a great job in beating Bismarck. Stack should move to the ivory tile (use the impi to smash it) and then move on to the flood plain where they can attack Hamburg from. Why did you attack Berlin from across the river btw?
- workers should improve the marble.
- workers should start building cottages on Umma's other riverside tiles.
- scout should continue towards Pacal.
- no need to micro cities yet because of the Anarchy. We will get to that later.

Could you play these three turns and then upload? It's important that we get our research going as optimally as possible right away and I will have an easier time to see how we can do this after the switches have been made.

1) Doesn't this cause a maintenance problem?
2) What if the enemy AIs grab vassals? Isn't that a threat?
6) If we're not teching military, isn't that inviting attack? Would this work with an aggressive AI? My mistake attacking Berlin across the river.
 
1) Doesn't this cause a maintenance problem?
2) What if the enemy AIs grab vassals? Isn't that a threat?
6) If we're not teching military, isn't that inviting attack? Would this work with an aggressive AI? My mistake attacking Berlin across the river.
Maintenance problem: yes. But we will first try to cope with that by building wealth in some cities and later on we will whip courthouses. That's the way to go. Also, building ikhandas in all cities lowers the maintenance by 20% as well and they're cheap buildings for us, so even worth building in cities that won't produce military.

2. We will kill Bismarck and take 1-2 more AIs, depending on how much we can afford to stay safely within the domination limit. The other AIs simply won't matter in this game. All they will be good for is giving us a bit of gold for techs.

6. No. If we have a lot more power than any AI they simply won't attack us even if we don't build any units. (Number of cities, population and certain buildings and technologies are also counted when calculating power.) However, we have a huge stack now, which should be enough to start a war against the next guy as well. Plus we will stay ahead on technologies meaning we can always pay them off if they'd still dare to attack us.

Also, we will have enough tech advantage to bribe in the AIs against each other which we will look into after killing Bismarck and deciding who to go for next.

EDIT: we will also use corporations later on in the game. Mining Inc and Sushi look both pretty strong on this map.
 
Good questions, Joe. However, keep in mind that you are playing better. Do things right early on snowballs exponentially later. On levels like Noble, you will start blowing them away in every respect, so they will never be the threats they were to you before. You will see this as you progress.

Note that while more land means more maintenance, more land means more power. Your research potential goes up tremendously with more land. More land means more commerce, hammers and Rep specialists.

Ikhanda's are a 20% reduction in maintenance costs.
 
That's absolutely great, Joe, and that means you should say goodbye to Noble right after this game and move up a bit :thumbsup:

So, space it is, then :)

We won't have a record finish date (for that we'd already want to have a Bur capital established, optimally with Oxford in place already), but you have a very strong foundation on cities so I'm pretty sure we can improve on your personal record. :)

We already discussed the general strategy on space games earlier in this thread, let's recap on them:

1. We want lots of cities. So many cities that we almost trip the domination limit. Cities are power. Most of our cities won't ever do much after building their basic infra: they'll build wealth or they'll build research for the most part of the game. This is what makes them useful.

2. We do not want vassals, especially not on Noble. Vassals are bad for a space game as half of their land counts towards your domination limit, and all they give you in return is +1 happy and some diplo penalties in the end. A Noble AI is very slow on teching anything so we can't even use them for researching at all.

3. We want Civil Service, Oxford (Education) asap and of course (much) later Liberalism. We need to establish a cottage capital right away. The was I see it Umma is the only contender. Turfan and Karakorum have more riverside tiles but not enough food and Hamburg has less river tiles than 9. Umma isn't the best cottage cap we've ever seen but it'll do, plus it already has the gold and some soon-to-be towns. It will require some serious micromanagement to build the capital and the university there though. Oxford should be easier with the stone.

4. Geez, we captured marble, fantastic :) Let's send workers there to improve it immediately! Yes, we will have to wonderspam a bit for our space game. The Great Library, Mausoleum of Maussolos are all things we want right away (and later probably Sankore and AP). Gilgamesh already has Calendar but he looks to have zero production, Pacal might build it for us but he might also be our next target. :D

5. We want to finish off Bismarck and then take at least another AI with our stack. Great that the scout is already in place it should scout out Pacal and then see who the last AI is. We can decide on Pacal vs Ragnar later.

6. We don't want to tech Feudalism. What we need is the Civil Service - Paper - Education line and also the Aesthetics - Literature - Music line. Let's do this for now:
- trade Code of Laws to Gilgamesh for Monotheism + gold. This is a trade strongly in his favour but we need Monotheism urgently to have a bonus on moving the capital. Also, this will build up relations with Gilgamesh who we do not want to attack ever in this game, simply because he's too far away.
- let's switch to Organized Religion and Representation. (I'm afraid this looks like 2T anarchy but we don't have a great person handy to fire a Golden Age)
- let's adopt Confucianism. (one more turn of Anarchy).
- our units should continue doing a great job in beating Bismarck. Stack should move to the ivory tile (use the impi to smash it) and then move on to the flood plain where they can attack Hamburg from. Why did you attack Berlin from across the river btw?
- workers should improve the marble.
- workers should start building cottages on Umma's other riverside tiles.
- scout should continue towards Pacal.
- no need to micro cities yet because of the Anarchy. We will get to that later.

Could you play these three turns and then upload? It's important that we get our research going as optimally as possible right away and I will have an easier time to see how we can do this after the switches have been made.

All set...
 
I think Joe can finish the Germans off in 2 turns, then attack the vikings...

His population already exceed the limit for domination victory...just need to conquer Ragnar and I think he'll win...


I think switching to police state would work
 
Ikhanda's are a 20% reduction in maintenance costs.
Well spotted, thanks :) I corrected it.

Joe, I will check out the game when I'm back home from work.
 
I think Joe can finish the Germans off in 2 turns, then attack the vikings...

His population already exceed the limit for domination victory...just need to conquer Ragnar and I think he'll win...


I think switching to police state would work
Probably, but he wants a space win.
 
I think Joe can finish the Germans off in 2 turns, then attack the vikings...

His population already exceed the limit for domination victory...just need to conquer Ragnar and I think he'll win...


I think switching to police state would work

Don't I need a percentage of land area for a domination win?
 
Don't I need a percentage of land area for a domination win?
62% IIRC, while you are at 22% at the moment. But we're going for space, arent't we? :)

It's not uncommon for your population to exceed the domination limit in any stage of the game.

Also, Police State is a bad advice in this case. Representation is still a lot more useful in this situation to get military tech advantage. The AIs only have 2-3 cities. You can build units much faster than them anyway. PS can potentially be useful on the higher levels where the AI has production advantages over you.

Will get home sooner or later :) Long day at the office.
 
62% IIRC, while you are at 22% at the moment. But we're going for space, arent't we? :)

It's not uncommon for your population to exceed the domination limit in any stage of the game.

Also, Police State is a bad advice in this case. Representation is still a lot more useful in this situation to get military tech advantage. The AIs only have 2-3 cities. You can build units much faster than them anyway. PS can potentially be useful on the higher levels where the AI has production advantages over you.

Will get home sooner or later :) Long day at the office.

Space Race win- correct. I was just wondering how CivNoobie could say I could win a domination victory at this point.
 
Space Race win- correct. I was just wondering how CivNoobie could say I could win a domination victory at this point.
No, we're totally safe to stay within dom if we take Ragnar. In fact, we could probably take both Ragnar and Pacal also, but we want to settle lots of cities for resources and given that we'll have sushi later we also have to consider our cultural growth. We shall see how much territory we have after finishing one of them.
 
The war: Our stack is an extreme overkill for Hamburg, that city should fall nicely next turn. Move them towards Colgone but not wait for our them to get there, take Cologne with the units you have in the area (four swords, 1 catapult, 1 elephant). He only has two archers in Cologne which is a wall-less city on flat ground with 20% culture. Attack it from 1W of Cologne to avoid the river penalty. OR: we could also make peace after taking Hamburg for Metal Casting which would get us nice forges. Our workers could then road the forest tile south of Berlin (we still want to land 1W of Cologne for the attack. Never attack over river, unless you would lose too many turns on moving your units around.)

Tip: there is extra maintenance for units standing around outside of your cultural borders. It is inevitable to lose money because of our attacking stacks but the units sitting idle near Berlin make no sense. Either take Cologne with them or move them inside Berlin.

Our macro plans for the following turns:

We want more cities, so therefore…

…we want to take another AI. Pacal has nice resources but he's also the better trading partner (albeit not by much). He can bribe in Ragnar though, so taking Ragnar might be the safer route. Our workers should have roaded up Birka by now.

…we also want to settle tons of cities ourselves (with the Noble AI you can't really wait on them doing it for you)

To accomplish all this we want…
Settlers, obviously. We want to settle food resources and any happy resource we don't yet have. (Like the silver and fur N of Bismarck.) If we have to venture out into barbarian lands don't forget to send some unit there (an axe should do) to secure the area.

We want to spread Confu to our cities. Remember, we are in Organized Religion now, that means you would build a missionary in an established city for 40 :hammers: which would then not only generate culture in another city but also grant +1 happy and act as a mini-forge. This is why they are so much better than monuments for 30 :hammers:. Stop building them, please. Delete the ones you have queued as well. You don't need them.

About monuments in general:
It's a common mistake of less experienced players to insist on building monuments everywhere. The fact is, unless you decide for culture early you don't want to build them at all unless absolutely necessary. If you're not creative, you rather have to make sure you settle a city so that it gets its important resources in the first ring, and only build a monument if this is not possible for some reason (Umma is such an example in your game as are the early cities with ocean fish). And as soon as you have other means to pop a city (build a library, run an artist, spread a religion, build culture etc), you should never again think about building monuments at all. Ever.

Research:
Cities that have a library should run two scientists at all times unless they've been whipped and have to regrow. (Umma is an exception for now, because it has to build the Palace and still work as many cottages as it can.) This will give us quite a nice tech pace despite of losing gold on 0% research.

Nodwengu should whip that workboat and whip a library later too.
Continue building wealth in some cities to keep going.

All cities will need…
Confucianism (if possible, do not build any buildings until the city gets the religion)
Granaries
Ikhandas
Forges if we make peace for MC (unless the city is settled for a resource only and doesn't have too much food or hammers)

Good food cities will need
Libraries
Cities far away (Bismarck's and Kublai's cities) will also need a courthouse.

Cities that don't have Confu yet should build wealth or a settler if they're better whipping cities, as long as they don't get the religion.

Umma will have to build the Palace. Are you familiar with whipping something into a wonder, Joe? Also, is consolidating a realm while warring unknown territory for you? Shall we continue playing turn by turn?

After getting Confu Ondini should begin with the Great Lighhouse (while using its food and hammer tiles and running the two scientists). We may lose out on it but it would be nice to have with the amount of coastal cities you already have and will settle in the near future. Plus there are some small islands in the South. We should check them out for food.

As for technologies let's get Civil Service and let's make sure we move the Palace to Umma until then. After that we should get Aesthetics and Literature. The Great Library is an easy building with Marble and it will help us a lot in Representation.

Joe, this is quite a lot to manage, I realize. I don't want to deprive you of playing and making your own decisions, but I'll gladly give you a turn-by-turn micro if you want.
 
I know that Joe here wants a space victory, but is he up to micromanaging 20+ cities?

some people don't want to do spend 20 mins a turn.

anyways it's really up to him to figure out how he really wants to win.

This is too much of an overkill for a Noble game don't you think?
 
I know that Joe here wants a space victory, but is he up to micromanaging 20+ cities?

some people don't want to do spend 20 mins a turn.

anyways it's really up to him to figure out how he really wants to win.

This is too much of an overkill for a Noble game don't you think?
No, since he wants an early space victory.
 
The war: Our stack is an extreme overkill for Hamburg, that city should fall nicely next turn. Move them towards Colgone but not wait for our them to get there, take Cologne with the units you have in the area (four swords, 1 catapult, 1 elephant). He only has two archers in Cologne which is a wall-less city on flat ground with 20% culture. Attack it from 1W of Cologne to avoid the river penalty. OR: we could also make peace after taking Hamburg for Metal Casting which would get us nice forges. Our workers could then road the forest tile south of Berlin (we still want to land 1W of Cologne for the attack. Never attack over river, unless you would lose too many turns on moving your units around.)

Tip: there is extra maintenance for units standing around outside of your cultural borders. It is inevitable to lose money because of our attacking stacks but the units sitting idle near Berlin make no sense. Either take Cologne with them or move them inside Berlin.

Our macro plans for the following turns:

We want more cities, so therefore…

…we want to take another AI. Pacal has nice resources but he's also the better trading partner (albeit not by much). He can bribe in Ragnar though, so taking Ragnar might be the safer route. Our workers should have roaded up Birka by now.

…we also want to settle tons of cities ourselves (with the Noble AI you can't really wait on them doing it for you)

To accomplish all this we want…
Settlers, obviously. We want to settle food resources and any happy resource we don't yet have. (Like the silver and fur N of Bismarck.) If we have to venture out into barbarian lands don't forget to send some unit there (an axe should do) to secure the area.

We want to spread Confu to our cities. Remember, we are in Organized Religion now, that means you would build a missionary in an established city for 40 :hammers: which would then not only generate culture in another city but also grant +1 happy and act as a mini-forge. This is why they are so much better than monuments for 30 :hammers:. Stop building them, please. Delete the ones you have queued as well. You don't need them.

About monuments in general:
It's a common mistake of less experienced players to insist on building monuments everywhere. The fact is, unless you decide for culture early you don't want to build them at all unless absolutely necessary. If you're not creative, you rather have to make sure you settle a city so that it gets its important resources in the first ring, and only build a monument if this is not possible for some reason (Umma is such an example in your game as are the early cities with ocean fish). And as soon as you have other means to pop a city (build a library, run an artist, spread a religion, build culture etc), you should never again think about building monuments at all. Ever.

Research:
Cities that have a library should run two scientists at all times unless they've been whipped and have to regrow. (Umma is an exception for now, because it has to build the Palace and still work as many cottages as it can.) This will give us quite a nice tech pace despite of losing gold on 0% research.

Nodwengu should whip that workboat and whip a library later too.
Continue building wealth in some cities to keep going.

All cities will need…
Confucianism (if possible, do not build any buildings until the city gets the religion)
Granaries
Ikhandas
Forges if we make peace for MC (unless the city is settled for a resource only and doesn't have too much food or hammers)

Good food cities will need
Libraries
Cities far away (Bismarck's and Kublai's cities) will also need a courthouse.

Cities that don't have Confu yet should build wealth or a settler if they're better whipping cities, as long as they don't get the religion.

Umma will have to build the Palace. Are you familiar with whipping something into a wonder, Joe? Also, is consolidating a realm while warring unknown territory for you? Shall we continue playing turn by turn?

After getting Confu Ondini should begin with the Great Lighhouse (while using its food and hammer tiles and running the two scientists). We may lose out on it but it would be nice to have with the amount of coastal cities you already have and will settle in the near future. Plus there are some small islands in the South. We should check them out for food.

As for technologies let's get Civil Service and let's make sure we move the Palace to Umma until then. After that we should get Aesthetics and Literature. The Great Library is an easy building with Marble and it will help us a lot in Representation.

Joe, this is quite a lot to manage, I realize. I don't want to deprive you of playing and making your own decisions, but I'll gladly give you a turn-by-turn micro if you want.

I think you meant attack Cologne from 1E. Regardless, Bismarck is dead.

I'm not sure about whipping something into a wonder.

I followed instructions to the best of my abilities. I hope I got it right.
 

Attachments

Hehehe.. Nice, who wouldn't like to see Joe's Noble overkill? That's the whole point of this, Joe must understand that he can beat Noble anytime!
 
Yes, Joe, I meant my other East :)

I only had time to look at the save for a moment, will post a detailed plan when I get home from work, but...

Joe, running two scientists wherever you can is crucial. Obviously you cannot assign two scientists in a city without enough population etc. but if we can't keep our tech pace we won't get a fast space race.

Also, not making buildings in cities without Confucianism in OR is crucial too. No expensive libraries in Bismarck's cities yet, they should build wealth. That loses us OR hammers and we have enough cities that could generate the missionaries. You should rush some in any case. In OR you can build missionaries in all Cofu cities, you don't need monasteries. Btw we don't need a Buddhist monastery in Hamburg.

Whipping into a wonder: do you remember when we talked about whipping overflow? When you try to build a wonder in a poor hammer city this is exactly what you should be aiming for. Whipping the wonder itself is not optimal, that would lose us 10 :hammers: / pop or even more with bonuses. This is why you try to set up a two- or three-pop whip so that it would generate maximal hammer overflow into the wonder you're building.

I can see you moved out some units to clear the settler's way -- no swords please, they are useless against the barb axes that are outside! They are meant to take AI cities. Send an axeman instead. Also, whenever you send a settler out you also want to send at least one worker and a Confu missionary with it.

Bismarck's ivory should be improved. Asap.

I will check the game in detail as soon as I'm home from work. I think we should go turn-by-turn for a little bit now, until you get the hang of things, if you're OK with it.
 
Joe? Do you want me to post a plan for this turn or do you want to try playing it yourself? It's best if we don't rush ahead too much in any case.
 
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