New Game Speeds

[JosEPh_II]

Ok, I got another domination victory, SVN 9716 from beginning to end, Roosevelt/USA, snail speed, large map, deity+nightmare difficulty.

I have zipped all my save games with 7-zip, and uploaded it here for modders who want to study game balance and AI behaviour:

724MB! Wow how many saves are in this thing?

A New game with same conditions as this one will play out differently now. This 9716 version is now 73 versions old.

 

[Noriad2]

724MB! Wow how many saves are in this thing?

A New game with same conditions as this one will play out differently now. This 9716 version is now 73 versions old.

In the later parts of the game, when there is more and more boring micromanagement, I tend to listen to lectures and podcasts while playing. As the game occasionally crashes when I alt-tab in and out, I save often.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

While I understand this from a RL modeling pov, this is a strategy game. And as a result, the player should have strategic control over his destiny with nearly all things. Random events that can cripple are not that great for game design.

Except most of the diseases the way I wanted them are not exactly random. Smallpox, for example, is tied to one of the Animal Domestication techs. The first to get it gets the first outbreak. Making it very important to get this tech as soon as possible. If you don't get it first and are on a different continent to the one that does then it wont affect you until the Renaissance, ie when trade opens up with those who have had it. Typhus (I think it is) is siege warfare related. It only comes into play when a siege takes "to long".

Current SVN? Or a few versions behind? Last 4 versions have dampened Inflation's impact.

I am in the Ancient era and have done no hurrying, inflation should not be an issue an all. I am using last weekends SVN as I can't find my license for my synchronization software.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Except most of the diseases the way I wanted them are not exactly random. Smallpox, for example, is tied to one of the Animal Domestication techs. The first to get it gets the first outbreak. Making it very important to get this tech as soon as possible. If you don't get it first and are on a different continent to the one that does then it wont affect you until the Renaissance, ie when trade opens up with those who have had it. Typhus (I think it is) is siege warfare related. It only comes into play when a siege takes "to long".

You can always craft the disease to be functionally impossible to avoid. There are ways to play with the math to achieve these objectives. We do need to still develop land blockades so as to reflect the most harmful aspect of siege warfare, but distance strikes from siege weapons can be made to inflict disease now.

What we need is to really have time with complete focus on developing the diseases according to all objectives. I've designed the system to enable the dynamics you're looking for while also giving the player some at least limited control over their ability to react and protect against outbreaks. But we CAN also design them to be impossible to avoid completely. I know trying to explain the complexity of the system, particularly as deep as it is now, is fighting a huge battle against limited attention spans. I'd probably give up trying to understand any explanation at some point into it, given the depth of the subject. And I also know there's STILL some work to be done to open up the modelling needs of some diseases. But at least the groundwork is there to be able to.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I cut back the diffusion of disease to help the AI when they were imploding during the time frame of when SO posted his save showing the AI in Serious Trouble with his Modern Era savegame. The diffusion of the disease property can be upped a % point or 2 if need be. But I would not put it back to full % like it was.

On the other hand the individual Diseases could have their increased somewhat. But how many healers do you really want the AI and player to have to field to combat the Disease property? We have already seen the pendulum swing to far in that regard and are not pulling it back the other direction. Players that gripe about not enough and are forgetting the AI has to be able to deal with it too. And many of those complaining are also Deity and Deity NM users as well. Can not have every aspect of the mod focused for those players only to the point that the avg joe can't play the game or the AI can't respond well.

 

[Lacero]

Prince, snail I think, build 9788

417 / 5030 for sedentary lifestyle.


I have a few techs left in prehistoric, mostly domesticating animals.

 

[IdioticUlt1mara]

@JosEPh_II I understand that me and a few other Diety/Diety NM players are complaining about Disease not being harsh enough. How about just adding a -1 Gold modifier to them? Or something similar to showcase that disease decreases worker output?

Also @Noriad2 I tend to do something like that as well. I am catching up really quickly with Critical Role by doing this throughout the game

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II I understand that me and a few other Diety/Diety NM players are complaining about Disease not being harsh enough. How about just adding a -1 Gold modifier to them? Or something similar to showcase that disease decreases worker output?

Also @Noriad2 I tend to do something like that as well. I am catching up really quickly with Critical Role by doing this throughout the game

It's under consideration along with some other tweaks.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@JosEPh_II I understand that me and a few other Diety/Diety NM players are complaining about Disease not being harsh enough. How about just adding a -1 Gold modifier to them? Or something similar to showcase that disease decreases worker output?

I always felt that should be modeled with reductions in production and commerce rather than gold. Particularly production. THAT would motivate a player to react to disease.

I also think the unhealth is dramatically undervalued on diseases - it takes a lot of unhealth in C2C to counter all the sources of health and it takes a lot of unhealth past the health amount to make an impact on growth at all so it's a very forgiving penalty, unlike happiness. It's certainly a flaw to see happiness and health as being anywhere near equivalent to one another. Excess unhappiness is MUCH more punishing to the player and can collapse the city. Unhealth depends a lot on how much food excess you have and we have a LOT of food excess usually in C2C.

Just voicing thoughts at the moment.

 

[IdioticUlt1mara]

Yh I feel unhealth is very much a non-factor, for the most part, in Civ IV

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yh I feel unhealth is very much a non-factor, for the most part, in Civ IV

Unless it gets so severe that it's draining food and costing population that is. THAT is how severe it must be to start becoming a factor. Otherwise it's a psychological head twist more than anything simply because it's ugly to see the city graphic when unhealth is higher than health. It's not hindering much at that point and in fact just shows a little opportunity because at that point each health is an extra food bonus.

 

[tmv]

Only in the beginning it is a big problem - until you can finally accumulate . If your civ reaches that point first you are pretty much in the lead, no matter the power ratio (mostly because of the Tribal Guardian).

 

[BUDDHAALIEN]

The best game speed is enternity in v36. In v37 enternity speed is too fast. Please slow it down like it was in v36 before.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The best game speed is enternity in v36. In v37 enternity speed is too fast. Please slow it down like it was in v36 before.

Not gonna happen, sorry.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I always felt that should be modeled with reductions in production and commerce rather than gold. Particularly production. THAT would motivate a player to react to disease.

I also think the unhealth is dramatically undervalued on diseases - it takes a lot of unhealth in C2C to counter all the sources of health and it takes a lot of unhealth past the health amount to make an impact on growth at all so it's a very forgiving penalty, unlike happiness. It's certainly a flaw to see happiness and health as being anywhere near equivalent to one another. Excess unhappiness is MUCH more punishing to the player and can collapse the city. Unhealth depends a lot on how much food excess you have and we have a LOT of food excess usually in C2C.

Just voicing thoughts at the moment.

But also remember the outcry we had when and lower food production was in. This is a 2 way sword. Tighten it up and the lower level players come out of the wood work. Reduce it to the levels it is now and the Deity start dissing. Where is the happy medium?

I can do a lot of adjusting with what is already in place. But it take testing to see if the AI can handle it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

But also remember the outcry we had when and lower food production was in. This is a 2 way sword. Tighten it up and the lower level players come out of the wood work. Reduce it to the levels it is now and the Deity start dissing. Where is the happy medium?

I can do a lot of adjusting with what is already in place. But it take testing to see if the AI can handle it.

I am happy to leave you to work on the main core disease settings. When I design the diseases for outbreaks and afflictions, I mean to be extremely punishing with unhealth, hopefully to the point that it causes real food and population loss and demands a response (or just letting it run its course is also a valid response to a disease.) I don't necessarily think you'd want to have the same kind of approach with what we have in the core because there, diseases just stack, they don't all come and go independently as they will in O&A.

Of course, as far as the property goes, AI management will be very similar to the same as crime because it IS the same coding - and we have some strange stuff going on there atm. This is why I've waited to invite us to really address disease hardcore because although its true its a meek factor right now, I wanted to get the AI working right at addressing it before making it yet more challenging.

When we discuss how individual diseases are designed in O&A one at a time, we should also consider how they should be handled in the core. Some increase in challenge to disease is in order... but you're right not tooooo much because of how they MUST overlap.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am now in the early Medieval period in my current game, snail, huge map. Science was at 60% since I got to Classical era.

In the Classical era the number of turns to build a building that was enabled by a new tech started to take longer than it takes to research the next tech. It is now almost 2x the number of turns to build a new building as research a new tech. This means that my cities are falling farther and further behind. This figure is for cities which have all the available production buildings in them. New cities have no hope of catching up.

I think it is the research that is coming too fast.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I am now in the early Medieval period in my current game, snail, huge map. Science was at 60% since I got to Classical era.

In the Classical era the number of turns to build a building that was enabled by a new tech started to take longer than it takes to research the next tech. It is now almost 2x the number of turns to build a new building as research a new tech. This means that my cities are falling farther and further behind. This figure is for cities which have all the available production buildings in them. New cities have no hope of catching up.

I think it is the research that is coming too fast.

Current SVN?

Build time is a problem for every GS especially since the Option No Tech Handicap for humans was introduced. And the code adjustments for Inflation and the Re-Costing Projects. I noted it and have experienced it in 3 Test games so far on Normal, Epic, and an older Normal game that has reached the Industrial era. I do not have the problem of Research coming too fast but rather the opposite coming too slow. Still the Re-Costing of each building increases in each Era and so the units and buildings take longer to build. As I have not made any adjustments to iTrainPercent and iConstructPercent until just recently in SVN 9833. For Snail the iTrainpercent and iConstructPercent went from 450 to 500 each respectively. And for Snail's 5035 turns that is proper scaling. (well was the proper before all this other Projects and coding took place)

The last GS adjustment did put Snail, Eon, and Eternity back to previous levels of iResearch, before the 10% increase to these GS Research rates made back in SVN 9748.

I have started a 4th game on Epic and research is now faster.

I plan on starting a marathon and Snail game soon as well.

Game speed training, construction and research has been "off" ever since the re-Costing Projects (plural) were completed. Add in to that was the recent hubbub over inflation in the longer GS.

So yes there are imbalances showing up.

And Thank you for report this here. I need this info.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think I am two days behind on the SVN.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Diseases malus have been added to as well. Letting disease climb over 500 will put you into a serious hurt if left unchecked.