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New Game Speeds

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by JosEPh_II, Jun 23, 2016.

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  1. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Especially in beginning of game, where every +1 happines/health from anything and +1% yield modifier counts and helps :)
    Basically this made early eras more challenging and actually makes disease management relevant.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  2. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    As was the intention years ago. But conflicting design philosophy and fear of treading on other Modder's work slowed the process.

    It's only been in the last 2+ years that any semblance of game play balance has been even started in the Mod. Prior it was all about getting all the main concepts and ideas incorporated into the Mod at a break neck speed (still going on somewhat even now). Then the coding and bug squashing modders, like koshling, where to keep the mod from imploding in upon it's self. This last part is what drove koshling away for actively modding C2C. He wanted more discipline from the "builders of mod components", but never got it. But without his own Modding contributions some of the Mods best features like Graphic Display and View ports, that keep low end comp users still able to play would've never been a reality. And now Only T-brd's extreme Zeal for his own design ideals keeps this mod afloat in that regard.
     
  3. Septimius

    Septimius Warlord

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    A very minor question/request...

    On the slowest speeds, is it possible to change the numbering of the turns?

    I'm at turn 1815 f.ex. - which is 285BC, next turn will be 280BC, those five year jumps include a lot of wonderful real world history I'm always sad to see speed by like that. While at the other end of the game you get two or more turns per year.

    What I'd really like to see is a greater slowing down of time passing from turn to turn once you enter the historical period (like around the building of the Pyramids in 4-3000BC) and then see it become one turn per year around the time of the Bronze Age (1400BC or so) until the end of the Medieval period (let's say around the 1400s AD) where it slows down further.

    Obviously I haven't taken anything into consideration where tech advances etc. are concerned, so I was more interested in hearing how you might do it yourself.
     
  4. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    All based on number of years each Era spans and number of Technologies discovered for each era. No real way to do what you want.

    History buff's are out of luck in this regard, sorry.
     
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  5. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Emperor

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    And @JosEPh_II how it is currently is excellent. In emperor difficulty and on eternity speed I'm going into the information age at around 1997 AD. And this is taking into account long spans of time where I was slowing research down to 20% because of some wars and societal collapses.
     
  6. Septimius

    Septimius Warlord

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    Just a reaction to this - I'm not asking for tech precision according to historic time, but 1 turn = 1 year. I understand it isn't possible as is, but was interested in hearing how one could do it as a modmod perhaps.
     
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  7. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Emperor

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    It is possible. The most work would be the re-balancing of tech costs, tech would have to be very expensive in those long spans of time where there was little technological development and then make them cheaper during "golden ages" where advancement happened a lot quicker, like in the classical period, renaissance and especially in the industrial age and beyond.
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I'd welcome someone to make a modmod with a gamespeed of 1 turn = 1 year that goes the whole way through the game this way. Then let us know how that goes.
     
  9. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Why Eons game speed use Day increment, as Eternity doesn't use it?
    Spoiler :

    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>20004</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>90</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>840</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>630</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>72</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>645</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>72</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>435</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>24</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>350</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>12</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>400</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>6</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>400</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iDayIncrement>45</iDayIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>640</iTurnsPerIncrement>

    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iDayIncrement>45</iDayIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>480</iTurnsPerIncrement>

    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>3</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>600</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>30</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>520</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>40</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>450</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>64</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>375</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>90</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>400</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iDayIncrement>30</iDayIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>100</iTurnsPerIncrement>


    Edit: Marathon uses it too.
    Spoiler :

    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>45000</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>40</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>1704</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>310</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>150</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>320</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>144</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>215</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>48</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>175</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>24</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>200</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>12</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>200</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>3</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>360</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iDayIncrement>75</iDayIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>288</iTurnsPerIncrement>

    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iDayIncrement>200</iDayIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>270</iTurnsPerIncrement>

    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>60</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>260</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>84</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>215</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>120</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>200</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>180</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>200</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    <GameTurnInfo>
    <iMonthIncrement>12</iMonthIncrement>
    <iTurnsPerIncrement>100</iTurnsPerIncrement>
    </GameTurnInfo>
    </GameTurnInfos>


    Edit: After making interactable calendar from data from game speed file it appears dates are set as precise as possible.
    Also that thing is delicate - that is not possible to make some dates, where turn timing is changed be more round without making tons of mess.
    There is a lot of stuff in this XLS - I was categorizing various things to create guide for space map making :p

    Spoiler It seems like turn changes are meant to occur as close as possible to following dates :

    -200000 - Prehistoric
    -50000 - Prehistoric (Tribalism tech?)
    -6000 - Ancient
    -2000 - Classical
    600 - Medieval
    1300 - Renaissance
    1700 - Industrial
    1900 - Modern
    1990 - Information
    2050 - Nanotech
    2200 - Transhuman (Stellaris game and FutureTimeline website disagree here and for them Galactic starts around here)
    3500 - Galactic - So we won't start colonizing nearby stars in 1500 years? Even 500 years is pretty long.
    5000 - Cosmic
    7000 - Transcendental
    10000 - Endgame
    10100 - At this point turn definitions run out and date rollbacks to -200000 every time you load game.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
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  10. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Yes those are the Date ranges T-brd and I settled on.

    And I'm happy you discovered how meticulous I had to be.

    And DayIncrement was used more. But the ones that actually matched iMonth I converted back to months. Easier calculations, and 1.5 month for iMonth does not work. Game would "barf" when I tried it. It wants whole integers here, so iDay = 45 in this case.

    So only 1 GS needed it at the time. And If we ever eliminate Eon then it won't be needed at all. Or I could shorten or lengthen Eon to accommodate the iMonth. Maybe?

    I suppose I could've used iDay for the this one and made it go further out. May have too for the 2 fastest GS if I can't get the research rates to work out better. Especially for those players that have activated the No tech Handicap for human Option. As I can not balance the research rate to match that Option with out totally destroying a "core" C2C game.

    The Old BtS Future Era would let you play for awhile longer than you can now in C2C. And I have not found the answer to it either. Probably just did not dig deep enough into Vanilla Civ IV or BtS GS to find out how it was done.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  11. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Marathon uses iDay too (200 days and 75 days)
    Also last Eon turn definition has iDay of 30 days - shouldn't be it 1 month?

    What do following dates represent:
    -50000 - Prehistoric - would be this point where you research Tribalism?
    -6000 - Ancient - Sedimentary Lifestyle.
    -2000 - Ancient - What tech could be here?
    2050 - Nanotech
    2200 - Galactic Lifestyle could be researched here, as still some years would pass before you send first interstellar colony spaceship.
    3500 - Galactic - So we won't start colonizing nearby stars in 1500 years? Even 500 years is pretty long.

    @pepper2000 how would you set date turn times here after 2020 year?
    Asking out of curiosity
    2050/2150/2300/4000/7000/10000 for Nanotech/Transhuman/Galactic/Comsic/Transcedental/Future eras?
    There is time travel, faster than light travel and other spacetime hackery starting in middle of Galactic era, when you are colonizing Orion Arm.
    There is XML file, where you can freely adjust calendar dates.
    Not sure how ingame month is defined: 28 days (4 weeks) or 30 days.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  12. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    It does not matter for Eons last definition now does it.
    As for Marathon, do you like to just nitpick? Yes it has 2 definition that used iDay. Do I have to have photographic memory to please you too?

    Why is it bothering you? And 2000 is date target to start classical. 50,000BC Was the original Start date. But when it was voted on to change to 200,000BC I had to split the range for Preh Era into 2 parts.

    As for you other comments they are All Subjective. I said T-brd and I agreed to use those dates. And pepper was asked about the date ranges for the late game additions as well. There was a whole freaking thread on it Raxo!

    Really? It's right in front of you! 30 days.

    Just stop trying to change things Mr. Manipulator! Gee Whiz!:rolleyes::nono::cringe:
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  13. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Play with the iTurnIncrements. But I think you will find it won't be as feasible as some think. 1 year per turn is a fantasy idea, imhpo. And how long of a game would you really play to even get close to that mark? Way longer than even the Old Eternity of 14,000 turns. In fact I don't think Toffer's modmod, he "was" working on, with having 20,000 turns for Eternity could achieve what you are wishing for.

    Perhaps if you made your Start date 4000BC and your end date 3000 AD you might be able to do it. the 1000 techs we have might be able to be spread to meet this overall range of time. Maybe.
     
  14. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    It was just my observation.


    Was more curious than anything, also where is this thread?
    Or it was in this one on what these dates represented?
    Also I really missed classical era :crazyeye:

    Wasn't sure, as there somewhere in this file (or global defines xml) was definition of one month being 4 weeks that is 28 days :p
    I guess this was some remnant
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  15. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Who really knows. In the GS files it's set at 30. But there could be a Defines file some place that has it as 28. Or in the .dll, which I can't decipher.

    You do realize that your curiosity (Mr. Cat ( need Felix the Cat smilie here)) at times is killing this :old:. I sometimes feel like you are doing this, :deadhorse: from your threads and posts. Just to get me to :badcomp: and get [pissed]. Is that your goal in life here at C2C? :dunno:. (I'm trying real hard to make this light and a joke but sometimes it's not that easy with my reactions to you and how your posts make me feel.):help::please:
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  16. SirJohnEh

    SirJohnEh Chieftain

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    Game speed results over the first 4 eras on V38+ code base. First 2 eras ran at SVN 9919 (V38.1), last 2 at SVN 9924. There have been significant SVN changes to technology costs and game speed parameters since then, so these results are not a reliable baseline.

    Key game set-up options: (full list provided in attachments)
    - Monarch difficulty, Marathon speed, 4 AI opponents, leader Elizabeth of England but set-up for no leader traits (leader choice still defines base available cultures), Small Temperate Earth-like "C2C_World" map, Medium Sea levels, Old World Start and Plenty of Rivers
    - No Tech Handicaps for Humans set “On”; Win For Losing set “On” and No Tech Diffusion set “Off”
    - No Tech Trading and No Tech Brokering both set to “On”
    - Beeline Sting set “Off”
    - Upscaled Building and Unit Costs set “On” (change from my previous tests, difficult to tell the impact)

    My Key Observations:
    (1) My first 2 Era completion turn counts and calendar dates are in the range I expected, but the next 2 seem a bit fast in terms of calendar date (at least IMHO, experts may differ). I expect they will change in future testing due to recent SVN fixes and corrections (in particular, AI modifications to unit selection - I focused too much on building military units instead of science due to the apparent AI lead in military strength, not realizing it was based on large numbers of weak and inappropriate units (for example, in the Medieval era 1 AI city had 160 defenders, of which 133 were outriggers and 20 were missionaries).
    (2) Generally able to run at 100% science and a significant per-turn gold surplus (even with the military overbuilding described above).
    (3) I run on old i5-2410M hardware (2 cores, 4 threads), with C2C generally at about 30% CPU ("turbo" mode as a single-threaded 32-bit application). This was the first time I have noticed Windows Task Manager showing 80% to 90% CPU usage for C2C for a period of 10 to 15 seconds during between-my-turns AI processing (which currently runs 30 to 45 seconds on my hardware, which I think is faster than before). I am guessing this is a result of recent SVN performance enhancements to increase multi-threading - if so, it is VERY VERY impressive, and HUGE kudos to the modders!

    Measurements:
    (1) Logged the sequence, turn count and beaker cost for each technology learned. I intended to measure the impact on game speed of 2 game styles ("slow path, learn all techs in their own era" versus "fast path, learn minimum number of techs in each era"), plus the impact of Beeline Stings in "fast path". Stopped without doing "fast path" due to obsolete code base.
    (2) Recorded turn counts and dates for the "end" of each era (aligning with Tech Tree and TechInfo.xml "era number" usage), versus my previous reporting of completion of each "gateway" Tech (which are technically the first tech in the following era, usually 3 to 5 turns later).

    Results:
    (1) Completed Prehistoric Era at turn 357 in 5893 BC (and completed Sedentary Lifestyle 3 turns later), 3 to 6 techs behind every AI. Slightly behind the 2 leading AIs on score; about 25% ahead on military strength. Learned 97 techs (0 of them free), out of 99 (95 mandatory for fast path), at average 3.7 turns and 185 beakers per tech.

    (2) Completed Ancient Era at turn 687 in 1776 BC (and completed Classical Lifestyle 4 turns later), 35 to 40 techs behind the 3 leading AIs. Third place on scoreboard (about 10% behind the leading AI); second on military strength (about 45% behind). Surprisingly (at least to me), despite my huge technology lag I had the top 3 cities on the "Top 5" screen, and the #1 city for technology beakers. Learned 80 techs (5 of them free), out of 91 (80 mandatory for fast path), at average 4.2 turns and 1650 beakers per tech.

    (3) Completed Classical Era at turn 835 in 0 AD (and completed Medieval Lifestyle 4 turns later), 12 to 26 techs behind the 3 leading AIs. Third place on scoreboard (about 25% behind the leading AI); third on military strength (about 50% behind). Still had the top 3 cities on the "Top 5" screen, and improved to having 3 of the top 5 cities in global ranking for science beakers. Learned 51 techs (3 of them free), out of 60 (51 mandatory for fast path), at average 2.9 turns and 5600 beakers per tech.

    (4) Completed Medieval Era at turn 1007 in 1088 AD (and completed Renaissance Lifestyle on the same turn number, using a Great Person for a free tech), 9 to 27 techs behind the 3 leading AIs. Second place on scoreboard (about 15% behind the leading AI); fourth on military strength (up to 65% behind). Now have the top 5 cities on the "Top 5" screen, and staying about the same at 3 of the top 7 cities in global ranking for science beakers. Learned 51 techs (4 of them free), out of 54 (46 mandatory for fast path), at average 3.4 turns and 13,500 beakers per tech.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Septimius

    Septimius Warlord

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    Nice job! Maybe this'll help make some more sense of the system. It certainly seems like beelining is the only way to go.


    I've given up on even trying to understand the logic after a map size malus has been introduced. Apparently, the longer the game with a bigger map, the more you have to pay for tech.
     
  18. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    ugh... hopefully this is fixed now.
     
  19. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    It's always been that way, only lately the amount has been reduced dramatically how much map size has an influence.
     
  20. Septimius

    Septimius Warlord

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    I'm seeing the opposite, my tech cost has gone up dramatically.
     
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