New Project: Comprehensive List of World Civilizations

[Tee Kay]

The Kingdom of Lan Xang was a part of the Laotian civilization founded by the Lao.
Sukhothai,Ayutthaya and Chiang Mai were part of the Thai civilization founded by the Thai

Lao/Thai is a modern distinction, mate.

Ethnic groups≠Civilizations

But Lao/Thai are ethnic groups, not civilizations.

As the name of a civilization, both suck.

I tend to agree, as per my easier post about categorising civilisations.

 

[Civciv5]

But Lao/Thai are ethnic groups, not civilizations.

Ethnic groups CAN be civilizations,but they do not have to be...
Both the Thai and the Lao are civilizations,they had cities,had nations/empires and build monuments...

Lao/Thai is a modern distinction, mate.

No it isn't.
The Thai and Lao both thought of themselves as a faction of the "Tai"but the Lao did not think they are Thai and the Thai did not think they are Lao.

 

[Masada]

There wasn't a recognizable Thai ethnicity until at least Mongkut's reign, and it wasn't adopted by the majority of modern Thais until into the 40s or even 50s. The Lao identity is even more ephemeral and really only came into its own in the 40s and 50s. Having said that, Tai elites the region over had a similar culture, it was only after the colonial period 'fixed' borders and broke up patronage relationships that the two began to divergence. While I acknowledge that there was a difference between the court cultures, those were no more pronounced than the differences between regional elites inside what-is-now Thailand. Furthermore, there was arguably no cultural differences at all between the elites of the Northeast and Laos at all. The former of whom have become quite good Thais.

EDIT: I'm not denying that the Lao are now distinct, but that projecting that a modern distinction back into the past isn't good history.

 

[Tee Kay]

Ethnic groups CAN be civilizations,but they do not have to be...
Both the Thai and the Lao are civilizations,they had cities,had nations/empires and build monuments...

But are they distinct and separate civilisations?

No it isn't.
The Thai and Lao both thought of themselves as a faction of the "Tai"but the Lao did not think they are Thai and the Thai did not think they are Lao.

This is true in modern times. Not so in the past. The Lanna Kingdom, for instance, is only "Thai" in the sense that most of the territory it once covered is now ruled by the Kingdom of Thailand and its descendents are Thai citizens and consider themselves Thai. Lanna had a different culture and language and writing system to Ayutthaya in the south, or to put it in another way, as different from Ayutthaya as Lanxang. The region was only integrated politically into the modern Thai state in the late 19th century, and culturally even later; prior, the relationship between Bangkok and Chiang Mai was a tributary one, much like the relationship between Bangkok and other cities like Phitsanulok, Nakon Sithammarat, Korat, or Vientiane and Luang Prabang, for that matter.

Edit: also what Masady said.

EDIT: I'm not denying that the Lao are now distinct, but that projecting that a modern distinction back into the past isn't good history.

This, despite what the Thai and Lao Ministries of Education would have you to believe.

 

[Civciv5]

But are they distinct and separate civilisations?

Look,either you change the Thai to Tai civilization,which includes all kingdoms that existed in Laos and Thailand or you add Laos as a seperate civilization...

Tai civilization (AD 700) - Southeast Asian civilization in Thailand and Laos
or
The Thai/Siamese (AD 700) - Tai civilization in Thailand
The Lao (AD 1300) - Tai civilization in Laos
I still think they are seperate civilizations,but everybody can have their own opinion

 

[Absolution]

I know that. That's why I've been using Tai, in preference to Thai. Except when I suggested that the Lao could well have been Thai, much like the Isan are, had France not got involved.

I also think the use of Thai and Siamese is ********, as the former refers to the modern Thai nation-state and the latter to a stupid European naming convention.

Tai is too big for that list.
It is like Turkic or Germanic.
A massive ethnic group which includes many different peoples and even civilizations.

 

[Civciv5]

Its a massive ethnic group which includes many different peoples and even civilizations.

Well I agree with this,that's a good reason to seperate the Thai and Laotian civilizations.

 

[Absolution]

I don't know much about Lao, but Lanna and Thai can be two divided Tai civilizations.

BTW didn't the Lao people of Lan Xang have their own language (not thai)?

And taillesskangaru, are you saying that Lan Xang was just a regular Thai state? Like Sukhothai or Ayutthaya?

 

[Civciv5]

I don't know much about Lao, but didn't they have their own language back then?

Yes,they spoke Lao and the Laotians still speak Lao today.

 

[Tee Kay]

And taillesskangaru, are you saying that Lan Xang was just a regular Thai state? Like Sukhothai or Ayutthaya?

I'm saying that, as far as the culture of the relevant periods was concerned, Lanxang was about as different from Ayutthaya as Sukhothai or Lanna were; that the modern categorisation of Ayutthaya, Sukhothai and Lanna as "Thai" kingdoms and Lanxang as a "Lao" kingdom, as if they can be placed into two distinct group, is based on modern perception and has little, if at all, basis in history. As Masada pointed out, there were differences in culture between Ayutthaya and Lanxang, but also between Ayutthaya and Sukhothai, and Ayutthaya and Lanna, and in fact the court cultures of all these kingdoms were more similar than most supposed (think Europe and their royal courts). Back then, there were no Thai nor Lao national consciousness; there were loyalty to different lords or monarchs, and certainly there were some consciousness of identities based on region or language or customs, but the Thai and Lao nations as existed today did not exist then; in fact did not exist until after the borders of modern Thailand and Laos were set in the early 20th century; therefore, attaching a Thai or Lao label on these historical kingdoms is bad practice. Lanxang ruled large areas of what is today Laos and Thailand; Lanxang culture contributed to the development of the culture of both modern nations.

Yes,they spoke Lao and the Laotians still speak Lao today.

So did/do the Isan Thais across the Mekong. Language boundaries aren't solid and in any case, the Lao language like the Thai language has so many different dialects that some of them may be called a separate language. What are commonly known as the Lao and Thai languages are in fact the Vientiane and Bangkok dialects respectively.

 

[Absolution]

When you say Thais, you refer to Central Thais or to the bigger Thai group?
I'm not sure, but I think that in the modern times the Central Thais are taking over most of the Thai groups, and it wasn't that way in the past.

There is a confusion here.
Southwestern Tai languages are sometimes called Thai languages.
But it is not the same thing as Thai language. Thai language is the one who is spoken among the central thais (those of sukhuthai and ayutthuta).

 

[Tee Kay]

But Lanna are different from Lao and Thais.

Precisely my point...

Northern Thai is not a subgroup of Thai, but a parallel one.

... but here's where you misunderstood me. I don't claim that Lanna is "Thai"; at least, not while Lanna was in existence, considering that when Lanna existed a modern Thai national identity did not exist. However, and this is an important distinction, Lanna culture contributed to the development of modern Northern Thai culture, which in turn is a subgroup of the modern Thai culture. I think I'm justified in saying this as Northern Thais do identify themselves as "Thai", albeit with a regional qualifier, even if their ancestors did not. Lanna is as much a part of Thai history; that is to say, the history of all the cultures that contributed to the making of modern Thailand, as Ayutthaya or Sukhothai or, indeed, Lanxang.

 

[Absolution]

I read about it and edited my post before I saw you posted a comment.
Forget about what I wrote before.

-------------

So lets settle it.
Among the Tai peoples, we can list two civilizations: Lanna and Thai.


But still, isn't the case of Lao and Thai history similiar to Akkadians and Babylonians?

 

[Civciv5]

Well...Laotian culture is not generally understood to be a part of Thai culture or the other way around,but they have some features that are the same.
But Ayutthaya,Sukhothai,Lanna,Lavo,Chiang Mai are generally accepted to be a part of Thai history and culture.
Another example:
The Maurya,Gupta,Pala,Chalukya and Chola Empires are generally accepted to be a part of Indian history and culture...
The Thai and Lao have both:architectural styles,cuisines,great buildings,large cities,organized society,accomplishments,militaries and much more...
But are they seperate civilization?
That is still under discussion...
So we could do this:
Tai civilization (AD 700) - Southeast Asian civilization in Thailand and Laos
or this
The Thai/Siamese (AD 700) - Tai civilization in Thailand
The Lao (AD 1300) - Tai civilization in Laos

 

[Absolution]

Tai civilization is out of the question.
Thai and Lanna can be in.
About Lao I'm not sure.

You compared it to india, and I think India is one of the most important things to change in that list.
I posted about it in the 4th page here:

I think that the anciet empires of the Indian sub-continnent can't be called The Indian Civilization.
Today they are united under the defenition of India, but back then it was just a crazy idea.
It was like a Mesopotamian Civilization, or North African Civilization.
As far as I know, the united national defenition of Indian people became common during the British tule. (If not, then maybe in the Mughal/Maratha times, but I don't think so.)
Before that, India was mainly a geographical term.
You can clearly see the difference between several groups in the indian history.
The problem is how to name them. So this is my suggestion:
- Magadha, which mainly refers to the Mauryan Empire and the Gupta Empire....
- Kannada, which mainly refers to the Rashtrakuta Empire, the Chalukya Empire, the Vijayanagara Empire, kingdom of Mysore...
- Marathis, which mainly refers to the Maratha Empire.
- Tamil, and I see you have already put them in.
- There are much more smaller groups, but I assume you got the idea...

I think that the term Indian Civilization can only refer to the modern unified indian people.

 

[Civciv5]

Thai and Lanna can be in
About Lao I'm not sure

Lanna is viewed as a part of Thai culture,while Laos has its own culture and is not a part of any other culture.
Lanna is more similar to Thailand than Laos to Thailand
By the way,Laos has more accomplishments than Lanna and it was way larger

 

[Tee Kay]

Lanna is viewed as a part of Thai culture,while Laos has its own culture and is not a part of any other culture.
Lanna is more similar to Thailand than Laos to Thailand
By the way,Laos has more accomplishments than Lanna and it was way larger

Nothing I've said is getting through to you, is it.

 

[Absolution]

Lanna is viewed as a part of Thai culture,while Laos has its own culture and is not a part of any other culture.
Lanna is more similar to Thailand than Laos to Thailand
By the way,Laos has more accomplishments than Lanna and it was way larger

Well, Lanna was a short lived civilization.
Maybe one of the shortest ones.

Lannas later became part of the large Thai group, just like many other cultures in history.
They lost their indentity. A civilization is not eternal.

And does it have to do with accomplishemnts?
If you were trying to select the greatest civilizations in histroy it would matter, but here we just list every civilization.

 

[Civciv5]

Well, Lanna was a short lived civilization.

That's incorrect,they were a long-lived civilization that existed more than 400 years.
Altough it was occupied much of that time by Sukhothai,Burma,Ayutthaya and later annexed by Thailand.
Also,Laos was never occupied since it became independent,except when Bayinnaung annexed it briefly.
Laos still has its own identity and culture and the Laotians are proud of it.

And does it have to do with accomplishemnts?
If you were trying to select the greatest civilizations in histroy it would matter, but here we just list every civilization.

Then list Laos as a civilization,not listing it would be an insult to the word civilization because it is a civilization.

 

[Absolution]

I don't know about Laos.

But Lanna is a civilization.
Their modern situation has nothing to do with the Kingdom of Lanna.
And BTW, it was more than 400 years if you consider Ngoenyang and the Kingdom of Chiangmai to be Lanna states.