New Religion Founding Conditions

[Leoreth]

This thread relates to the new tech tree currently accessible in the hrtechs Git branch.

As many people have pointed out, the tech -> religion associations there do not really work out yet, with religions usually being founded earlier than they are "supposed to", and therefore also by the wrong civs. I think this is specifically the case for Hinduism, Confucianism, Zoroastrianism and Taoism right now, but others may be affected as well.

I didn't pay too much attention to this when assigning religions to techs, and mostly decided based on thematic associations. But part of the whole goal of the new tech tree was to make religion founding less complicated. Going from DoC 1.14, it seemed half the religions had their own special rule already anyway. I thought with the new techs, and more techs overall, it would be possible to move most religions to being founded by techs again. However, the interconnected nature of the tech tree makes this complicated.

We basically face three competing issues here:

• Civs need to be able to make it to the techs required to founding "their" religion in time
• Other civs need to be prevented from researching techs for "ahistorical" religions before they are founded
• Civs need to be able to complete their UHV without founding ahistorical religions. As long as both tech goals and religions rely on "first to discover", that's always bound to be a problem.

This is basically the old conflict between scripting (all religions end up in the right places at the right time) and player agency (your actions control which religions are founded). After thinking about this for a bit, I think it is best to acknowledge where the game is scripted and make it explicit, but always give the player the possibility to "beat" the script and claim the religion for themselves, even if it is hard. Without explicit planning, this was already the case for e.g. Zoroastrianism and Islam, which were indirectly (through starting techs) scripted to spawn with Persia and Islam respectively, but which you could theoretically found by researching those techs first.

So that would mean the following general changes:

• Religions remain associated to techs, but techs only enable founding religions. Usually, discovering the tech is not sufficient to automatically found a religion.
• Techs can only be founded if you have no state religion, but can adopt a state religion. This should discourage ahistorical religion stacking while running Pantheon or another religion, and instead encourages you to stick with the ahistorical religion instead. Of course, religions that deliberately build upon each other, like Hinduism -> Buddhism, are an exception to this rule.
• Every religion gets two founding conditions. Usually, one is a semi-scripted event that will make sure to found the religion in the right place and time, while the other allows you to beat the event and found it earlier elsewhere. These rules are unique to each religion. If we look back to 1.14, it already works like that for many religions, so the main change would be to systematise the situation and make it more explicit in the game rules and documentation (i.e. civilopedia)

Ideas/discussion for individual religions:

Judaism
Event: founded in a city in the Levant around 1500 BC (independent cities prioritised)
Goal: discover Writing and conquer an independent city

Orthodoxy
Event: founded in a city with Judaism around 1 AD
Goal: discover Ethics and create a Great Prophet in a city with Judaism (interacts with Ethiopian UHV, too hard?)

Catholicism
Event: founded when more than half of all Orthodox cities are outside of a civ without Orthodox state religion
Goal: discover Theology and build an Orthodox Cathedral

Protestantism
Event: (I think Protestantism doesn't really need one)
Goal: discover Humanities and have Catholic state religion

Islam
Event: Arabia spawns
Goal: discover Theology and ???

Hinduism
Event: India spawns
Goal: discover Ceremony and acquire six different happiness resources

Buddhism
Event: founded in a city with Hinduism around 300 AD
Goal: discover Philosophy and have Hindu, Confucian or Toaist state religion

Confucianism
Event:
Goal: discover Contract and have at least one Statesman slot

Taoism
Event:
Goal: discover Aesthetics and ???

Zoroastrianism
Event: Persia spawns
Goal: discover Priesthood and ???

I'm open for ideas and suggestions for the blank spaces.

 

[soul-breathing]

I can't enter DoC just now and I can't describe my opinion in detail, because I can't refer the new tech tree. But still I want say something about Confucianism and Taoism.

Actually it's more likely an idea about Chinese civ. The birth of China, I think, could move to 1600bc(rise of Shang Dynasty) or 1050bc(rise of Zhou Dynasty). Before it there could be some inde. cities in mainland of China, for human player could have 2 or 3 cities at beginning(Chang'an, Luoyang and another else or not). It could simulate the rise of Chinese civ and the unify of Qin Dynasty(221bc) perfectly. As for initial units and techs, we could discuss then.

As for those to religion, for Confucianism, Confucius himself was born in 551bc and this theory was formed in about 400bc, then in Han Dynasty(about 200bc) it become the official theory of the Empire; for Taoism, Laocius was born 571bc(in fact he had a formal meeting with Confucius), and this theory was formed in about 200ad. The holy city, Confucianism is Qufu, Shandong; while many city such as Luyi in Henan(Laocius born there), Chengdu or Shiyan in Hubei could be Taoism holy city.

Those above just for reference.

 

[Charriu]

Like the idea. Will the order of the goal matter e.G. do I have to discover the tech and then do the other thing? I would say no it doesn't matter.

 

[LikeNothing]

Islam
Goal: discover Theology, have Judaism, Orthodoxy, and 3 (or 2) Settled Great Prophets in your Core.

Taoism
Goal: discover Aesthetics and have more than X Population in your Core Cities without excess Unhealthiness.

Zoroastrianism
Goal: discover Priesthood and simultaneously control the Happiest and the Unhappiest (Hurrying doesn't count) Cities in the world.

 

[ales_]

Isn't 300 AD a little bit too late for Buddhism?

 

[rmontaruli]

I have something to underline about Catholicism:
Catholicism
Event: founded when more than half of all Orthodox cities are outside of a civ without Orthodox state religion

In a game with Egyptians, Ortodoxy spread in Alexandria, and immediatly i founded Catholicism.
Without teology or else.
And too soon in the history.

Maybe event condition should change with a minimum of Ortodox cities or civs.

 

[Tigranes]

In the constant battle between determinism and historical relevancy I suggest to adopt the following compromise: if any civ anywhere in the world discovers certain tech then the corresponding religion is founded in one of the pre-defined geographical region. Say, if any civ in the world has discovered Contract one of the Northern Chinese city is chosen to be Holy city for Confucianism. The owner of city is not important -- only the geographical region (and some conditions for the future Holy city). It is as deterministic as having civs spawning in particular geographical location, so I don't think it's too much to ask for. Basically if Rome or Ethiopia discover Ethics then Orthodoxy gets founded in one of the Levant cities with Judaism, even if neither civ owns the city. So technically Islam can appear before Arabs, but only in Arabia, if, say AI or Human China discovers Theology in "far away land". Ethiopia's goal will be -- Make sure Orthodoxy is present in your capital by certain date. RFC Classical World has Pilgrim unit which becomes a Missioner when gets next or inside the Holy City square. This could be a cool way for human player to ensure that he will get the desired religion, instead of waiting until it will naturally spread to him or even worse -- capturing a city just to get a religion. Founding civ may get Pilgrims of neutral religion next to his capital (three wise men ). In case of China discovering Theology these guys will become Confucian missioners the moment they walk next to their "regional" Holy city -- but if human players wants he can walk them all the way to Arabia, make them Muslim and bring them back to China. Korea might get "obtain Buddhism" (from Indian city) goal as well with this Pilgrim mechanics. This mechanic will also prompt human player to do some international traveling, other than war or scouting.

 

[Leoreth]

I can't enter DoC just now and I can't describe my opinion in detail, because I can't refer the new tech tree. But still I want say something about Confucianism and Taoism.

Actually it's more likely an idea about Chinese civ. The birth of China, I think, could move to 1600bc(rise of Shang Dynasty) or 1050bc(rise of Zhou Dynasty). Before it there could be some inde. cities in mainland of China, for human player could have 2 or 3 cities at beginning(Chang'an, Luoyang and another else or not). It could simulate the rise of Chinese civ and the unify of Qin Dynasty(221bc) perfectly. As for initial units and techs, we could discuss then.

Yes, I'd also like to move the Chinese start a bit later, and I think a 1600 BC start would work fine. However, with the tech tree changes still being tweaked, I don't want to introduce another moving element too soon. As soon as the other things are a bit more settled, we can discuss China more comprehensively in its own thread.

As for those to religion, for Confucianism, Confucius himself was born in 551bc and this theory was formed in about 400bc, then in Han Dynasty(about 200bc) it become the official theory of the Empire; for Taoism, Laocius was born 571bc(in fact he had a formal meeting with Confucius), and this theory was formed in about 200ad. The holy city, Confucianism is Qufu, Shandong; while many city such as Luyi in Henan(Laocius born there), Chengdu or Shiyan in Hubei could be Taoism holy city.

Those above just for reference.

I think those numbers put Confucianism somewhere in the 4-5th column (Contract or Law for thematic reasons) and Taoism in the 5-6th column (less sure about techs here). From a technology point of view, Alchemy would actually be more fitting, and while that may be too late, with Chinese tech speed and appropriate priotisation it could also work. Thoughts?

Like the idea. Will the order of the goal matter e.G. do I have to discover the tech and then do the other thing? I would say no it doesn't matter.

I agree, whenever both criteria are met at the same time.

Islam
Goal: discover Theology, have Judaism, Orthodoxy, and 3 (or 2) Settled Great Prophets in your Core.

Taoism
Goal: discover Aesthetics and have more than X Population in your Core Cities without excess Unhealthiness.

Zoroastrianism
Goal: discover Priesthood and simultaneously control the Happiest and the Unhappiest (Hurrying doesn't count) Cities in the world.

Thanks, I have also been thinking in the direction of GPs for Islam and population/health for Taoism.

Isn't 300 AD a little bit too late for Buddhism?

The idea is reflecting the current late "make sure Buddhism exists before Korea spawns" founding script. I think Buddhism can work with some variance, so it makes sense to give players more room to found it. Even if it winds up founded in East Asia as the other condition allows, that should not disrupt plausibility with regards to any other scripted aspects of the game such as starting state religions.

I have something to underline about Catholicism:
Catholicism
Event: founded when more than half of all Orthodox cities are outside of a civ without Orthodox state religion

In a game with Egyptians, Ortodoxy spread in Alexandria, and immediatly i founded Catholicism.
Without teology or else.
And too soon in the history.

Maybe event condition should change with a minimum of Ortodox cities or civs.

Were there any Orthodox civs in the game?

In the constant battle between determinism and historical relevancy I suggest to adopt the following compromise: if any civ anywhere in the world discovers certain tech then the corresponding religion is founded in one of the pre-defined geographical region. Say, if any civ in the world has discovered Contract one of the Northern Chinese city is chosen to be Holy city for Confucianism. The owner of city is not important -- only the geographical region (and some conditions for the future Holy city). It is as deterministic as having civs spawning in particular geographical location, so I don't think it's too much to ask for. Basically if Rome or Ethiopia discover Ethics then Orthodoxy gets founded in one of the Levant cities with Judaism, even if neither civ owns the city. So technically Islam can appear before Arabs, but only in Arabia, if, say AI or Human China discovers Theology in "far away land". Ethiopia's goal will be -- Make sure Orthodoxy is present in your capital by certain date. RFC Classical World has Pilgrim unit which becomes a Missioner when gets next or inside the Holy City square. This could be a cool way for human player to ensure that he will get the desired religion, instead of waiting until it will naturally spread to him or even worse -- capturing a city just to get a religion. Founding civ may get Pilgrims of neutral religion next to his capital (three wise men ). In case of China discovering Theology these guys will become Confucian missioners the moment they walk next to their "regional" Holy city -- but if human players wants he can walk them all the way to Arabia, make them Muslim and bring them back to China. Korea might get "obtain Buddhism" (from Indian city) goal as well with this Pilgrim mechanics. This mechanic will also prompt human player to do some international traveling, other than war or scouting.

Okay, that's really interesting, and could provide a good general rule without too many special cases, as my initial proposal does.

A couple of questions about your idea:
- So you would complete bar players from founding religions that are ahistorical for their region?
- Do you suggest Pilgrims as a unit that could also be built the normal way?
- How do you think AIs should use Pilgrim units?
- How about doing the deterministic founding only after N civs have discovered the required tech?

 

[Tigranes]

As far as I know RFC CW Pilgrims are used by AI and anyone can build them (well, maybe city has to have some religious building after all, even pagan temple would do). N civs for human player will not be a problem -- as an Ethiopia one could gift the tech to N-1 civs in order to get UHV done, so the question is -- what would be the point?

I honestly think historical region for religion is not a very big determinism. In a way religion is a meta-civilization. It can rise and fall, it can cover territory, it even has it's victory conditions. civs appear at the same spot and same time on the map, religion can appear in some region and around certain time in development of the world. I know, for the human player it might feel odd that his actions as Mayans, for example, can (theoretically) have effect in the unknown Old World, but one does not have to focus on it too much. Spain just appeared somewhere, Catholicism got founded somewhere. Who can tell for sure, why?

 

[Leoreth]

I'm currently considering a couple of things around this idea. For instance, we already have something like cores and historical areas for religions which I established to better model their spread, so we could also make use of that when founding religions.

I would therefore suggest to cast the area where a religion can be founded a bit wider than you originally proposed, e.g. Christianity does not need to be founded in the Levant, but can be founded everywhere that falls within the historical area of Orthodoxy. So in that example, the first civ with a city in the Orthodox historical area to discover Ethics will found Orthodoxy. Alternatively, if N civs have discovered Ethics without controlling a city in that area, Orthodoxy will be founded anyway (here we can use the more narrow "accurate" area). In either case, the first civ to discover Ethics will receive the pilgrims (we keep track of first to discover already).

We can keep special rules for religions that branch off of others: Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism.

I really like the Pilgrim idea because it also helps to solve other problems in the mod currently, especially helping Korea and Kongo to get Buddhism and Catholicism, respectively. We could also leverage this for Indonesia and Islam, another historical phenomenon that is hard to reflect with the existing game mechanics.

 

[Leoreth]

Look what I found when rereading my old threads on religion spread:

It would be cool if there was some kind of envoy unit you could send to a holy city to turn into a missionary, but that's more for later.

Seems like "later" is right now

 

[soul-breathing]

Yes, I'd also like to move the Chinese start a bit later, and I think a 1600 BC start would work fine. However, with the tech tree changes still being tweaked, I don't want to introduce another moving element too soon. As soon as the other things are a bit more settled, we can discuss China more comprehensively in its own thread.


I think those numbers put Confucianism somewhere in the 4-5th column (Contract or Law for thematic reasons) and Taoism in the 5-6th column (less sure about techs here). From a technology point of view, Alchemy would actually be more fitting, and while that may be too late, with Chinese tech speed and appropriate priotisation it could also work. Thoughts?

In fact both Confucianism and Taoism are more similar to kinds of philosophy theories rather than religions.

Historically Taixue appeared with Confucianism so it's maybe better Writing for Confucianism, but obviously it's too early, also we could choose Law or Generalship, but a bit late. Which I mean is Contract not so matter with Confucianism.

Then Taoism, you mentioned Alchemy, on the face of it Taoism close to it. But I'll say, Taoism is a kind of Philosophy, I mentioned it's occupied by Buddhism, so Medicine(Taoists in Ancient China often do some work of apothecary) and Scholarship are both OK.

By the way, I wonder if there could be some differences between religions. For example, Buildings of different religions have different effect.

 

[Leoreth]

I'm open to differentiate religions more later on.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Zoroastrianism: discover Priesthood and have two oil (unrevealed) in your area (mimics the use of natural gases leaks for fire temples)
or Zoroastrianism: discover Priesthood and have two incense resource worked on. (ties in with Zoroastrian URV)

Islam: discover Theology and Control both a pagan temple and a non pagan temple?
Islam: discover Theology and settle a great prophet in a city with three or more religions.

 

[ozqar]

Thinking of the tech quotes, I thought it would be nice to add them for the religions as well, perhaps even if they're a bit longer. So when you found them, and get the pop up, there's also this text with the video.
eg, I'm a big fan of the opening lines of the Tao Te Ching:
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao,
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things"

 

[Leoreth]

If we can come up with a complete collection of religion quotes?

 

[ozqar]

I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem, I'll open a thread!

 

[citis]

I will propsoe what I do in my modmod: Put religions in relatively late techs and script the right founding.
Human player can found the religions, but it will cost the UHV.
AIs most of the time found the religions right. (Except Judhaism, Babylonia founds it too often)

I agree too: a player cannot found a religion even if they discover the tech if:
*Already control holy city of a religion (exceptions: Hindu civ can found Buddhism, Confu civ can found Taoism) OR
*All cities have state religion (denominations are an exception to this rule)

 

[Leoreth]

I ended up using a modified version of Tigranes' suggestion, which works quite well already.