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New Version - May 19th (5-19)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, May 19, 2019.

  1. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    I meant counter-intuitive gameplay wise.
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    This sounds strange, to say the least. Not that you are wrong, but how can it be?
    Remembering how the distress is computed.
    Distress = (FoodCityEfficiency - WorldMedianFoodEfficiency) * EmpireSizePenalty * CitySizePenalty * TechPenalty * DistressDiscounts

    What I mean is that, if the base for all those calculations is a simple substraction, then what these values actually are still matters. Or it should.
     
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  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The happiness provided by buildings in Fealty is only available for those buildings if you take Fealty. Unhappiness reduction for urbanization from guilds is available to everyone. Those are not the same thing, thus the latter is not an intrinsic bonus to artistry. As you note, "you dont need heavy investment, cause everyone is working culture specialists anyway," thus everyone, artistry and fealty users alike, are getting those bonuses.

    He's likely referring to older versions in which you could achieve super high values when going super wide. I rarely see them above 150% for the AI. Bite has an unfortunate habit of not letting past (resolved) issues get in the way of a good argument in the here and now.

    G
     
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  4. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    No, Iam not speaking about "older" versions with "super wide" play. I speak about a 6 city ottoman game, where I reached +250% needs (350% in total) in my capital (in industrial age).
    I also speak about a super normal game directly in this version, with a super normal 9 city Carthago empire.
    Those are 3 of my core cities in the early/mid industrial age. They are relative small in comparison to my cities I have the most time in that stage of the game, but they have still a need for 290% of the median. Everyone except 1 (I think its a rounding error or something else) is unhappy, but the caps for each category and the need reduction buildings are lowering the unhappiness to an acceptable value:


    Only the capital may successfully battle the median, but every normal city is unhappy. Completly. Every citizen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree your mechanic is fine flavor wise, I dont have any issues rationalizing it. I just don’t like it from a gameplay standpoint.
     
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  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Bite, two of the cities in your example are happy, and for each of them the unhappiness is lower than the maximum. I’m not sure what the problem is.
     
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  7. Bhawb

    Bhawb Chieftain

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    Distress exists as it does now because we got rid of Crime, which was an even worse unhappiness need based on city CS. And since it had to get replaced and production/food weren't a part of it, they took over.

    Also yeah, Bite that looks entirely normal.
     
  8. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    Only because he has unhappiness reduction and/or hit the needs unhappiness cap. Otherwise, his deficits are equivalent to his population (minus 1). In his situation, there is zero point in him trying to meet any needs.

    If this is the standard situation, what exactly is the point of the needs system if the result is essentially 1 unhappiness per population, which is then alieviated by unhappiness reduction and happiness?
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
  9. Borussia

    Borussia Chieftain

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    I also don't know what he wants. If he wants that it is normal that all his cities are happy, then happiness lost its meaning. He could just disable happiness with reallyadvancedsetup.
    If his cities were happy even when he has not build all need reduction buildings or some public works and only has few luxury ressources, these need reduction buildings or public works or ressources or whatever would be useless in this aspect.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    20 - 8 != 0
    19 - 10 != 0
    19 - 7 != 0

    180% modifier is about right for cities of that size and at that point in the game. As I said, modifiers for the AI usually don't go above 150, but some hover around 200% mid/late game.

    G
     
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ah ok, so your saying that ultimately the yields the city is producing is completely irrelevant, the only control over unhappiness is the buildings that directly reduce unhappiness.

    In other words, its not:

    Distress = Food/Production
    Illiteracy = Science
    Boredom = Culture
    Poverty = Gold

    Its actually

    Distress = Production
    Illiteracy = Production
    Boredom = Production
    Poverty = Production

    That is a decent argument, I'd need more examples to confirm if that is always a problem but I now understand the concern.
     
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  12. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    He's essentially hit the needs cap in every city. His deficits are large enough that yields don't matter for alleviating needs, just buildings.

    The exact percentage doesn't matter if it results in the maximum unhappiness possible from needs regardless.
     
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  13. Bhawb

    Bhawb Chieftain

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    That's not accurate. He's at/near the point where he'd start having city-level penalties, but he's still less than half the unhappiness cap per city.
     
  14. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    He's not at the unhappiness cap. He's at the unhappiness from needs cap, hence why he has large deficits. He's no longer interacting with needs through yields.
     
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  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Right, so it invalidates my argument :(
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    But he's not, since his city isn't 100% unhappy. You could argue that there isn't enough floating happiness in cities (and thus he can't run many specialists), but that's intentional. IF we feel that there should be more 'floating happiness' to give cities a wider divide between happy and unhappy, we can consider it, but the current system is functioning as intended and is far, far less harsh than it used to be.

    G
     
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  17. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I'm asking for an explanation. In terms of design what is distress supposed to do? This question sounds condescending because frankly I've asked it nicely like 20 times and you haven't answered. I'm not asking you to change anything in the mod, I assume there is something I'm missing because I cannot make sense of the feature at all.

    I actually agree with @BiteInTheMark, which I don't believe has happened before. There is a ton of math going on for your happiness yields, its super complex, its not easy to understand, but it doesn't actually create much depth or meaningful gameplay choices. By the late game, you can't actually reduce illiteracy by producing science, only the science needs modifier.

    A 20 population city will regularly have 0 unhappiness. My 25 pop city has 4-5 unhappiness. My 30 pop city has 8-10. This scaling is so punishing to growth, and punihsing to wide with low growth at all not settling extra cities. Right now you could have 10,000 cities and stay at 100% happiness. That 20 pop city probably can work more specialists too, which is making food so bad.
     
  18. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    Then I must not understand something. What is the deficit for each need mean?
     
  19. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I just wished City Happiness were allowed to be 150% of Total Citizens just so events can use the happiness boost.
     
  20. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    The Celtic Pantheon Lugh and Babylon's early Walls are also a lot harder to use now, I would assume? Are we going to make those Specialists free?
     

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