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How fat is too fat?

Being “overweight” may not be so bad for your health after all. The latest evidence comes from a large study where people who were classed as overweight, but not obese, had a slightly lower rate of death than people with a supposedly ideal weight – hinting that the threshold at which individuals are classed as overweight has been set too low.

It is uncontroversial that being very heavy is bad for people’s health, but it is unclear at what point health risks begin. Doctors usually advise people to lose weight if they have a high body mass index (BMI), which is someone’s weight in kilograms divided by the square of their height in metres.

In most countries, a healthy weight is defined as a BMI between 18.5 and 24.9. Having a BMI between 25 and 29.9 is classed as overweight and 30 and above is obese. These thresholds became the medical orthodoxy after being cited in a report from the World Health Organization in 1997.

Previous research made waves when it found that people who are somewhat over the “healthy” threshold of 25 may actually have a slightly lower rate of death than those who are slimmer. But many of these studies are fairly old, done when people were generally slimmer and their participants weren’t ethnically diverse, says Aayush Visaria at Rutgers Institute for Health in New Brunswick, New Jersey.

To address those issues, he and Soko Setoguchi, also at Rutgers Institute for Health, analysed data from a more recent study, which began in 1999, and tracked the survival of about 500,000 ethnically diverse US adults of known height and weight, for up to 20 years.

Having a BMI between 25 and 27.4 carried a 5 per cent lower risk of death in this time period than a BMI within the healthy weight category of 22.5 to 24.9. A slightly higher BMI, of 27.5 to 29.9, seemed even better, linked with a 7 per cent lower risk of death.

One criticism of this kind of study is that the apparent benefit of being overweight could be an artefact caused by people who lose weight when they are ill being more likely to die.

But in the new research, the pattern was seen even if people who died within two years of entering the study were excluded from the figures.

Visaria says it would be premature to conclude that having a BMI currently classed as overweight is better than being in the healthy weight category, because population studies such as this one can have biases that distort the results. “We are not clear that this is truly interpretable yet,” he says. “A more appropriate message is that BMI overall is just not a good indicator of mortality risk – other factors such as body fat distribution also play an important role.”

Katherine Flegal at Stanford University in California, who was one of the first researchers to demonstrate that being classed as being somewhat overweight carried a lower risk of death, says the current thresholds for overweight and obese are arbitrary. “Nature does not organise itself with nice, neat numbers – these are clearly digit preferences when you have numbers like 25 and 30,” she says.

In June, the American Medical Association advised doctors that BMI shouldn’t be used in isolation to assess people’s weight, but should be considered alongside other factors such as waist circumference and other measures of health.

Roy Taylor at Newcastle University in the UK says BMI was developed as a way to assess the health of populations and shouldn’t be used to give health advice to individuals.

New Scientist (Paywalled) Paper


Spoiler Legend :

Fig 1. Association between BMI and all-cause mortality in the overall NHIS cohort.
Fig 1 shows the hazard ratios for BMI categories, relative to a BMI of 22.5–24.9. Confidence bands represent 95% CI. (A) presents the hazard ratios for the overall cohort. The blue line represents the overall cohort. The red line depicts healthy, never-smoking individuals. Healthy defined as no self-reported history of cardiovascular disease or non-skin cancer except melanoma. (B) presents the hazard ratios for the overall cohort, excluding individuals who died within 2 years of follow-up. The blue line represents the overall sample. The red line depicts healthy, never-smoking individuals. Healthy defined as no self-reported history of cardiovascular disease or non-skin cancer or melanoma. Please note that hazard ratios for BMI groups for all subjects and healthy, never-smokers are relative to different reference groups and thus may not be comparable.


Spoiler I may have to read the paper to why there are such different shapes by sex/race :

Spoiler Legend :

Fig 3. Association between BMI and All-cause mortality by gender and age group.
Fig 3 shows the hazard ratios for BMI categories, relative to a BMI of 22.5–24.9, by gender and age group. All figures exclude first two years of follow-up. Confidence bands represent 95% CI. The blue line represents all individuals in subgroup. The red line depicts healthy, never-smoking individuals within subgroup. Healthy defined as no self-reported history of cardiovascular disease or non-skin cancer or melanoma. (A) presents the hazard ratios among females<65 years overall. (B) presents the hazard ratios for females greater than or equal to 65. (C) presents the hazard ratios among males<65. (D) presents the hazard ratios among males greater than or equal to 65. Please note that hazard ratios for BMI groups for all subjects and healthy, never-smokers are relative to different reference groups and thus may not be comparable.


Spoiler Legend :

Fig 4. Association between BMI and all-cause mortality by gender and age group.
Fig 4 shows the hazard ratios for BMI categories, relative to a BMI of 22.5–24.9, by race/ethnicity. Confidence bands represent 95% CI. The blue line represents all individuals. The red line depicts healthy, never-smoking individuals. Healthy defined as no self-reported history of cardiovascular disease or non-skin cancer or melanoma. (A) presents the hazard ratios among non-Hispanic Whites overall. (B) presents the hazard ratios for non-Hispanic Blacks. (C) presents the hazard ratios for Hispanics. (D) presents the hazard ratios among non-Hispanic Whites, excluding individuals who died within 2 years of follow-up. (E) presents the hazard ratios among non-Hispanic Blacks, excluding individuals who died within 2 years of follow-up. (F) presents the hazard ratios among Hispanics, excluding individuals who died within 2 years of follow-up. Please note that hazard ratios for BMI groups for all subjects and healthy, never-smokers are relative to different reference groups and thus may not be comparable. show less

 
I may have to read the paper to why there are such different shapes by sex/race

At a first glance, a lot of the differences by race are likely down to sample size. The study group was about 70% white, so the black and hispanic datasets are much smaller. It's a give away that the graphs for non-Hispanic white give nice neat curves, but the others are much more uneven. It looks to me like the error margins overlap for all three sets.

Similarly the anomalous values for those with BMIs below 18.5 are likely because there are very few people in those categories. Assuming the shaded area is the error margin, it's huge for most of those datapoints.

I'm wondering if the old muscle being denser that fat issue is enough to account for this rather small effect (about 6% +/- 4ish% by eye?). Not uncommon for guys who exercise a lot to be into the overweight range by BMI, even though they're fine by body fat percentage, and you'd expect them to be a bit healthier than the average.
 

Transparent mouse could improve cancer drug tests​

A new scanning method involving a see-through mouse could improve how cancer drugs are tested, by picking up tumours previously too small to detect.
Prof Ali Ertürk of the Helmholtz Munich research centre worked out how to make a dead mouse transparent in 2018.
His team have now used chemicals to highlight specific tissues so that they can be scanned in unprecedented detail.
Drugs are often tested first on mice. Scientists say the new scanning method could revolutionise medical research.

Cancer Research UK said the new scanning technique had "a wealth of potential".

The researchers say the method reveals far greater detail than existing scanning techniques. In one of the first applications the team has detected cancerous tumours in the first stages of formation.

Prof Ertürk says this is important because cancer drugs have to be shown to eliminate tumours in mice before being tested on humans.
"MRI and PET scans would show you only big tumours. Ours show tumours at the single cell, which they absolutely can't".
"Current drugs extend life by a few years and then the cancer comes back. This is because the development process never included eliminating those tiny tumours, which were never visible."
Normally lab mice are given cancer and scanned with conventional scans to see how the tumour has progressed. They are then treated with the cancer drug being tested and then scanned again to see what if any difference the treatment has had.
Prof Ertürk's scanning method can only be used on dead mice, to give a picture of how much cancer has progressed, or potentially, whether a treatment has worked. He made mice transparent after they were given cancer and then scanned them using his new technique. Only a few mice would need to be made transparent to test the effectiveness of the drug.

Dr Rupal Mistry, research information manager at Cancer Research UK, said:

"This exciting and unique scanning technique has a wealth of potential for building our knowledge of how our bodies work and what goes wrong in diseases like cancer.
"While researchers will only be able to use the technique to examine the bodies of deceased mice, it could tell us a lot about how cancer develops at the early stages of the disease. Being able to visualise tumours in the context of the entire body will also give researchers a greater understanding of the impact of different drugs and treatment.
"Advances in technology like this are essential to driving progress and will hopefully lead to new ways to detect, treat and prevent cancer."
The cancer application, published in the journal Nature Biotechnology, is just one of hundreds if not thousands to which the new scanning technique can be used to improve medical studies. It can enable researchers to see things they have never seen before.
Mouse studies are often the starting point for learning about processes in the human body. But the new technique can be used on any animals. It could also be used to make human tissues and organs transparent, though it is unlikely to be used to make an entire human body transparent in the near future because there would be no medical advances that could be made from it at this stage.
Creation of the transparent mouse involves removing all the fats and pigment from its corpse, using a chemical process. It ends up looking like a clear plastic toy, which is ever so slightly bendy. Its organs and nerves are all still inside it - but near invisible.

While Prof Ertürk's developed the process to make a mouse transparent five years ago, the scanning technique makes the most of it.
He has found a way of adding other chemicals known as antibodies to highlight the parts of the mouse he is interested in studying under a microscope. Different antibodies stick to different types of tissue and so highlight whatever the researchers are interested in looking at.
As well as highlighting cancerous areas, Prof Ertürk's team has produced a suite of videos which enable researchers to fly through the mouse's nervous system, gut or lymph system.
The scans have several advantages over what is available now.
First, the researchers can study diseases in the context of the entire body, which gives them a much greater understanding of the impact of different drugs and treatments.
The 3D images are also stored online, so researchers studying different parts of the animal or wanting to do the same experiment can draw from a library, rather than having to use another mouse. Prof Ertürk believes that the technique could reduce lab animal use tenfold.

Dr Nana-Jane Chipampe, of the Wellcome Sanger Institute in Cambridge, is excited at the prospect of using the new scanning technique to study how cells develop in the human body. Currently she has to slice up tissues into very thin sections to study them under a microscope. Soon she will be able to see details in 3D.
"I can't wait to get my hands on it!" she told me enthusiastically.
"It has the potential to identify new tissues, cells and diseases which will really help us understand the development of diseases."
Her team leader, Prof Muzlifah Haniffa, is producing an online map or atlas of every cell in the human body. She says the new scanning technique will be useful for all kinds of medical research.
"Without a doubt, it will accelerate the pace of medical research," she said. "Combining these cutting-edge technologies and building the human cell atlas will no doubt completely revolutionise medicine."
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66119980
 
File under, "Hold onto your butts." It's going to be a big file.

The New York Times, 12 July 2023 - "How Hot Is the Sea Off Florida Right Now? Think 90s Fahrenheit"

NY Times said:
Florida’s coral reefs are facing what could be an unprecedented threat from a marine heat wave that is warming the Gulf of Mexico, pushing water temperatures into the 90s.

The biggest concern for coral isn’t just the current sea surface temperatures in the Florida Keys, even though they are the hottest on record. The daily average surface temperature off the Keys on Monday was just over 90 degrees Fahrenheit (32.4 Celsius), according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

The real worry, scientists say, is that it’s only July. Corals typically experience the most heat stress in August and September.
NY Times said:
Coral reefs are particularly important because so many species rely on them. About 25% of all marine life, including more than 4,000 kinds of fish, depend on reefs at some point in their lives, according to NOAA.

While there aren’t yet reports of bleaching in Florida, it has already begun on reefs to the south, Manzello said, off Belize, Mexico, El Salvador, Costa Rica and Colombia.

Alternate link.
 
When did the Anthropocene start?

It is more geopolitical and sociopolitical than you may have thought

Nature review:

The official marker for the start of a new Anthropocene epoch should be a small Canadian lake whose sediments capture chemical traces of the fallout from nuclear bombs and other forms of environmental degradation. That’s a proposal out today from researchers who have spent 14 years debating when and how humanity began altering the planet.

If the proposal is approved, a sediment core from Crawford Lake — which lies in a conservation area near Toronto — would become the ‘golden spike’ marking the beginning of the Anthropocene, the geological epoch in which humanity has profoundly affected Earth. Year after year, particles settle onto the lake and drift to its bottom, forming sediment layers that record environmental conditions much as tree rings do. Among the embedded contaminants are specks of fly ash— remnants from burning fossil fuels — and traces of radioactive plutonium from atmospheric nuclear bomb testing.

“We have the key markers of the Anthropocene — at Crawford Lake they line up perfectly,” says Francine McCarthy, a micropalaeontologist at Brock University in St Catharines, Canada, who heads the team that studies the lake.

The Anthropocene Working Group announced the lake’s nomination at a stratigraphy conference in Lille, France, and a press conference in Berlin. Three geological organizations must approve the choice for it to become the official marker.

Dissent from China:

Earlier this year, the group narrowed the list down to two finalists: Crawford Lake and Sihailongwan Lake in northeastern China. In April, Crawford Lake gained approval from 60% of the working group to earn the title of candidate golden-spike site.

Both lakes contain annual sediment layers that capture environmental changes over time. But unlike Crawford, which reflects the influence of nearby Toronto, Sihailongwan is relatively undisturbed by local influences and thus contains a broader record of change, says Yongmin Han, a geochemist at the Institute of Earth Environment of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in X’ian. “I cannot understand the outcome, when a more globally representative candidate for defining the Anthropocene was rejected,” he says.

Dissent from an ecologist :

To define the Anthropocene as a shallow band of sediment in a single lake is an esoteric academic matter. But dividing Earth’s human transformation into two parts, pre- and post- 1950, does real damage by denying the deeper history and the ultimate causes of Earth’s unfolding social-environmental crisis. Are the planetary changes wrought by industrial and colonial nations before 1950 not significant enough to transform the planet? The political ramifications of such a misleading and scientifically inaccurate portrayal are clearly profound and regressive. Perhaps AWG’s break in Earth history will simply be ignored outside stratigraphy. But this is undoubtedly neither AWG’s goal, nor is it the way AWG’s narrative is being interpreted across the public media.
 
Most ‘happiness hacks’ are unproven (but meeting people and being nice have the best evidence)

Researchers looked at almost 500 happiness studies through a “post-replication-crisis lens” and found little solid evidence that three activities often recommended to boost mood — exercise, spending time in nature and meditating — actually do so. “The evidence just melts away when you actually look at it closely,” says psychologist and study leader Elizabeth Dunn. There was better support for two other approaches to attaining happiness: expressing gratitude and pursuing more social interaction.

 
Exercise doesn't seem to boost my all day happiness much but I sure feel a helluvalot better while I'm doing it.

Social interaction and weed seem to be the best (for me) at boosting all day happiness (both activate the endocannabinoid system), altho mj use rapidly loses efficacy at a usage of more than once a week (ideally once every fortnight or less)

I don't think meditating during a study is gonna do much, you have to be intrinsically motivated/dedicated. Treat it like a hack expect hacky results.
 
Most ‘happiness hacks’ are unproven (but meeting people and being nice have the best evidence)

Researchers looked at almost 500 happiness studies through a “post-replication-crisis lens” and found little solid evidence that three activities often recommended to boost mood — exercise, spending time in nature and meditating — actually do so. “The evidence just melts away when you actually look at it closely,” says psychologist and study leader Elizabeth Dunn. There was better support for two other approaches to attaining happiness: expressing gratitude and pursuing more social interaction.

Highly skeptical on the face of it.
 
A room temperature superconductor might have been discovered in Korea.


There might be more to LK-99 than skeptics expected, as two research teams claim to have informally confirmed certain aspects of the superconductivity claims — albeit in preliminary testing.

Such a super conductor is the holy grail of material science.
Fingers crossed.

Also, lots of toxic lead in this stuff.
Would be ironic if we got lead out of pipes and paint only to one day fill our electronics with it.
 
A room temperature superconductor might have been discovered in Korea.




Such a super conductor is the holy grail of material science.
Fingers crossed.

Also, lots of toxic lead in this stuff.
Would be ironic if we got lead out of pipes and paint only to one day fill our electronics with it.
It is massive if true, but there seems to be enough questions that I would not bet on it.

Critics have pointed out that lead apatite, the basis for the superconductor, is an unpromising starting point. And there’s no solid explanation for the physics behind the claim.​
“They come off as real amateurs,” says Michael Norman, a theorist at Argonne National Laboratory. “They don't know much about superconductivity and the way they’ve presented some of the data is fishy.” On the other hand, he says, researchers at Argonne and elsewhere are already trying to replicate the experiment. “People here are taking it seriously and trying to grow this stuff.” Nadya Mason, a condensed matter physicist at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign says, “I appreciate that the authors took appropriate data and were clear about their fabrication techniques.” Still, she cautions, “The data seems a bit sloppy.”​

Spoiler More details :
What are the reasons for skepticism?
There are several, Norman says. First, the undoped material, lead apatite, isn’t a metal but rather a nonconducting mineral. And that’s an unpromising starting point for making a superconductor. What’s more, lead and copper atoms have similar electronic structures, so substituting copper atoms for some of the lead atoms shouldn’t greatly affect the electrical properties of the material, Norman says. “You have a rock, and you should still end up with a rock.” On top of that, lead atoms are very heavy, which should suppress the vibrations and make it harder for electrons to pair, Norman explains.

Do the authors have an explanation for what’s going on?
The papers don’t provide a solid explanation of the physics at play. But the researchers speculate that within their material, the doping slightly distorts long, naturally occurring chains of lead atoms. They say the superconductivity might occur along these 1D channels. But that would be surprising, Norman says, because 1D systems don’t generally produce superconductivity. What’s more, the disorder introduced by the doping ought to further suppress superconductivity. “You have one dimension, which is bad, and you have disorder, which is also bad,” Norman says. Mason isn’t so certain. She notes that Lee and Kim also suggest that a kind of undulation of charge might exist in the chains and that similar charge patterns have been seen in high-temperature superconductors. “Maybe this material really just hits the sweet spot of a strongly interacting unconventional superconductor,” she says.

How will this be sorted out?
The big question will be whether anybody can reproduce the observations. That shouldn’t be too hard, Norman says, as lead apatite is a well-known material that others should be able to synthesize. However, doing that isn’t quite as simple as some spectators on social media have made it out to be. “The general public seems oddly pumped about how ‘easy’ the 4-day, multistep, small batch, solid state synthesis is,” Jennifer Fowlie, a condensed matter physicist at SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory, quipped on Twitter. “Some of you haven't had blisters from overusing your pestle and it shows.” Nevertheless, physicists will put the claim to the test very quickly, Norman predicts: “If this is real, we’ll know within a week.”
 
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The other holy grail right now is a cancer drug that isn't a shotgun blast to the human body.


A new “cancer-stopping” drug has been found to “annihilate” solid cancerous tumours in early stage studies.

The chemotherapy drug leaves healthy cells unaffected, scientists said.

The AOH1996 drug was named after a child...

...Selectively kill cancer cells
AOH1996 was tested in more than 70 cell lines and was found to selectively kill cancer cells by disrupting the normal cell reproductive cycle, but it did not interrupt the reproductive cycle of healthy stem cells.

Pre-clinical studies suggest the drug has been shown to be effective in treating cells derived from breast, prostate, brain, ovarian, cervical, skin and lung cancers.

The drug still needs to go through rigorous safety and efficacy testing and large-scale clinical trials before it can be used widely.

But the first patient received the potentially cancer-stopping pill in October with the phase one clinical trial still ongoing and expected to last for at least two years.

Patients are still being recruited to the trial.
So far the small-scale human testing in the phase 1 clinical trial seems to be going ok if they are still recruiting more humans. :hmm:

Disrupting cell reproductive cycles is terrifying if it goes wrong.

 
One more science hit.

The Earth surrounded by Elon Musk's sofa-sized satellites.
The graphics here are the best I've seen in a news article. :love:

 
Norman predicts: “If this is real, we’ll know within a week.”
Over a week later, the headlines are pretty negative, but it does not look bad to me. Less than 2 weeks after the announcement multiple other groups claim to demonstrate the Meissner effect, and no one talking about intellectual property. Is there any other tech that has kicked off that fast? Is not a cheapish materiel that demonstrates the Meissner effect a big thing even if it is not a superconductor? But I know nothing about this, and it could all be fraudsters with lots of lead futures or whatever.

Headlines are pretty negative, from el Reg yesterday:

Scientists strangely unable to follow recipe for holy grail room-temp superconductor

Scientists are struggling to verify South Korean eggheads' claim to have synthesized a material that exhibits superconductivity at room temperature and normal pressure.

and nature from the 4th but corrected on the 7th:

Claimed superconductor LK-99 is an online sensation — but replication efforts fall short

A South Korean team’s claim to have discovered a superconductor that works at room temperature and ambient pressure has become a viral sensation — and prompted a slew of replication efforts by scientists and amateurs alike. But initial efforts to experimentally and theoretically reproduce the buzzworthy result have come up short, and researchers remain deeply sceptical.

Multiple other groups claim to demonstrate the Meissner effect:

If twitterx work this looks easy to see (or nitter here):



Then there are these two videos in foreign, harder to see and seriously if that is the third time humanity has made a room conditions superconductor they need some more funding.

This is from the wiki page.
 
I won't hold my breadth.
 
Over a week later, the headlines are pretty negative, but it does not look bad to me. Less than 2 weeks after the announcement multiple other groups claim to demonstrate the Meissner effect, and no one talking about intellectual property. Is there any other tech that has kicked off that fast? Is not a cheapish materiel that demonstrates the Meissner effect a big thing even if it is not a superconductor?

The Meissner effect by definition is a product of superconductivity. There are some other kinds of magnetic levitation effects that occur, but they wouldn't be in remotely the same league in terms of impact. The Meissner effect here is only really of interest as a diagnostic of whether the material is in fact superconducting.

I'm not too optimistic on this one. The video clips of the magnet levitating just don't look much like the classic Meissner effect. Sure, it's partially floating on one side, but in all of them it's just kind of twitching with one edge still in contact. In the original clip the magnet even flips over and actively sticks to the alleged superconductor at one point. A superconductor shouldn't do that.

There's plenty of video of the existing YBCO and similar materials showing the Meissner effect, and the difference is striking. The magnets float completely clear of the superconductor and, crucially, it doesn't matter what orientation they are in. You can give the magnet a flick and it'll stay floating and spin, hovering above the centre of the superconductor, because zero resistance (through some physics I won't pretend to entirely follow) means the field is always perfectly counterbalanced by the induced one in the superconductor, regardless of what angle the poles of the ordinary magnet are at.

I'd like this to be true, and for this to be another completely out of left field discovery like YBCO and its relatives were, but the evidence so far is not very convincing. I could maybe - maybe - believe there's some superconductivity going on, but the material is very heterogeneous, with some bits superconducting and some not. That might fit with the kind of "very imperfect Meissner" in the videos. But it could just be it's an unrelated magnetic effect. Have to wait and see.
 
The Meissner effect by definition is a product of superconductivity. There are some other kinds of magnetic levitation effects that occur, but they wouldn't be in remotely the same league in terms of impact. The Meissner effect here is only really of interest as a diagnostic of whether the material is in fact superconducting.

I'm not too optimistic on this one. The video clips of the magnet levitating just don't look much like the classic Meissner effect. Sure, it's partially floating on one side, but in all of them it's just kind of twitching with one edge still in contact. In the original clip the magnet even flips over and actively sticks to the alleged superconductor at one point. A superconductor shouldn't do that.

There's plenty of video of the existing YBCO and similar materials showing the Meissner effect, and the difference is striking. The magnets float completely clear of the superconductor and, crucially, it doesn't matter what orientation they are in. You can give the magnet a flick and it'll stay floating and spin, hovering above the centre of the superconductor, because zero resistance (through some physics I won't pretend to entirely follow) means the field is always perfectly counterbalanced by the induced one in the superconductor, regardless of what angle the poles of the ordinary magnet are at.

I'd like this to be true, and for this to be another completely out of left field discovery like YBCO and its relatives were, but the evidence so far is not very convincing. I could maybe - maybe - believe there's some superconductivity going on, but the material is very heterogeneous, with some bits superconducting and some not. That might fit with the kind of "very imperfect Meissner" in the videos. But it could just be it's an unrelated magnetic effect. Have to wait and see.

The proposed mechanism is supposed to be a quantum well at the heterojunction. One of the defining features of a quantum well is that it is not an isotropic structure, but rather a 2-D structure. In that case, the superconductivity might also not be isotropic and also be only in one or two dimensions. Add in a heterogeneous crystalline structure, and you could have an explanation for a kind of "very imperfect Meissner effect". Take this with a mountain of salt though, because the ad-hoc theories of experimental sold state physicist explaining weird effects are usually a load of bollocks (even - or especially - if the effect is a real breakthrough).

That said, I share the skepticism. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and this isn't it.
 

Do You Love Your Liver Enough?​

Are you taking care of your liver? Most Americans take their livers for granted. Coffee and soft drinks have different impacts.

Should be open to all.

 
I saw yesterday that the U.S. has committed the first $1.2 billion (of $3.5 billion planned) for a set of four direct-air-capture carbon-capture-and-storage plants.


Each plant will capture at least 1 million tons of carbon per year, for 4 million total from this set.

So far, all of the world's direct air capture plants combined capture 11,000 tons per year, so this is a massive step up. From experimental to, "what if we really build these on an industrial scale?"

By comparison, right now humanity pumps 38 billion tons of carbon into the air each year; these four plants will remove one-ten-thousandth of that. If we build 40,000 such plants, at a cost of $12 trillion, we'll have countered out net annual emissions.

The hope, of course, is that as we build a few of these, we'll get better at building them, and it won't cost $12 trillion to cancel out our emissions (and maybe we'll also reduce our emissions).

I think it's pretty cool that we're building these plants, and trying to scale this up. Some are skeptical that it will ever work out, but IMO it's worth putting some money into industrial scale plants and seeing where we can take it. We'd have never developed steam-powered railroads or nuclear power plants if no one ever put up the money to build the first few, and I'm sure there were many that thought iron horses and nuclear power were boondoggles.

Or maybe it won't scale well, but I could think of worse things to take a $1.2 billion chance on.
 
I think this only makes sense in a world where we are going all out for reduction in carbon emmisions. This is from your linked page:

Benson’s Stanford colleague Mark Jacobson, an atmospheric scientist, calls the program “a boondoggle” and “a complete waste of money.” He argues that because DAC requires so much energy to capture CO2, purify it, and pump it underground for permanent storage, it is one of the most expensive and inefficient ways to sequester carbon. A better climate strategy, Jacobson says, would be to simply spend the money on building out renewable energy faster, so that coal and natural gas electricity plants can be retired more quickly.​

To burn fossil fuels to capture CO2 like this has to be a bit mad, right?
 
I think this only makes sense in a world where we are going all out for reduction in carbon emmisions. This is from your linked page:

Benson’s Stanford colleague Mark Jacobson, an atmospheric scientist, calls the program “a boondoggle” and “a complete waste of money.” He argues that because DAC requires so much energy to capture CO2, purify it, and pump it underground for permanent storage, it is one of the most expensive and inefficient ways to sequester carbon. A better climate strategy, Jacobson says, would be to simply spend the money on building out renewable energy faster, so that coal and natural gas electricity plants can be retired more quickly.​

To burn fossil fuels to capture CO2 like this has to be a bit mad, right?

Yes and no. Unless this is powered by surplus renewable energy which we don't know what to do with, this is going to be a net loss in any way you look at it. But even if we managed to stop emitting one day, we would still have too much CO2 in the atmosphere. We may not want to wait a millennium until it goes out of the atmosphere by itself, so it is a good idea to explore ways to make CO2 emissions negative. This can only be a solution after we massively reduce emissions of course.

It is also interesting for setting a price on CO2 emissions. If it costs x dollar to remove a ton of carbon from the atmosphere, it should cost at least that much (preferably more) to emit a ton of carbon into the atmosphere. The question is, how do you get the world to agree on that?
 
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