NiGHTS: on balance issues

Playing England and I believe the galley might be dis-balanced. Went to war with Greece and my city bombarded one of their galley, bringing it down to about 2 HPs. Now currently my Caravel, Ship of the Line (obviously here XD) and a full health galley instantly kill another galley, but that nearly dead galley turned and sunk a full health galley with one hit. Full health I can sort of understand, but isn't its strength to low if it can be sunk by another galley nearly dead already?

Also, should a Lancer on Defense get a -15% Terrain Modifier and a +20% Defensive Terrain Modifier as well? Kind of seems a bit odd to me.

The main reason why they're so weak is because they can also be built be Barbarians. I avoided making them stronger so that in situations where a barbarian galley is shooting at a fortified AI player, (usually for hundreds of years), they're easy enough to take out as this can get incredibly annoying.

As for Lancers - the modifiers might seem kind of strange, but they're the vanilla modifiers which I haven't actually changed. :crazyeye:
 
Just two balance issues I have noticed. The biggest one by far is that work boats take happiness. Even when they become fishing boats, so that is a HUGE hit to my game's happiness level (coastal cities are abundant for me, so instead of having those extra six soldiers, stuck at negative happiness because of those darn boats for fish and pearls...)

Second is the great wall. Might be a bit overpowered, but be nice if you got free walls in all your cities. Makes a bit of sense since the real wall went around such a large portion of China, and not just one city, but might make it too strong. But than again, stone hedge gives monuments and that is rather strong for cultural boosts :-).
 
Just two balance issues I have noticed. The biggest one by far is that work boats take happiness. Even when they become fishing boats, so that is a HUGE hit to my game's happiness level (coastal cities are abundant for me, so instead of having those extra six soldiers, stuck at negative happiness because of those darn boats for fish and pearls...)

Second is the great wall. Might be a bit overpowered, but be nice if you got free walls in all your cities. Makes a bit of sense since the real wall went around such a large portion of China, and not just one city, but might make it too strong. But than again, stone hedge gives monuments and that is rather strong for cultural boosts :-).

Work boats don't consume Happiness. If this is happening in your game, then you'll need to delete your cache, the contents of your ModUserData folder, and verify your game files through Steam. Also make sure you have only one version of the mod installed, and that you aren't running other mods.

As for the Great Wall providing free Walls in every City, I would only consider this if it didn't already give defensive movement bonuses within your own territory. Allowing both would just be OP'd at this point.

Stonehenge is more powerful compared to other Wonders in the Ancient Era because it's generally the first Wonder available to be built - and if you choose to build it, you forgo a lot of potential growth and expansion. The risk/reward needs to be large enough for this particular Wonder to make it feel worthwhile - and the Cultural Revolution you potentially get, (if it's the first Wonder built), plays into this as well.
 
Markus, will you alter anything about tech speed on Quick speed in the coming 10.1 update?
Maybe adjusting (lowering) values for Renaissance and later?
 
Markus, will you alter anything about tech speed on Quick speed in the coming 10.1 update?
Maybe adjusting (lowering) values for Renaissance and later?

I wasn't planning on it - just because it's currently balanced with all of the other speed settings. Some of the changes to early Happiness could possibly carry over and affect research rates in later era's, so I'll wait till I get feedback on that before adjusting actual research rates.
 
Not sure steam power is done right. You obsolete Caravel and Frigate which are ocean capable units, and instead allow only the ironclad which cannot enter ocean. Thus, until you go quite a bit ahead, you can't go into the ocean anymore...
 
Not sure steam power is done right. You obsolete Caravel and Frigate which are ocean capable units, and instead allow only the ironclad which cannot enter ocean. Thus, until you go quite a bit ahead, you can't go into the ocean anymore...

Good point - I'll have frigates obsolete with a different tech, caravels will stay obsoleted though.
 
I understand why you have the production cost of units increase as you get more of them, but atm I am thinking that it is overdone. While not to painful at first, and when you have many types of units to choose from (early game), middle game only has one infantry, one cavalry, and one artillery, it gets rather expensive. I end up in a two front war and it takes 20 turns at my capitol (with over 100 hammers available) to make 1 rifleman, and the cost to buy is outrageous as well. I know this will stay an issue into the end game as well, with it staying so few choices allowed.

Diversity is great and makes it interesting early on, but we only have those choices until everything streamlines into the musketmen/riflemen line. Maybe only have that occur early on, or add new infantry types like flamethrowers (+25% against non armored infantry, -50% against cities), rocket men (+50% against cities, -25% against infantry) and so on.
 
I understand why you have the production cost of units increase as you get more of them, but atm I am thinking that it is overdone. While not to painful at first, and when you have many types of units to choose from (early game), middle game only has one infantry, one cavalry, and one artillery, it gets rather expensive. I end up in a two front war and it takes 20 turns at my capitol (with over 100 hammers available) to make 1 rifleman, and the cost to buy is outrageous as well. I know this will stay an issue into the end game as well, with it staying so few choices allowed.

Diversity is great and makes it interesting early on, but we only have those choices until everything streamlines into the musketmen/riflemen line. Maybe only have that occur early on, or add new infantry types like flamethrowers (+25% against non armored infantry, -50% against cities), rocket men (+50% against cities, -25% against infantry) and so on.

You raise a good point about a larger variety of units available in the early game.

Keeping that in mind, there's a few reasons why the production/gold costs increase. Production, overall, can really build up in NiGHTS compared to Vanilla CIV V, and when AI bonuses are factored in on the higher levels, the mechanic currently in place helps to limit the amount of units on any given map so that the carpet-of-doom scenario doesn't happen. The AI also doesn't always make the best tech choices, and in some cases they still use older units in later eras - and if there was no regulating cost mechanic in place, these cheaper units could really clutter things up and make for a tedious experience.

Also, the higher cost of units forces you to play more optimally in regards to policy synergy choices and specialist economies. If I lower the cost of units, it starts to make things too easy for the players that micro manage their empires. I'll admit there's a fine line here, as I still want players who don't gravitate to this style of gameplay to be able to be successful militarily in the later game, but at the same time I can't make it too easy for the hardcore - especially with how units in these later era's have higher combat strengths compared to Vanilla CIV V.

I'll try reducing the level of production/gold increase per unit to 20% and 15% in test games this week, and depending on those results, I might introduce one of these values in next weekends v10.2 update.

I'll probably avoid introducing new unit types for now, as this will take a fair amount of time to balance - and there's other areas of the mod that need more attention at the moment. New units will eventually be added at some point in the future.
 
How about making the first 5 of a unit cost the base amount to build or upgrade and any after that cost more.
 
On of the main downsides to a puppet city is the lack of control over it. While, like you, I mostly keep conquered cities as puppets, at times I will annex them if they are of great value. I noticed that the game doesn't use all of the population in a city if it is a puppet, no more than 66% of the pop seems to work tiles, even when there are plenty of free, useful tiles open. That is another downside.
 
So I captured a 11 pop city. It has no buildings or wonders that add to happiness other than a colloseum. I puppet the thing. I get minus 5 happiness overall. I look in the city screen and notice I get the 10 happy from citizens in puppets. Is this normal? It feels wrong to have next to no ill effect from capturing a city.

Early game it's very difficult to expand rapidly to claim good land and maintain a decent army. Later game unit cost scaling makes it where I can't build units fast enough to run into happy problems and puppets giving the 10 happy for pop (and often containing colloseums) do not decrease happiness much. As much as a single unit in the example case. I'm running +77 happiness. In other words there is no check on late game conquest.

Courthouses don't appear to work as intended. The description reads as though a negative 100 percent modifier is applied. What actually happens is the beakers from population are not used. In my recent game a 11 pop city gets 0 beakers from pop and 5.5 extra beakers for pop (it has a library) and it recieves +10 percent of those beakers. The city would be getting 18.15 beakers if it was not annexed. Unless I'm mistaken on how a courthouse should function as described I should be getting 1.65 beakers 16.5 with a modifier of negative 90 percent (courthouse + library)

Courthouses appear to suffer from the same bug as vanilla. City unhappiness is removed when you build a courthouse in a city. I have 15 cities total yet only have 300 unhappiness from cities. I have exactly 1 annexed city with CH at this time.

I've noticed this as well with Courthouses and Science. When I upload to the ModBrowser later tonight I'll tweak Jails/Courthouses so they're functioning correctly. Also - Unhappiness from puppets will be adjusted so that these levels aren't as low. Thanks for pointing this out. The AI's rate of expansion is also a little bit too high still on Prince/King so this will see a slight adjustment as well.

And yes - Courthouses/Jails still have the vanilla bug for Unhappiness... I'm surprised Firaxis hasn't fixed this yet.
 
I don't really notice this. I do spot one of my puppets with unemployed citizens not working merchant slots. Puppets are on gold focus. They will work the highest gold tiles regardless of actual value.

Edit: I should add that in vanilla puppets will work merchant slots quite often.

Sure you can't control them, but they are still making gold, science, and culture. That's not insignificant. Also capturing cities should not be something that has so little penalty that you can continue to do so indefinitely without issue. I actually like that it's actually a bit easier to manage happiness. The population portion of the happiness equation is enormous. It's just that it's way to easy later on such that anything past theater level happiness building is useless.



You could just add a flat -20 happiness to a courthouse. It would work until firaxis fixed it or time ends.

Some more things I've noticed...
1. Flight is an insanely good tech as it opens up 3 unique lines of units.
2. Paratroopers are stronger than infantry yet cheaper to build.

Flight is quite good - but it's on a different path from most prior military units and it takes a little longer to get to, so there's a bit of a trade-off there. As for Paratroopers/Infantry, they're stronger in vanilla CIV V as well. I should probably make them more expensive to build - but they're not quite as common as Infantry, which make more of an every-game appearance, hence their higher cost at the moment.

That's actually a good suggestion about the Courthouse - I'll try and get that included in a future update until Firaxis fixes the problem. :)
 
Imho, financial trait is far too powerful. Especially when combined with 15% cheaper purchase policy, republic revolution and later with big ben and maybe also 20% cheaper military units purchase .. then, buying stuff is really cheap and for one gold you get far more than one hammer.

And other traits seems to be quite worse compared. Especially the +1 culture - well, maybe it's good for the first some turns but quite soon, the effect is hardly noticeable and there are some policies which also increase city cultury by 1.
Or the industrial trait, well 20% wonder production in the capital - with workshop it's only 12,5% real increase and the advantage lowers by the time through other buildings, which increase production by %, and if building wonders in other cities.

May the one or other trait should become less powerful, but financial is too strong. May change financial trait to +20-30% gold in capital/every city - so it would also lose power by the time through modifications through other buildings.
Another idea would be to add +1 hammer for each engineer slot a building provides for industrious, +1 gold for each merchant slot a building provides for financial and +1 culture for each artist slot a building provides for creative trait.
Spiritual may needs an early boost, like +50% through happiness buildings / all happiness sources
Phil could also need some boost, like a production boost for buildings with specialist slot.

.. however nerf financial

another problem is, that hospitals needs a aqueduct , so only cities at rivers can build hospitals and later the +growth building. And with the +growth building, which you could build if you have local wine ( actually don't know the name ... ) you get quite much food saved after citiy growth and this city becomes a monster ;)

And it's nice to have wonders with +50 xp for melee/mounted units, but especially the +melee xp wonder comes little bit late. Without a GE to boost the wonder, I don't see any chance to build a melee with this starting advantage. The +50xp for mounted units can be used to build super cavalry units, which later become super tanks. And it's possible to be not allowed to build lancer nor cavalry.

And some bonus ressources are too strong, cows with taverns ( at begin ) and stone all the time. Stone unlocks many buildings and creates sowith monster production cities. ( foundry, steamworks, tile production, ... )
Fishes and other sea ressources boost a city maybe also a little bit too strong, even at the begin .. may give docks only +1 hammer, but also lighthouse +1 and maybe seaports another one extra. A well placed early coastal city becomes an early monster city imho a little bit too much.

Maybe have also a look at pagoda preq.

Another trouble building are imho train stations, especially at larger maps. Larger maps allows more cities and sowith more trade and when building/buying a train station for additional 100 trade income, then it isn't a hard decision for what I use the short coal. Also because of the +10 culture per policy.

At policies I find myself always picking tradition first ( + hammer + food/science ) and later by picking policies from all trees, but only go later deeper in the trees. Imho, at begin the +hammers in the capital seems a little bit too strong, besides the 15% purchase ( which is even better than their final ) and I don't think, that it should be allowed to get policies from every tree, everytime without any disadvantage. Likely - unlock 5 policies to be able to pick another tree, unlock 15 policies or one of the deepest one to be able to pick a 3rd tree, unlock 25 policies to be allowed from any tree.
And it's nice, that only one of the deepest policy can be annected and can't switch, but if you get +1 food per specialist first and later halve food per specialist, then the +1 food policy is reseted and you can enact the +2. And the biggest problem I have is, that it isn't mentioned at the +1 food policy, that you can't have the havle food too - indeed, it would lead to some funny results ;) - but it is mentioned at the halve food policy.

Guild hall can't be bought.

Maybe have a look at revolution too. I find myself always picking despotism and later republic/democrazy. And there especially the +1 free policy seems a little bit too strong. But maybe I'm wrong there. However after the first few revolutions I can't understand the given numbers at the revolution points race.

Overall I think, that with the time too much research is generated, because too much population isn't punished and research is more or less tied to population. May decrease rp per pops, when cities hit a certain size, or the civ research is the root of the sum from all city's research to square.. (Xn0^2 + Xn1^2 + ...)^(1/2) --> would benefit small empires with one huge city and punish large empires with rather small cities.. or increase research cost beginning in the medieval slightly up to double at modern techs.
But an increase in cost would punish the late ai further. If I shouldn't be the supreme #1 at the begin of the industrial age, I will be it at the end. At begin I'm not able to expand that fast with even that big army, but they are not able to handle when the game advances. It would be nice, if the ai would be weaker at begin and stronger at the end ... if someone hits a new age , every ai get +1 difficulty lvl ;)

I played now 4 games and it feels more civ than civ 0.5, especially with less/none city states. Don't know if there is any mod, which balance cs a little bit, but default I would disable them ..

great mod !
 
Imho, financial trait is far too powerful. Especially when combined with 15% cheaper purchase policy, republic revolution and later with big ben and maybe also 20% cheaper military units purchase .. then, buying stuff is really cheap and for one gold you get far more than one hammer.

And other traits seems to be quite worse compared. Especially the +1 culture - well, maybe it's good for the first some turns but quite soon, the effect is hardly noticeable and there are some policies which also increase city cultury by 1.
Or the industrial trait, well 20% wonder production in the capital - with workshop it's only 12,5% real increase and the advantage lowers by the time through other buildings, which increase production by %, and if building wonders in other cities.

May the one or other trait should become less powerful, but financial is too strong. May change financial trait to +20-30% gold in capital/every city - so it would also lose power by the time through modifications through other buildings.
Another idea would be to add +1 hammer for each engineer slot a building provides for industrious, +1 gold for each merchant slot a building provides for financial and +1 culture for each artist slot a building provides for creative trait.
Spiritual may needs an early boost, like +50% through happiness buildings / all happiness sources
Phil could also need some boost, like a production boost for buildings with specialist slot.

.. however nerf financial

another problem is, that hospitals needs a aqueduct , so only cities at rivers can build hospitals and later the +growth building. And with the +growth building, which you could build if you have local wine ( actually don't know the name ... ) you get quite much food saved after citiy growth and this city becomes a monster ;)

And it's nice to have wonders with +50 xp for melee/mounted units, but especially the +melee xp wonder comes little bit late. Without a GE to boost the wonder, I don't see any chance to build a melee with this starting advantage. The +50xp for mounted units can be used to build super cavalry units, which later become super tanks. And it's possible to be not allowed to build lancer nor cavalry.

And some bonus ressources are too strong, cows with taverns ( at begin ) and stone all the time. Stone unlocks many buildings and creates sowith monster production cities. ( foundry, steamworks, tile production, ... )
Fishes and other sea ressources boost a city maybe also a little bit too strong, even at the begin .. may give docks only +1 hammer, but also lighthouse +1 and maybe seaports another one extra. A well placed early coastal city becomes an early monster city imho a little bit too much.

Maybe have also a look at pagoda preq.

Another trouble building are imho train stations, especially at larger maps. Larger maps allows more cities and sowith more trade and when building/buying a train station for additional 100 trade income, then it isn't a hard decision for what I use the short coal. Also because of the +10 culture per policy.

At policies I find myself always picking tradition first ( + hammer + food/science ) and later by picking policies from all trees, but only go later deeper in the trees. Imho, at begin the +hammers in the capital seems a little bit too strong, besides the 15% purchase ( which is even better than their final ) and I don't think, that it should be allowed to get policies from every tree, everytime without any disadvantage. Likely - unlock 5 policies to be able to pick another tree, unlock 15 policies or one of the deepest one to be able to pick a 3rd tree, unlock 25 policies to be allowed from any tree.
And it's nice, that only one of the deepest policy can be annected and can't switch, but if you get +1 food per specialist first and later halve food per specialist, then the +1 food policy is reseted and you can enact the +2. And the biggest problem I have is, that it isn't mentioned at the +1 food policy, that you can't have the havle food too - indeed, it would lead to some funny results ;) - but it is mentioned at the halve food policy.

Guild hall can't be bought.

Maybe have a look at revolution too. I find myself always picking despotism and later republic/democrazy. And there especially the +1 free policy seems a little bit too strong. But maybe I'm wrong there. However after the first few revolutions I can't understand the given numbers at the revolution points race.

Overall I think, that with the time too much research is generated, because too much population isn't punished and research is more or less tied to population. May decrease rp per pops, when cities hit a certain size, or the civ research is the root of the sum from all city's research to square.. (Xn0^2 + Xn1^2 + ...)^(1/2) --> would benefit small empires with one huge city and punish large empires with rather small cities.. or increase research cost beginning in the medieval slightly up to double at modern techs.
But an increase in cost would punish the late ai further. If I shouldn't be the supreme #1 at the begin of the industrial age, I will be it at the end. At begin I'm not able to expand that fast with even that big army, but they are not able to handle when the game advances. It would be nice, if the ai would be weaker at begin and stronger at the end ... if someone hits a new age , every ai get +1 difficulty lvl ;)

I played now 4 games and it feels more civ than civ 0.5, especially with less/none city states. Don't know if there is any mod, which balance cs a little bit, but default I would disable them ..

great mod !

That's quite a bit to chew on. :) I'll look over this tonight and post some of my thoughts regarding various balance issues sometime on the weekend. I'm also working on a broader post that details difficulty levels in NiGHTS a bit more regarding what types of bonuses (and maluses) the AI gets and why (in reference to your other post) - especially when compared to vanilla CIV V.

Thanks for posting - it's always really interesting and valuable to see viewpoints from players newer to the mod.
 
financial and gold are way overpowered. even the incrimental increase in unit cost based on how many you already have is way too small, it needs to be at least double what it is (seems to be 10-20% increase per number of unit?).


Also, more government types! discovering the governments in the actual tech tree is nice, but the old requirements were nice too. specifically the 12 original cities for republic.
 
I am happy to meet mod of Civilization NiGHTS.

I play a few times, I notice that;
Usually, a empire which I choised has 1st technology of 'Mining'.
Why?

So I made list.
1319902008.jpg

http://pub.ne.jp/Norisuke_dayon/image/user/1319902008.jpg
(Sorry. I can't understand how to past a image.)
'Mining' is 7. It is too much.

I propose changing plan.

A Russia :From Mining to Agriculture 
(Reason)
Russian soldiers is gathered in the field.(It is black humor at Japan.)

B Spain :From Mining to Agriculture 
(Reason)
For me, Spain is agrarian country.

How do you think?
 
Sorry. I occupied a contiguous comment.

And I usually play with setup of 'strong barbalians'.
At counter barbalians, the treat of Charismatic is effectual.

So I made list.
1319902046.jpg

http://pub.ne.jp/Norisuke_dayon/image/user/1319902046.jpg
(Sorry. I can't understand how to past a image.)
After then, I played France which has Charismatic and Creative.

I feel that :France is too strong. The speed to gain culture point is too fast.
So I propose changing plan.

A From Charismatic to Philosophical
(Reason)
I show my respect for René Descartes and Albert Schweitzer.

B From Charismatic to Imperialistic
(Reason)
At the 16-20 century, France has colonial imperialism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire

How do you think?
 
Sorry. I occupied a contiguous comment.

And I usually play with setup of 'strong barbalians'.
At counter barbalians, the treat of Charismatic is effectual.

So I made list.
1319902046.jpg

http://pub.ne.jp/Norisuke_dayon/image/user/1319902046.jpg
(Sorry. I can't understand how to past a image.)
After then, I played France which has Charismatic and Creative.

I feel that :France is too strong. The speed to gain culture point is too fast.
So I propose changing plan.

A From Charismatic to Philosophical
(Reason)
I show my respect for René Descartes and Albert Schweitzer.

B From Charismatic to Imperialistic
(Reason)
At the 16-20 century, France has colonial imperialism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire

How do you think?

Some impressive work here. :) I agree with your assessment, that when played to type, France is probably a bit overpowered at the moment, (especially when they're under human control). I'd like to keep them Creative for now, but a change from Charismatic to Imperialistic makes sense, and I think I'll implement this in v10.7.

EDIT: I'm away from my modding computer at the moment and can't check this - but is there already a Creative/Imperialistic combo among the Leaders? Either way, I'll tweak France to be Imperialistic plus another trait that doesn't result in an already established combination.

Thanks for posting Norisuke.
 
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