No Modding Tools, Please!

[Dale]

I know what you're implying here, but it's bull; alot of work was done by glider getting your buggy code to stop breaking things, the process of getting DCM to stop causing crashes took literally months. So many of the pieces in RevDCM, just didn't work right and took a lot of work fixing them up, or getting them to play nice together. This isn't trivial packaging either dale, especially the parts about fixing broken code. Do to many of the more glaring issues, I ended up having to teach myself C++ and python from google, and getting lots of help along the way on forums from those like Emperor Fool. Currently I spend roughly 20+ hours a week working on RevDCM, and alot of that time is spent hammering out code.

I mean in the respect that most high level software is a package of varying peoples work, (no one sits down and writes 1GB programs themselves), sure, but as you are implying no. Also the main component in RevDCM is Revolutions, which along with Barbarian Civs was coded and created almost entirely by jdog, who is a developer of RevDCM.

Ease off mate, if you read an earlier post I said that mod packagers are not a negative thing. Soren Johnson also talks positively about Mod Packagers and how they came to the forfront in Civ4 modding to provide some of the biggest and best Civ4 mods. But to call RevDCM innovative is a mistake. RevDCM is about packaging together a number of popular mods. Regardless of the code changing to get it to work all together, it is still using other people's mods combined to a total mod.

 

[Dale]

That is the biggest lie in this entire thread; and that's not to demean the rest of you guys, there were some pretty epic ones.

But, I guess you don't really understand, do you? It's not like Jdog wrote the Better AI and Unofficial Patch from scratch; or anything. And of course, Revolutions. Obviously, Jdog secretly stole that mod from you, yes?

Your statement is a complete load of bullocks and I DEMAND you issue an apology to Jdog, Glider1 & Phungus. You can insult me, or anyone else, but flat out lies; well you might as well state that the sky is a bright green today.

RevDCM from their explanation of what the mod is (they even admit it themselves):

To integrate high quality mods onto the back of the brilliant Revolutions mod that add strategic richness to BTS, compliment Revolutions and yet still make for a compact download size. At all times basic BTS game experience and stability is it's reference guiding development.

Besides, it packagers a number of innovations together to create a total mod. So are you saying that Jdog, Phungas and Glider created every component of RevDCM? If you are then you are seriously deluded.

 

[Afforess]

So a packaged mod is a mod that includes any feature not of their making, even if 80% of the content is new? I would say that the only non-packaged mods according to your standard are mod-components, which are generally unplayable. That would make FFH2 and Ryhe's and Fall packaged mods too!

 

[PieceOfMind]

I could be wrong but it seems to me that combining various extensive mods is often more difficult (from a programmer's perspective) than creating fairly isolated mods. What you're saying Dale, sounds like you imply the opposite (that Code Packagers have an easier job) and that will probably offend a fair number of modders. RevDCM is a pretty bad example, really. Its creation and development can hardly be summed up by calling it a "package mod". It would be like, IMO, calling DCM a rule tweak.

 

[The_J]

Anybody here interested in buying some baseball clubs

?

-> calm down guys.

 

[Afforess]

Lol, nice smiley.

I think you would make better sales with pitchforks and torches though.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Anybody here interested in buying some baseball clubs

?

-> calm down guys.

Can you buy them by the dozen?

I think we're going a tad off topic too.

 

[Takhisis]

I might have a go at making a pitchfork/torch smiley next week.

 

[SJSerio]

I understand that. What I'm saying is that if people are forced to learn how to do it with just a text editor, they could probably get good enough to start making more elaborate mods much faster.

I don't want to learn how to code... I want to put more focus on balance and design. There is a big difference. I want to be able to make simple mods easily without having to sort through lines of cumbersome code. I don't want to waste time trying to learn computer language. I would rather leave that part to the experts who enjoy that sort of thing. I am a designer, not a coder. There is a big difference!

 

[Dale]

Come on guys. I did not say mod packaging was lesser. I said there was indeed a high skill level needed. And Afforess, it IS a package mod. Why?

1. Revolution is a separate mod.
2. DCM is a separate mod.
3. Better AI is a separate mod.
4. Influence driven war is a separate mod.
5. and so on
6. and so on

There's no point me continuing the list, you would get the point by now. RevDCM is a package of a number of separate mods. The innovation is the separate mods themselves. Revolutions is innovative. DCM is innovative. Better AI is innovative.

Say what you will, RevDCM is a package mod. Technically DCM is a package mod too as I developed most of the components of DCM as separate innovations.

 

[Dale]

So a packaged mod is a mod that includes any feature not of their making, even if 80% of the content is new? I would say that the only non-packaged mods according to your standard are mod-components, which are generally unplayable. That would make FFH2 and Ryhe's and Fall packaged mods too!

The components of RevDCM were innovated separately. Sure by the same people, but still created separately. If I wanted to, I could get Better AI by itself. I could get Revolutions by itself. RevDCM puts them together into a nice little package for ease of use.

 

[Takhisis]

can we get back on topic?
Merits of an all-encompassing editor vs. all-encompassing scripting and text-editing vs. system merging both. Discuss.

 

[SJSerio]

The following quote is taken from the thread Unprecedented Modding Tools

I agree with EF all the way here. While the whitespace still bothers me to this day in python; and I always forget the stupid colon at the end of if's, I still can see why it is so attractive.

You mention having problems with syntax (forgetting the "stupid colon") and you want the rest of us to learn how to code in order to mod?

...

 

[Afforess]

Come on guys. I did not say mod packaging was lesser. I said there was indeed a high skill level needed. And Afforess, it IS a package mod. Why?

1. Revolution is a separate mod.
2. DCM is a separate mod.
3. Better AI is a separate mod.
4. Influence driven war is a separate mod.
5. and so on
6. and so on

There's no point me continuing the list, you would get the point by now. RevDCM is a package of a number of separate mods. The innovation is the separate mods themselves. Revolutions is innovative. DCM is innovative. Better AI is innovative.

Say what you will, RevDCM is a package mod. Technically DCM is a package mod too as I developed most of the components of DCM as separate innovations.

Oh really?

The Mod Packager takes bits of other people's modding, combines them all together to form a new experience. I'm not being negative, some of these mods are really good.

First off, you begged the question. If some of them are really good, then some of them are really bad; yes? Secondly, you used the qualifier "I'm not being negative", which is just the equivalent of saying "No Offense" right before you tell someone they suck. Now, this last part takes the cake:

Whereas most of MY modding was producing new concepts for Civ. Combat Mod, Achievements, Ranged Bombardment, Air Missions, etc. There isn't many people who can do that.

So if there are only a few people that can do that, and this is a good thing, then all other modders must not be as good.

Dale, I really respect you, especially for all your work, but don't even try to pull this past me. I'm the master at being condescending.

 

[Afforess]

The following quote is taken from the thread Unprecedented Modding Tools



You mention having problems with syntax (forgetting the "stupid colon") and you want the rest of us to learn how to code in order to mod?

...

Yes, with python. I primarily code in C++. Am I your golden standard now? If I have trouble, then everyone else will?

I'm not sure how this is relevant, this thread has nothing to do with me; it's about modding tools.

 

[EdCase]

I have been known to use the Morrowind Construction Set to tweak a few things in my heavily modded game to my liking. I am certainly not a modder. For this I am grateful that Bethesda released such a powerful tool. A quick perusal of the literally hundreds of mods that get somehow posted on modding sites "created" by people with even less talent than me (and none of my stunning personality traits) would probably advise most other companies not to do the same, considering the sheer dross that buries many sites. There are some great works, a lot of average but decent works and endless rubbish. As Sturgeon said, 90% of everything is crap and, with proper modding tools, the 90% dross is now suddenly in the hands of those who don't even realise this.

Using an SDK or hand coding rather than an editor doesn't mean you spin gold. It can simply mean you have a highly polished turd.

There are countless examples of this across a multitude of games.

The reverse is also true.

Want an analogy. I can handwrite a dictionary. Does that mean I can craft a story ?

 

[ainwood]

can we get back on topic?

Moderator Action: That would be nice.

If people want to take the other discussion to another thread, that's fine by me. As long as they don't get so personal.

 

[Afforess]

I agree with takhisis and Ainwood, we should get back On topic.

The stated reasons for not likely "user-friendly" mod tools is that often, that's where the modding ends, with the tools, and we are restricted by them; a la, Civ3.

The stated reasons for "user-friendly" mod tools would that it would lower the entry barrier to modding.

Seeing how Civ4 didn't have easy to use editors, and had wildly successful mods... I rest my case.

 

[Dale]

If some of them are really good, then some of them are really bad; yes?

I haven't tried all mods, so I am unqualified to state all of them are good.

Secondly, you used the qualifier "I'm not being negative", which is just the equivalent of saying "No Offense" right before you tell someone they suck.

I was preceding anticipated flames due to misconstruing what I was saying.

So if there are only a few people that can do that, and this is a good thing, then all other modders must not be as good.

Dale, I really respect you, especially for all your work, but don't even try to pull this past me. I'm the master at being condescending.

You're putting words into my mouth. I did not say "this is a good thing".

Sign of a desperate man to prove ANY point is to imply comments into your opponent's comments. Something you're doing. Please keep to the point, not vague implications which were never stated.

EDIT:
Sorry Ainwood, you posted after I started writing this post.

 

[Takhisis]

I'm glad to see that sanity is being restored.

I agree with takhisis and Ainwood, we should get back On topic.

The stated reasons for not likely "user-friendly" mod tools is that often, that's where the modding ends, with the tools, and we are restricted by them; a la, Civ3.

The stated reasons for "user-friendly" mod tools would that it would lower the entry barrier to modding.

Seeing how Civ4 didn't have easy to use editors, and had wildly successful mods... I rest my case.

What about my third option: both. Have an editor for casual modder dummies (e.g. me) but still allow for manually editing the game with XML editors/notepad/whatever you prefer. I still think that a map maker would at least be useful.
For what it's worth, if you start checking in the civ3 utility programs section you'll find that terrain files can be edited manually using hex editors. So terrain types that you can't put together in the game editor, such as Sea tiles just alongside the coast, are feasible.