No more Pangea Scripts

It will be interesting to see what map choices we get, presumably TSL will be more difficult too.

Personally, I usually stuck to continents anyway (Pangea always felt weird to me), but I can understand the discontent for those who love a Pangea. Not that we know anything for sure yet of course, the slightly premature outrage remains strong it seems. :lol:
 
As for my tastes, this is fine. I pretty much never choose Pangea for my games. And since Civ IV introduced Terra map script, that was one of the most fun maps to play.

Then Civ V did not have it at first, and when it was introduced, it appeared that Civ V’s systems turned Terra script irrelevant. When you finally had the ability to get there, no new cities were needed, so this map script was totally pointless.

The nature of Civ VI, sadly, made this map script pointless as well. By the time you get there, you’ve basically already won the game on your old landmass.

But will Civ VII make Terra maps at least as great as they were in IV?
 
As for my tastes, this is fine. I pretty much never choose Pangea for my games. And since Civ IV introduced Terra map script, that was one of the most fun maps to play.

Then Civ V did not have it at first, and when it was introduced, it appeared that Civ V’s systems turned Terra script irrelevant. When you finally had the ability to get there, no new cities were needed, so this map script was totally pointless.

The nature of Civ VI, sadly, made this map script pointless as well. By the time you get there, you’ve basically already won the game on your old landmass.

But will Civ VII make Terra maps at least as great as they were in IV?
I could easily see it solving that problem with Ages

1. you won’t win the game in age 1 (before the map expansion is available)

2. the wide v tall of civ 5 was for the whole game…. what if Age 2 mechanics favored wide… and then Age 3 favored tall (may have to give up the empire, new AI players appear as empire collapses)
 
There’s a screenshot of game set up with a map option set to “Continents Plus.”

My guess is "continents plus" means bigger continents. So maybe all civs start on a single large continent with another empty continent out there to explore in the Exploration Age. A standard map might be several medium continents with civs spread out on say 2 continents, with the 3rd continent empty for exploration in the Exploration Age.

Yeah, I definitely get the impression that civ7 will eliminate the traditional pangea map in favor of different versions of a "terra map". But I think we need to remember the reason for the change. civ7 is all about making the middle and late game interesting. Exploration is a big part of civ. Civ7 will try to keep exploration relevant in the middle game by having an unexplored continent in order to keep the middle game more interesting and fun. The fact is that pangea maps lose that exploration part since civs fill up the map and there is no other landmass to explore. If I am right that "continents plus" refers to all civs starting on the same large continent, I think that will serve the same function as pangea map by having that same tension of civs being on the same continent where they can attack each other in the Antiquity Age. So the pangea map is not really gone, just redesigned.
 
This is the potential of the Ages system. I don't envisage that the base game will make the most of this potential, honestly, but there is so much scope for different dynamics in each Age, dynamics that require different strategies and styles of play. It's exciting!

I do think it's important that they retain a good variety of map types as well though.
 
In past games, “Continents Plus” was the Continents script with more islands throughout.

Thanks. Doesn't mean that they can't change it for civ7.

I guess we don't really know. Ultimately, I think it is clear that civ7 will focus on exploring in the Exploration Age. That is what that age is all about. Now, whether that just means a terra map and no pangea map or maybe some variation on the pangea map, we shall see. You could do a pangea map where part of the continent is off limits until the Exploration Age.
 
It will be interesting to see what map choices we get, presumably TSL will be more difficult too.
I'm cautiously optimistic, if modding is at least at civ6 level.
 
I don't get why you guys keep explaining it like a pangea that opens up to more exploration during an artbitrary and gamey age change or completely forced terra mechanics are some unfathomable concept. We understand, some of us* don't want every map to be a terra map or some completely gamey and unhistoric pangea+ hybrid.
What's unhistorical about exploration being dependent on technological development?

It worked like that in previous Civ games by blocking travel over oceans. Applying the same concept to land doesn't sound like a stretch.

But I agree I'm sceptical of hard locks when soft ones have worked fine until now.
 
I've already said elsewhere good luck with TSL Earth thanks to forced Civ-changing.

This maps hint just compounds that for me.
For people that like to explore, TSL has always been the most boring mode to play anyway. If exploration is to be favored more in civ VII, it makes sense than concerns about TSL aren‘t in the focus.
 
What's unhistorical about exploration being dependent on technological development?
You're asking me what is unhistorical about exploration of the map being bound by arbitrary crisis and age mechanics that all players experience at the same time that prevent players from getting ahead on technology and artifically seperates campaigns into three distinct rounds?

It worked like that in previous Civ games by blocking travel over oceans. Applying the same concept to land doesn't sound like a stretch.

no it didn't work anything like this in previous civs because there was no age system and the map did not literally expand as the game progressed

But I agree I'm sceptical of hard locks when soft ones have worked fine until now.

you figured out the problem
 
no it didn't work anything like this in previous civs because there was no age system and the map did not literally expand as the game progressed
Expand as in not existing before or just not discoverable due to ocean limitations? So far nothing to suggest one over the other has been said, I am pretty sure.
 
You're asking me what is unhistorical about exploration of the map being bound by arbitrary crisis and age mechanics that all players experience at the same time that prevent players from getting ahead on technology and artifically seperates campaigns into three distinct rounds?
I'm not even sure what the point of this is.

Game mechanics for a historical 4x are always artificial and abstract. What else could they be?

Soft locks on growth as well as catch up mechanics have been a part of Civ games... scrap that, they've been a part of games, full stop.

You could apply the word "arbitrary" and "artificial" to just about any mechanic in any civ game to discredit it.
 
I'm not even sure what the point of this is.

Game mechanics for a historical 4x are always artificial and abstract. What else could they be?
did anyone argue otherwise?

you literally asked me how it wasn't historical and now you're confused the question was answered? Even as an abstraction of history, the map literally expanding between eras is silly.

Soft locks on growth as well as catch up mechanics have been a part of Civ games... scrap that, they've been a part of games, full stop.

You could apply the word "arbitrary" and "artificial" to just about any mechanic in any civ game to discredit it.

ok
 
It does still. There are ways of ensuring a First Age civ free area to explore on a map that becomes a true Pangea in the Second Age.

Basically all you need some land terrain that is effectively impassable in First Age and passable in the Second Age.

This is purely a cosmetic distinction. A conveniently impassable mountain chain or deep desert is just as forced as a conveniently inpassable ocean.

Terra is one of my favorite map scripts, one of the things that kept it interesting was the occasional geographic accident where you might be able to bounce off of a Faeroes-Iceland-Greenland chain and reach the new world early.

Or realizing a rival could.

It will be interesting to see what map choices we get, presumably TSL will be more difficult too.

Personally, I usually stuck to continents anyway (Pangea always felt weird to me), but I can understand the discontent for those who love a Pangea. Not that we know anything for sure yet of course, the slightly premature outrage remains strong it seems. :lol:

Given this and some of the other mechanics TSL is most likely gone. A true TSL map would allow for the possibility of Japan, Aztecs, Zulus, Eqyptians and Germans on the map at the same time

This is obviously impossible with the Age Of Exploration mechanic.

As for my tastes, this is fine. I pretty much never choose Pangea for my games. And since Civ IV introduced Terra map script, that was one of the most fun maps to play.

Then Civ V did not have it at first, and when it was introduced, it appeared that Civ V’s systems turned Terra script irrelevant. When you finally had the ability to get there, no new cities were needed, so this map script was totally pointless.

The nature of Civ VI, sadly, made this map script pointless as well. By the time you get there, you’ve basically already won the game on your old landmass.

But will Civ VII make Terra maps at least as great as they were in IV?

I mean at this point they are ALL Terra map scripts, with one of the fun wrinkles removed (see above) because we have gone from a sandbox to a forced narrative

That's a great idea. After a crises you don't just rebuild what you had before, but you have to pivot towards a completely different way of doing thing. Do you stubbornly keep things as they were before, because change is too costly? Or do you nimbly adapt to the new optimal? This seems like a really exciting choice to give the player, and one that can easily have a natural rubber-band element to it.

The cost here is removing the sandbox element, which has always been a core Civ principal.

You know how you keep the sandbox element and have a completely different experience?

By starting a new game

Do you know what the difference between a sandbox that lets you start in a later era and a forced narrative that does what amounts to a soft restart at era changes?

The former isn’t forced on you

In past games, “Continents Plus” was the Continents script with more islands throughout.

This is by far my favorite script. It gives you a sandbox with exploration potential. It also allows a situation where you find a new continent with civs that may be disadvantaged and you get to decide whether to orey on them or not. Or you are on the back foot and now the challenge is can you pull otf an Adowa.

Or we just force a narrative and you are always Cortez.

I'm cautiously optimistic, if modding is at least at civ6 level.

Each dev reveal is saying to me that we are replacing a sandbox with a curated forced narrative. This will likely put some restrictions on what modders can do.

Things like mandatory civ switching and era crises, as well as doing a soft restart are probably baked in pretty deep
 
This is purely a cosmetic distinction. A conveniently impassable mountain chain or deep desert is just as forced as a conveniently inpassable ocean.

Terra is one of my favorite map scripts, one of the things that kept it interesting was the occasional geographic accident where you might be able to bounce off of a Faeroes-Iceland-Greenland chain and reach the new world early.

Or realizing a rival could.



Given this and some of the other mechanics TSL is most likely gone. A true TSL map would allow for the possibility of Japan, Aztecs, Zulus, Eqyptians and Germans on the map at the same time

This is obviously impossible with the Age Of Exploration mechanic.



I mean at this point they are ALL Terra map scripts, with one of the fun wrinkles removed (see above) because we have gone from a sandbox to a forced narrative



The cost here is removing the sandbox element, which has always been a core Civ principal.

You know how you keep the sandbox element and have a completely different experience?

By starting a new game

Do you know what the difference between a sandbox that lets you start in a later era and a forced narrative that does what amounts to a soft restart at era changes?

The former isn’t forced on you



This is by far my favorite script. It gives you a sandbox with exploration potential. It also allows a situation where you find a new continent with civs that may be disadvantaged and you get to decide whether to orey on them or not. Or you are on the back foot and now the challenge is can you pull otf an Adowa.

Or we just force a narrative and you are always Cortez.



Each dev reveal is saying to me that we are replacing a sandbox with a curated forced narrative. This will likely put some restrictions on what modders can do.

Things like mandatory civ switching and era crises, as well as doing a soft restart are probably baked in pretty deep
MOD WISE
You can play a 1 era game (and mod that 1 era to go from agriculture to atomic weapons)

You could have each civ only go to a copy of itself and probably mod the crisis/Transition to be nearly meaningless.

Map Wise

If they have an option for “fill in new parts of the map with new civs” that would take care of the “We don’t want to be cortez”. problem.

I’m pretty sure there will be maps where starting civs are separated by oceans as well, (start with 3 ocean separated “continents”, each with civs…in exploration age add 3 more)
 
Each dev reveal is saying to me that we are replacing a sandbox with a curated forced narrative. This will likely put some restrictions on what modders can do.

Things like mandatory civ switching and era crises, as well as doing a soft restart are probably baked in pretty deep

Pretty sure the conditions to unlock a civ are not hardcoded but exposed in a database, else we (modders) would not be able to add new civs, and one of the few mentions of modding in the interviews was about adding new civs.
 
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