No range units challenge

[RedRover57]

I don't think I would turtle until Gunpowder with France (or America or Ottomans) since you can take down several neighbors with spears/pikes/cats while still beelining for Education. Once you have Education and the tech lead then quickly research the bottom of the tree. This does cause a delay in your warmongering during the window between pikes/trebs and muskets/cannons (which would normally not be an issue with crossbows available to continue forward), but still manageable.

BTW I think you have to also disallow siege/planes in order to make this a reasonably difficult challenge on Immortal. It doesn't seem all that difficult to just eliminate the archers/bowmen line. It just takes a bit longer, but still a guaranteed victory once you have the tech lead.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Here is the masochistic version for you!
I was under the same impression before I tried. And failed twice. Even with range units (cats are so bad...) this turned out to be much harder than I thought. Early wars are stupidly painful.

 

[Homusubi]

All I can say to this is that Japan's UUs are not OP. The Zero is almost useless given when it appears, and the Samurai, although a great unit for those who like complex strategy, is beleaguered by it being in a particularly bad part of the tech tree which goes obsolete quickly. G&K improved this slightly, but not by much. Don't get me wrong, I like Japan. It's just that the UUs are not the reason why. I'd like to use Samurai more, but it feels very restrictive having to beeline something right up to Medieval and declaring war at just the right time.

 

[krc]

I don't think I would turtle until Gunpowder with France (or America or Ottomans) since you can take down several neighbors with spears/pikes/cats while still beelining for Education. Once you have Education and the tech lead then quickly research the bottom of the tree. This does cause a delay in your warmongering during the window between pikes/trebs and muskets/cannons (which would normally not be an issue with crossbows available to continue forward), but still manageable.

I've tried a second time as France, and I agree. Certainly swords/pikes/cats is doable; you just have to take extra cats along and/or be very careful where you place them. Even a relatively small city with two archers can eliminate a catapult in one turn. But the exercise of trying this has been useful, since I now know that I don't have to rely as heavily on the archer line as I have in the past. Maybe now I also have to think about whether the horseman line is good for anything....

 

[The Pilgrim]

But the exercise of trying this has been useful, since I now know that I don't have to rely as heavily on the archer line as I have in the past.

That's funny. Because I come to the exact opposite conclusions. I haven't realized how crucial ranged units are. I thought it has more do to with my play style, personal preference and taking the path of least resistance.

 

[krc]

That's funny. Because I come to the exact opposite conclusions. I haven't realized how crucial ranged units are. I thought it has more do to with my play style, personal preference and taking the path of least resistance.

I should probably clarify: I still think that ranged units are the most effective military force up until they become gatling guns. However, since the last patch, gatling guns are definitely less desirable. They seem to be very fragile and often don't last long enough to become machine guns. And I hate to see highly promoted crossbows get killed shortly after they upgrade to gatling guns.

I used to think, however, that there was no real alternative, because the catapults and trebuchets were themselves so fragile in the early ages. I now think I have a better idea how to keep the catapults alive and functioning -- and useful -- during early wars. (Getting them the "cover" promotion is important, and tactical placement is critical.) So I can now put together a more balanced army in the early eras, by mixing both the archer and siege lines with perhaps a few more melee. This means that I can enter later eras with cannons (and later, artillery) that are already highly promoted, keep the gatling guns back on defense until they can get upgraded to machine guns, and thus keep conquering more consistently through all eras.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Thanks for clarification. I understand better now. Maybe I'm not the best tactician, but my cats and trebs keep getting thrashed and I find very little use for them before cannons. Not many survive till that point. At which I just mass produce cannons with double promotion and level them up even more before they upgrade. Melee are only good as meatshields and provide little to no offensive power.

 

[budweiser]

Someone said keep your siege in rough terrain to help keep them alive. It seems to work OK.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Someone doesn't know siege units don't get defensive bonuses from terrain.

 

[budweiser]

Someone doesn't know siege units don't get defensive bonuses from terrain.

Does AI targeting favor flat land?

 

[Browd]

Yeah, maybe the AI doesn't know seige doesn't get defensive terrain bonuses. So they target your pike on the plains tile.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Does AI targeting favor flat land?

I don't think so. Don't know, to be honest, but I'll be surprised if that's the case. It does favor my cats and trebs though. Which, of course, I whine about, yet it's a great thing. Ironically enough I do the same.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Yeah, maybe the AI doesn't know seige doesn't get defensive terrain bonuses. So they target your pike on the plains tile.

I never have thought about that. I position melee in rough terrain on purpose, but I might revise my approach.

Nah... when I'm thinking about it, I mostly place siege on hills too. Dunno. I'll try having damaged pikes on flat tiles more. We'll see how this goes.

 

[Browd]

It's all about the experimentation, right?

 

[budweiser]

It's all about the experimentation, right?

Mostly.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I experimented so much and worked so little in last couple of days, I really really need to take a break.

Seriously, after this challenge I have no desire whatsoever to mess around with siege. Don't want anything but my precious archers! Deity CB rushes seem so easy compared to immortal swords+cats+pikes. Just silly.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

japanese trebs/catas are quite nice. if they arent killed in 1 turn you are at least guaranteed 1 full strength shot. cover is also awesome if they last long enough.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Pretty big if.

 

[Matthew.]

Sending in a pre-damaged melee unit seems to do the trick for me. I usually run with a minimum of 3-4 siege units. If one does get damaged, the 2 or 3 others in place are enough to drop the city in the next turn.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Pretty big if.

works best to get them promo'd on weak/small cities. if you can get 2-3 in place in the same turn (w/melee units in front) it can only target one of them. w/japan 3 trebs with 2-3 samurais at a doorstep will take that city in 2 turns, easily a def 15-20 city in 1 turn. and be sure and check to see if that civ has taken tradition or the pantheon that give bonus city attack str. that burned me a couple times. city attack bonus plus one comp bow took out trebs in 1 turn pretty much every time.