Noble help?

[yahn]

Well, which cities should I have used for cottages? My capitol and the coast city? How do you know when you should make a city a GP factory or a cottage city? I realize that I made a mistake going so wonder happy, so if I hadn't have done that I could have probably have played it a lot better. I realize I could have done a better job of placement. I see where I made my mistakes. I'm getting what everyone is saying about having a week military, but I still don't see where I should have put all these cottages. I really don't see any place besides my capitol and maybe the coast see that could have had cottages.

Also, when do you stop building up your army and start building improvements to the city like libraries, granaries, courthouses, et cetera. I thought since I had none of the resources for the market place it wouldn't be a good investment early on. I probably should have been able to have them by 1000AD, though.

Do you just build your army until you're in the red and then build improvements to try to counter that? Or do you just build a certain amount of units? I want to get an early attack going so I can make my games a lot easier, but before I was too busy going wonder happy and not building my armies.

What about with cities? I was trying to keep science at 100% thats why I put some of those cities around a lot of resources. So I could get the most out of them and keep science at 100%. I've seen a lot of people say you only need to keep science at 60%, though. What do you think?

The strategy I was going for was to get axes quickly and ax rush Cathy, then quickly get cats and go right after Biz. But it took me a while to get axes and it all went down hill.

edit:
I'm trying to find out how someone else would have played this, so I can see what I did wrong.

 

[LucyDuke]

Close stone and marble are a wonder addict's cokehead roommate. It's too much temptation. In that case, though, it's easier to justify wonders. It's when it starts interfering with more important things that it becomes a problem... like when you neglect your military. I'm a compulsive builder but I'm playing a game right now as Cyrus on an overcrowded Pangaea map to break my habits. It's working like a charm. Good defense is absolutely essential, especially if you've got wonders to protect, and the old saying goes a good offense is the best defense. Pick a target and it'll be a lot easier to stay in the military mindset. If you think Catherine is gearing up for war, start pumping out Axemen and beat her to the punch. Don't divert your tech to get Monotheism when you need Bronze Working!

City specialization, like those above me said, is not about using specialists. Something that can be very helpful in the planning process is using Alt+S to place signs on your map. Label your cities. The city you plant in the hilly terrain with nearby iron is a production city, place a sign that says "hammers" (or whatever) and mine the hell out of those hills. You might need a few farms to feed the population, but that's a knack you'll develop. The riverside city with gems is a commerce city, place a sign that says "bank" and cottage spam it. Don't build markets in the hammers cities unless you're really hurting for the happiness. The signs help you keep focused surprisingly well. Alt+S again to get out of the sign mode.

Religions are a lot like wonders - an excellent distraction with mediocre payoff. It's better to capture a holy city than to found your own (I can't believe I'm saying this, but try it out and you'll see.) In settler and chieftain games, you'll found all 7 and think it's the way to go. When you get to noble, it can be worth it to grab one or two, but do not divert your tech path to get them. If they're on the way, sure, but do not neglect iron working to found islam, or your holy cities will soon be someone else's holy cities. It's a hard habit to break, I know, but you have to just let it go.

Rivers are great. The fresh water provides health to the city. Like you said, they're connected more readily. Also, riverside tiles provide +1 gold. Riverside tiles are excellent for cottaging.

The first thing you should build in your capitol is a worker. The first thing you should research is the tech that will allow you to hook up your first resources. I never, ever, ever used to build a worker until my city had grown at least to pop=3, just like you, because early growth seemed critical. The thing is, though, if you get that worker out right away, your early growth will be much faster when it finally gets underway, that you'll come out better in the end. It's important to improve the tiles you're going to be working, because you're going to be working them anyway, and if they're improved, they're much more useful. Your techs should focus on what you have to work with. Forget religion (unless your circumstance is unusual - starting with mysticism and a gold mine next to the capitol, for example) and tech to use your resources. If you've got cows, get to animal husbandry and hook up the cows. Hinduism does not take advantage of cows.

Your science rate will dictate your expansion rate. Try to keep your science at a comfortable rate, say 70%, and don't build cities until you've got the infrastructure to keep your science rate where you've set it. In effect, your first three cities will drag your science rate down to (for example) 60% to break even. Don't build your next city until your economy has grown to break even at 70% science. Build a new city, drop science to 60%, and develop the economy (build cottages) until you're at 70% science again. The numbers will vary but that's the general idea.

If you want, I'll play a bit of your save later today to demonstrate what I'm saying. I'm way below the level of a lot of people around here, but I know exactly where you're coming from and how to get out of there.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

Well, which cities should I have used for cottages? My capitol and the coast city? How do you know when you should make a city a GP factory or a cottage city? I realize that I made a mistake going so wonder happy, so if I hadn't have done that I could have probably have played it a lot better. I realize I could have done a better job of placement. I see where I made my mistakes. I'm getting what everyone is saying about having a week military, but I still don't see where I should have put all these cottages. I really don't see any place besides my capitol and maybe the coast see that could have had cottages.

Also, when do you stop building up your army and start building improvements to the city like libraries, granaries, courthouses, et cetera. I thought since I had none of the resources for the market place it wouldn't be a good investment early on. I probably should have been able to have them by 1000AD, though.

Do you just build your army until you're in the red and then build improvements to try to counter that? Or do you just build a certain amount of units? I want to get an early attack going so I can make my games a lot easier, but before I was too busy going wonder happy and not building my armies.

What about with cities? I was trying to keep science at 100% thats why I put some of those cities around a lot of resources. So I could get the most out of them and keep science at 100%. I've seen a lot of people say you only need to keep science at 60%, though. What do you think?

The strategy I was going for was to get axes quickly and ax rush Cathy, then quickly get cats and go right after Biz. But it took me a while to get axes and it all went down hill.

edit:
I'm trying to find out how someone else would have played this, so I can see what I did wrong.

Your cityplacemant isn't bad. as a rule of thumb, grasland and floodplains are good for cottages. ussually one city builds an army. your production city. wich will needs as many farms as possible as needed to work mines, quarries. in the beginning you build an archer and a setler and send it out to found a new city. the citie with the best production builds a barracks and then an army. I try at least one archer and perhaps 2 or 3 chariots, otherwise one axe near every city for barb protection. the othe cities should focus on infrasturture. use the whip to get it in place quickly.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

If you try to make all of your cities those hybrid jack-of-all-trade cities where you build every building available in every city, you will have a weaker economy, specialists or not.

City specialization means pick a science city and build only science buildings and science (well, and health and happy buildings, too, but those go in any city that needs more). Limit unit production to your high production cities. Limit commerce improvements to your high commerce cities. Make your cities have a special focus.

Building too many wonders means that other builds don't happen. An early wonder that costs 800 can build ten swordsmen (80 each at normal speed.) Ten swordsmen can easily capture a wonder from a nearby AI in the early game.

It may not be an exact relation for the whole game, but keep in mind that a decision to build a wonder will cost you around ten good modern units on average (or it will cost you 1-2 techs if it is a science city). Make sure the wonder will pay you back more than the production you are diverting into the wonder.

Any commerce or science city could use cottages. Just make sure you have enough food and happiness to support the population to work as many cottages as possible in your commerce cities.

Production cities don't contribute much to your commerce, so don't bother with cottages if you have the ability to improve production instead (farms and mines, workshops, forge, etc.)

 

[Shoot the Moon]

What about with cities? I was trying to keep science at 100% thats why I put some of those cities around a lot of resources. So I could get the most out of them and keep science at 100%. I've seen a lot of people say you only need to keep science at 60%, though. What do you think?

Keeping the science slider at 100% is not very important, and a lot of the time is actually hurtful. If you can keep it that high, that means you have a lot of room for expansion. Just remember that 100% of 50 is less than 50% of 200 (for example).

 

[coffeeholic]

I didn't check out your save game but city specialization is key. I used to build too many cottages and not enough farms.

Try to find a spot with lots of food and lots of hills for a production city. Then build farms and mines exclusively.

On a spot with lots of food (possibly your capital) build lots of cottages and make that your commerce city. Build any financial buildings (market, bank, grocer ect).

Think about an early war with a neighbor. If you can double your land early on you will be able to keep the lead on the AIs. This doesn't mean that you have to be a war monger for the whole game, just use this strategy to gain some land early on. I usually try to have 1 early war to get land, then I sit back and focus on my cities. Then I start stockpiling units when I get to riflemen, cannon and cavalry. I especially enjoy a late war with a strong AI (tanks, helicopters, bombers, infantry)

AJK

 

[Winston Hughes]

Okay, I've looked at the first save (510bc). Not a bad start, but the sources of your future problems are already apparent at this stage.

1) Workers.

You haven't built enough of them, and the ones you have built haven't been used very effectively.

Food (enough to keep your cities growing) and strategic resources come first. Hook up copper, horses or iron asap so you can build better troops. Then chop forests for the settlers, workers, troops, and vital buildings that you need to get a strong early empire.

Add cottages and mines as your cities start to produce enough food to keep growing whilst working the new improvements. Try to ensure that you never work an unimproved tile (forests count as improved tiles, but are better chopped than worked in most cases). Leave roads 'til last, unless there's a pressing need to connect something. New cities don't need to be connected right away; you can wait until they need a resource for happiness or troop building.

2) Exploration and Expansion.

Explore more and expand faster. You could have four cities settled and another 1-2 on their way (settlers en route or being built) by this stage. Land is power. You also need to learn more about your continent and your neighbours, to inform future expansion and diplomatic choices.

3) Economy.

Pottery! Granaries are the single most important building in many cities. Faster growth equals more tiles worked and more population to whip. Cottages are also vital (unless you're going to run a specialist economy, but I wouldn't advise that 'til you've got a good understanding of the cottage economy). The earlier you get them online, being worked by your cities, the quicker they'll start to produce the big money.

Slavery! Caste system is great for blasting out the GPs, but you don't need them as much as you need fast production, and that's what slavery gives you. Being spiritual, you can always switch to Caste System for a few turns to grab a GP faster when needed. But at this stage you need settlers, workers and troops, and frequent use of the whip is the best way to get them. Let your cities grow to their happy cap, then whip away two or three citizens. Wait for the population to grow back, and for whip unhappiness to subside, then whip again. This is the main reason why granaries are so important.

Builds! Workers, settlers and troops (to escort the settlers and defend against barbs) to expand peacefully. Or workers, troops, troops and more troops (hook up that copper) to expand by war. Granaries should be built (and whipped/chopped) asap to speed up the whole process.

Also, for the most part, Libraries/Madrassas are only needed when you've got the commerce to get a significant benefit from them. First, build what you need now. Second, build what would be useful now. Third, build what you'll need in the future. Only then should you build things that will be useful in the future. At the time of this save what you need is more cities, more workers, and more troops. Libraries/Madrassas fall into the last category (except, perhaps, in one city for the specialists' GP points).

Overall, you're not playing terribly badly by any means, but you need to brush up on some of the basic ideas of economy and empire building. I would agree with the others in suggesting that you avoid wonders for the time being. They can be immensely powerful, but you need to learn how to play without relying on them. Getting the basics right is what wins you games at this level; wonders just help the process along.

Hope that helps.

 

[yahn]

Thank you all for your help. I started playing a new game and followed your suggestions and even though I made a few pretty big mistakes I feel I'm pretty much dominating the map. It's still only 1400ADish, but I have a pretty good feeling.
I'll post some saves later. Hopefully someone can tell me if I got this cottage thing right. I put them just about everywhere in this game.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

This thread could have been written for me. I'm also struggling on Noble, except that I don't tend to build wonders (kept getting pipped at the post) and I cottage a lot. The only ways I'm going wrong - that I can see - are:

a. concentrating too much on defence before offence, ie too many defensive units in cities way behind the front line;
b. building cities too far apart.

Is the "three cities by 500BC" a good rule of thumb to work by?


[Sorry, couldn't open the saves, as I don't have Warlords.]

[PS That tip about not worrying about being behind the AI was a great one. ]

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

b. building cities too far apart.

Is the "three cities by 500BC" a good rule of thumb to work by?

yes and no. depends on the map. if you have good land (resources iron, copper, horses) and you need to race for it with the ai. then it is probably better to have more. otherwise its ok. but at 500bc you should be on your way to setlle/capture more cities. 1AD I think you should have 5/6 cities. either peacefully are by war. Then you should be able to comfartable aim for your victory.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

Well, I don't know whether it was luck or the "3 by 500" rule, but I tried it on my latest game and it paid off. The luck came from the fact that it was just me and the Americans on a small continent, and I was able to rush them with axes and swords (and cats). I got my three cities in place in time, bagged the iron and set about mincing Roosevelt's archers. Took a bit of time, but I had the whole continent to myself.

It's now about 1750AD and, for the first time since starting at Noble level, I have a points lead. Not sure if I have a tech lead or not, but I'm up with the others. Caesar is ahead on military techs, but he is Pleased with me and he's on the other continent, anyway.

What I don't want to do is mess up the endgame. Any tips? I can post a screenshot if you like, but a save won't be any use unless you're running CivGold (and probably not even then, since I'm Mac-based).

 

[LucyDuke]

What I don't want to do is mess up the endgame. Any tips? I can post a screenshot if you like, but a save won't be any use unless you're running CivGold (and probably not even then, since I'm Mac-based).

A couple of screenshots is a great idea. It's easier to tell what you're dealing with, and most importantly, tells the things you might be leaving out.

My tip would be to pick a goal and focus on it. If you don't have any particular objective, you tend to sort of fizzle on several different tasks, not really getting anything done. Pick a target and gear up for a war, or work on specializing your cities, or try to beef up your cash flow. Whatever it may be, do something specific.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

You have your own continent? your wel on your way to become the ruler of the world

build your infrastructure. get universities and factories up. cottage spam (bit late) and farm when nescecary to optimize land ussage. change grasland hilmines to windmills for larger pop. railroad.
factories for producing units (replace those old ones. unles they have good promotions. its a lot cheaper) and if you can outproduce the ai. you don't need a large army, you can build one when nesscacary. just keep enough in reserve to react to the initial treath. if going for a space race. build banks.
build a navy, (I often forget, and it is annoying to get rid of an ai on your land).

next time, try 3 cities at 1000BC

 

[LucyDuke]

build a navy, (I often forget, and it is annoying to get rid of an ai on your land).

That's a good one. Nothing (well, not much) feels better than having the world's most powerful navy and being able to knock off an attempted invasion before it even crosses the ocean. If you've got your own continent, you want to keep it to yourself!

 

[OscarWildebeest]

You have your own continent? your wel on your way to become the ruler of the world

build your infrastructure. get universities and factories up. cottage spam (bit late) and farm when nescecary to optimize land ussage. change grasland hilmines to windmills for larger pop. railroad.
factories for producing units (replace those old ones. unles they have good promotions. its a lot cheaper) and if you can outproduce the ai. you don't need a large army, you can build one when nesscacary. just keep enough in reserve to react to the initial treath. if going for a space race. build banks.
build a navy, (I often forget, and it is annoying to get rid of an ai on your land).

next time, try 3 cities at 1000BC

Thanks, I will!

I'm on course for most of that - I cottage spammed early (I'm playing Qin, who is Financial) and I'm building Universities now. I've built several windmills (on grass hills). I'm also building Banks.

Do I need to keep producing military units, even if I just station them in cities? I don't want the AI thinking I'm a pushover.

What would I do with my navy? And which victory should I be going for? It's a little late for Cultural and I've never been good at Conquest.

 

[LucyDuke]

And which victory should I be going for? It's a little late for Cultural and I've never been good at Conquest.

It sounds like you're well on your way for a launch. Keep an eye on the Caravels that come to visit your shores - they're usually dropping off spies, which can bite you in the ass later. I've declared war just to take out a suspicious Caravel. (Though you might let your friends get away with it for tech trades later.) With a strong enough navy, it's possible. Your navy will be for defense - a good navy makes most other factors irrelevant. A stack of doom is neutralized by the bottom of the ocean.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

if your not conguering, you only need 1 citie to produce units. preferable your HE citie. he can replace your absolute units. what good are units with cover promotions against tanks? its always good to have the best defence in your cities. 3/4 units a city. And to have a modern fast response stack. besides Your HE city ussually isn't good for anything else, till the space race begins and it is used to build the most expensive parts. The more modern your units the better for your powergraph. you should be able to dwarf ceasars powergraph.

I ussually build universaties as soon as possible. before banks, but after markets/courthouses.
What to do with your navy? keeping invasions out of course. protect your sea resources. or when invading with marines, to blow up the defences of the citie your going to invade and protect those ships carriyng them.
And as lucy said it feels good to have the most powerfull navy in the world. throw in for fun several carriers with fighters, and you have a navy you don't want near you.
easyiest victory would be spacerace. rocketry-satalites-robotics (for space elevator)

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

possible. A stack of doom is neutralized by the bottom of the ocean.

so true. and so annoying if it happens to yourself.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

We're getting into specifics again, but I have a long coastline and I wonder how I can most effectively patrol it, given that you can't see ships coming until they're almost on top of you.

(And someone else circumnavigated before I did, so someone out there has a speed advantage over me... No, I don't know who, it was "an unknown civ".)

 

[LucyDuke]

We're getting into specifics again, but I have a long coastline and I wonder how I can most effectively patrol it, given that you can't see ships coming until they're almost on top of you.

(And someone else circumnavigated before I did, so someone out there has a speed advantage over me... No, I don't know who, it was "an unknown civ".)

Loads of boats. Drydocks + barracks = 6xp new boats, you can get a Visibility +1 promotion, to cut down on the number you need to sentry. Now I really want to see - could you please post a screenshot?